Tempo fluctuations

I was listening to a recording I did at a gig recently, and wasn't happy with my time on one song. To me, it didn't really sit properly in some parts.

Checking it against the metronome just now, the overall tempo was 108 bpm, and for the most part it stayed at that. By the end it was 107bpm, but during the course of the song, I noticed it fluctuated up and down. Like going to the chorus, I noticed it went down by about 3bpm for a couple of bars, and just one fill I did went up to 110/111.( [img]eek.gif[/img] )

How much in bpm do you think is acceptable to fluctuate by? When playing, it's sometimes hard to gauge how much the time moves by. Personally, I don't think it's acceptable at all and it pisses me off everytime I listen to it. ( * gets metronome out and sheds some more *)

I wouldn't normally brave it and talk about my weak points ike this, but I figured, what the heck, it's a drum forum where everyone is cool, so I don't mind. I'm always one to criticise my playing before anyone else does, so what better place to get advice than here for self improvement. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 08, 2004 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

Go to my post on time keeping.
This is a great topic!
Time Keeping

Hope that helps...

Thanks very much blake. I just got home, so I'll read that thread now. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

While I'm reading it, it's great to see this has been discussed and I'm not alone here. Phew!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 08, 2004 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

...ALWAYS practice with a drum machine, Beat Bug, or metronome [img]wink.gif[/img] ...that's the cold, hard facts of reality that I had to learn m'self....

Yeah fuse, I know you're right. As much as I've done stuff with click, I've never really shedded for hours on a regular basis purely with a metronome for timekeeping, and this is what I must do. In my band, a lot of stuff we play requires 4 to the floor, and I'm fine with that, it anchors me. I think when there's other bass drum patterns, I tend to fluctuate due to there being more space left between strokes. To be fair to myself, I remember feeling uncomfortable when I actually played the song in question and kind of felt I wasn't nailing it as well as the others, and felt very comfortable on everything else. Though unfortunately, I didn't record the other songs to be able to really know how they sounded.

It sounds like you don't play Jazz, so I would seriously consider buying some In Ear monitors, not the whole package, just the earphones and hooking them into a metronome and playing to a click. That's what I do, and people always come up and say, man you guys are TIGHT. Especially if you do four on the floor. But I'm not sure what kind of music you play and I know some people think it's a crutch but hey, my time is perfect every show. My bands play acoustic rock.

Yeah, I used my rhythm watch with earplugs on one gig, but the thing is, we play segue for a whole set at a time, plus, we don't always stick to exactly the same order of songs, so it didn't really work out.

By the way, I just listened to gadd playing a live version of '50 ways'. He does his paradiddle fill and slightly races on it, plus comes back on the next backbeat a little late. Kind of what I did. Lol, I feel better now [img]tongue.gif[/img]
here it is:
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/sgad...gadd50live.mp3

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 08, 2004 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

To give you an idea, here's 2 sections of another song I played, where there's also varispeed. Tell me what you think, good and bad.

http://freespace.virgin.net/roman.five/little.mp3

http://freespace.virgin.net/roman.five/little3.mp3

Quote:

---

By the way, I just listened to gadd playing a live version of '50 ways'. He does his paradiddle fill and slightly races on it, plus comes back on the next backbeat a little late. Kind of what I did. Lol, I feel better now
here it is:

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Classic Gadd, from the Live In Central Park concert in 1981. I first heard that about about 15 years ago and was weened on Gadds playing from that album when I was a young pup! I LOVE it!
The main thing with all this is does it FEEL good? Obviously if things speed up like f*ck or REALLY drag, that's no good, but as I said in my post last time, listen to Cameleon! That is a classic track and yet it speeds up like crazy. The point is it feels good.
As for that Gadd lick, the fact that he hasn't got absolute metronomic time does matter - NO DRUMMER has, FACT!! Why? Because we're human beings and by our very nature, we don't have the perfection of a drum machine or metronome. As long as something is grooving and feeling good then we've done our job. If we DO want metronomic time then we play to a click.

Hi dazzler,
Nice comments, to your usual standard from what I've enjoyed reading of your posts [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Yeah, chameleon is a classic harvey track. I couldn't believe it when I first heard how much he sped up. I know that herbie hancock was happy with it's feel and didn't wanna rerecord it.

So, listening to the mp3's of me, what is your verdict about the timing? As far as tightness of my playing in those, I know it wasn't my best,I can do better, but as far as the time movement, I'm wondering what you thought? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Cheers for your comments - My usual standard eh?! You didn't actually specify what level the standard might actually be!! hehe [img]wink.gif[/img]
As for your two exapmles, they sound fine to me mate. I played the first few bars, then forwarded to the end of the clip and the tempo didn't seem to budge. Your percussionist is quite busy I thought, but that was just an observation. Do you think he gets in the way of things or are you happy with the space you've all got to work in?
As for your groove and feel, very nice I thought. As you know, that type of music needs a PHAT 2&4 and nothing much else really. You can keep your blushdas under your bed!!

Nice one mate [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Thanks dazzler. Lol, blushdas, tell me about them!

Well, the percussion does come across fairly loud in that mix, and I think that makes him sound busier. It's really great working with him. We're both normally very empathetic to each other's playing, and we tend to leave space for each other. I've played with some deps that have come in, and they've just gone off on one, not really listening to me as much.
I appreciate you saying that my time doesn't really budge, thanks. My main concern though is the general uneveness of it from bar to bar, cos what I want to hear is the backbeat coming down in the same sweetspot every time. What I hear is backbeats sitting for a few, coming in a bit late for a few, and a lot that seem to be pushing too much on top, almost speeding away. Playing fills and coming back to the backbeat early or late, and playing a crash and coming in early or late. What I tried today was making myself actually look at my hands for every stroke I played, plus I whispered the fills as I played them, and sang the groove as I played it. That seemed to help a little, I must say. Only problem with that is, it's a bit of a pain in the ass doing it!

Ah, I meant your usual standard of comments/posts in a good way [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 09, 2004 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

It's interesting really. I was just telling my students today, a couple of which are having real trouble playing to a track in time, how utterly important it is for a drummer to keep good time, know where they are in a bar (you'd be surprised how many can't hear beat 1!) and to make their groove FEEL good.
As an exercise may I suggest that you take a song in your set, say for example 'a little less conversation" and next time you play it, just play the simplest beat you can. That would be 2&4 on the snare and 1&3 on the BD. (I don't mean to sound condescending in any way, honestly! as this is something I sometimes do) and really try to make it feel and sound good. I can't think how many countless classic tunes there are where the drummer just plays 1&3 on his bass drum and the whole song sounds so good!
This can be your job - to make every backbeat consistant (whether you're rimshotting or not), that the fills are in time and don't rush, that all the limbs and sounds are balanced in the way you'd like to hear them and that you overall contribute to the feel of the tune. This is easier said than done and stripping everything down to its lowest common denominator can not only make us concentrate on playing simply, musically, with taste and feeling, but will also help to show up any inadequcies in our playing.

Yeah dazzler, very good idea, I actually will try that next gig. What I will also continue to do is monitor my playing by recording every gig I do.

It always amazes me when I hear players playing the most complex stuff, yet every beat is perfectly in time. This is the thing I'm eternally striving for.
Cheers for your help. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Rudy,

You sound great! I "feel" the time thing you're talking about, and I actually think it's the bass player pushing the feel/speed.

Keep it up!!

Danny

Thanks danny.
Well, as nice as it would be for me to blame the bass player, and perhaps his time isn't great,( though he's certainly comfy to work with), I know the things I don't like hearing are all me, or certainly, 99% me.

That's another thing though. I can never really tell when someone else in the band has good or bad time, cos I'm not confident enough with mine I guess. The only thing I know for sure is that our keyboard player does rush quite a bit.

Ever try practicing with the entire band where everyone hears the click? Now THAT'S an interesting experience...

Don't know if saw or remember, but the video of Sting's 1st record shows them all playing to a click. They had one of the visual click/metronomes where everyone could "see" the tempo.

Cheers, Rudy! [Hang on to your hats, mates, as i'm actually going to step out of my usual comic tone..."Gadds!"]...
I always appreciate your honesty, integrity, & humility in the introspective content of your posts... [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

As to your "lookg at your hands" & all that & whatnot, i would say [as it applies to me] that that is fine for practice, but when playg live w a group, i would rather tend to shut my eyes & really concentrate on actually really hearing the band - listening where the backbeat falls in relation to the other members' parts...this can teach you to feel the groove correctly..of course, it helps playg w others who have the same level of give & take & concept of time within the groove. [altho naturally you wouldn't want to have your eyes shut during a cue'd section!] ;o)

I hear what u r saying about Gadd's fill; altho i'd say he was rushing the "2" & "4" a little...& i don't hear the next backbeat as all that late per se; it's just the classic Gadd "feeling" [img]wink.gif[/img] ...altho i'd say those notes on the kick b4 that actual fill [on the & of 1, e of 2, & the 3 - right aft those "partial Stv Smith Separate Ways" groupings" [img]wink.gif[/img] ] are more of the classic "Gadd-Drag" feel, but - so what! It still feels good! [Paul, Art, & the band don't seem to mind]... ;o)

Weckl is one of the monsters to listen to for the spot on time w the click...

LAD's point about the whole band hearing the click...it's funny, i used to hear stuff that was off & really freak out about it...sometimes it IS one of the other players rushing [or the like], & it actually makes the drummer sound like he's dragging because of the fact that the drums tend to be the ear's most predominant factor in placing the beat [to the listener's ear]! So naturally, the drummer gets the "layman's blame"...it can drive ya crazy when you play in situations like that.
I play w a gtrst who has great time; he practices w a click all the time. But when we record our "jams," he cannot play along w me [i'm listening to the click in the cans - he's not] withOUT rushing at times [of course, he also likes those psycho, "come over at 10 p & marathon it w a couple breaks/pots of coffee until 5 a [img]eek.gif[/img] " - sorry charlie! - later on, how good is your meter gonna be at THAT hour, aft all that?! Can't see thru all the RED[bloodshot]...
...but let him listen to the click also [at sme time], & his time improves drastically [go figure]...[of course, then all one has to master is listening to the what the drums are doing AND to where the click is, at the same time, & doing this does just that ;o)]...
I remember going back & listen to certain things over & over, driving myself crazy, until i could hear that the disparagemnent was because of the offset of what each of us was playing [the difference in each's "feeling" of certain notes]....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 10, 2004 06:01 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Hey fuse, thanks for your great post man. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I hear what you're saying completely about timing synching up with the others, and that sort of 'out of time' effect if someone else is rushing. I get that too, and I concluded recently that the keyboard player contributes mostly to this happening, especially when it's his turn to take a solo. He tends to rush away in parts of his solo, making some of my beats sound as though they're dragging behind him and out of time. Also, one of our singers phrasing isn't so hot, and he also rushes his words a little, giving the same effect.

However, none of us are perfect as we know, and I'm still guilty of rushing and dragging my beats. It just so happens though that when I do, everyone follows me, so it tends to all sound in time. I just don't happen to follow anyone else when THEY do it [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But to me, the groove is just not as groovy when I do that. The way I always test myself is tapping 1/4 notes or 1/8ths with my left hand on my knee as I listen back to my playing. When I do this listening to other drummers on CD's, my hand falls exactly with their beat. When I do it to my playing, my hand and the beats I played on the recording don't always match up, if you see what I mean. When they match up 99% of the time, I'll be happy. [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

Or am I being too paranoid and overly concerned? I mean, I hear grooves so well in my head, why can't I put it down on the drums exactly as I hear it? I don't mean chopswise, just timewise as I hear it.
I'm wondering if my time would be spot on with a technique adjustment, as opposed to a metronome.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 10, 2004 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

for me, developing good time happened the most when i started recording in the studio.

we have all practice with metronomes, either by ourselves or live with sequences ect.this totally helps, but recording with a click is in my opinion the best way to see whats up. for me, i went through the exact same thought process when analizing my time.

knowing i had to improve i did what everyone suggested, but in a live setting with 3 or 4 other players. it's hard to determine who or what is the culprit.

a bass player or percussionist rushing slightly can make you feel like you are dragging a bit. then it starts, you feel like your dragging and then bump it up a hair.

then you might actually be speeding up a bit trying to compensate for the odd feeling you had. needless to say, this is no fun for anybody. i remember playing with a bass player that always felt everything a hair faster than i did.

if i moved to him he would move the same amount ahead of me, it was a nightmare until i decided not to move at all, try to keep it centered. i'll admit it's not exactly the ideal thing to do for a killer groove, ie "ignore the bass players pulse"

stellar grooves have both the bass player and drummer working together to create the foundation. but it's what i had to do to hold the fort.

with experience, you get to feel how other musicians internal pulse feels. how it relates to your's and how to exude different feeling pulses.

the masters do this without anyone knowing.

anyway, back to recording with a click.

if you can get a 4 or 8 track and start recording yourself with a click, with and without your bandmates at the same time. you'll see eveything under the microscope.

tape don't lie. pay attention to song transitonal changes ie: verse, to bridge, to chorus, back to verse ect. i was amazed at what havoc insued when volume and intesity equated to slight tempo changes for each member of the band.

try to give yourself a click that has important subdivisions for each songs feel. untill you are totally confident with your timing, quarters for a click might leave too much room for error especially if things like fills are suspect.

the more subdivisions when practicing anything the better.

if you record as much of your own practicing with a click at same time as possible, you will go through a time warp. it becomes obvious where and what causes the timing infractions.

it should also be mentioned that having totally clean, even hands and feet helps immensly when trying to play perfectly in time.

uneven hands can screw up the simplest fill if your left hand is weaker that the right. that's why we all like playing 1 and 3,on kick 2 and 4 on snare.

good luck

chris perra

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ February 13, 2004 04:21 AM: Message edited by: chris perra ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 13, 2004 04:24 AM: Message edited by: chris perra ]</font>

..."with experience, you get to feel how other musicians internal pulse feels. how it relates to your's and how to exude different feeling pulses...
the masters do this without anyone knowing"...

Great post, Chris.

Now, even though i continuously strive for it, i wouldnt exactly say that i have perfect "Weckl timing" 100% of the time [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] or anything [ESP when playing withOUT a click - which isn't often, if i can help it], but...

...I played in a showband w a really good gtrst for 3 yrs. He would disagree w me over the tempos, & eventually to the point where he would "vibe" me on stage in front of the audience...[you know what i mean - the faces, gestures; stomping his foot, etc]...the bandleader had to get on him...

...now, dont get me wrong, he had good time...but sometimes, 2 or more diff players who have "good time" when you listen to them on their own or in 1 certain situation can sound completely diff when paired together with diff [combinations of] players [i know, i know - if a player has good time/is a great listener/gives & takes, then they have good time]...I kept telling him that since his feel was so on/on top/bright, that for me to "keep up with him" [as he would sternly "request" - yeah, right?] meant that the whole thing sounded top heavy & rushing, & he would "fight me on it." & it got heated at times.

So, i started gathering copies of videos from fans who would come up & tell us that they "cam'ed set[s] so-&-so." Then, i'd watch them, & make an honest assessment of what was going on. Then, I'd show them to him. Well, aft the first time of showing him diff spots in a couple of sets, he relented. Our last gig together was a 10 or 12 day event, & sometime during the last 3 days or so, he approached me & said that our groove together was finally consistent aft 3 yrs, & felt really good [it wasnt all that bad the whole time, really, when listening back to a few tapes & VHS's over the yrs; he would just freak], & that i was right the whole time, that he shouldve just "relaxed & went w the flow," instead of trying to fight me at every turn in the groove...this last line is IMPERATIVE for all musicians...on the bandstand, if the time isnt exactly where one wants or perceives it to be, just simply relax & listen to where it IS & make the proper mental [awa physical] adjustments, instead of contributing to a tug of war with the freekin drummer!! The time wont be nearly as bad as if one DOES "fight" w the other players. It is very important that everyone LISTEN to EACH OTHER, even in the perceived "simplest" of tunes [this all goes back to what chris said]. [I know this is nothing new to most everyone here.]

Anyway, just one little take I'd thought I'd post...thx for lettin' me "vent". [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 13, 2004 04:51 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Thanks chris for your post, some great advice. I have to say though that when I started this thread, I was never under any illusion that my particular tempo problems were to do with the other players. As far as I can see, this has nothing really to do with other players making me rush or drag, this has to do with me fluctuating due to unevenness in my own playing. I've tested this by just listening back to myself playing beats, just me and the drumkit and noone else, and I can hear when downbeats and fills are are not sitting right. I just have to work on it more I guess. I can get away with murder doing gigs, but in a recording situation, there's little room for rushing and dragging. [img]redface.gif[/img]

i didn't mean to come across as it must be the other guys fault. that can be an attitude that can cause pletny of problems as well.

for me timing problems are primarily caused by not physically having complete command of what i'm playing.

to me it comes down to clean hands and feet to begin with, then a solid feeling of the pulse, then the ability to get past thinking about the hands and feet.

this is the hard part.


pushing and pulling from band mates can effect things internally. potentially mucking with your pulse.

getting to the point where muscle memory wise you don't have to intentionally control each stroke is the only way i can be as certain as i can.

to train for this , recording with a click gives you the reference point to fine tune the muscle memory needed to play gigs live,clickless, with a solid internal pulse.

it takes awhile to be able to play any groove at any tempo effortlessly without thinking about it.

that's what we all strive for.


chris perra