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I simply want to list the Best Reasons on both sides of the Issue of "Reparations for African Americans" that I have heard, and let HostBoard browsers who read BOTH the pro's and cons give their opinion. (please read both pro's and con's before responding)
Please place no special significance on the order of Pro and Cons as they are presented by me on the issue of Reparations for African Americans.
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Here is a list of "No to Reparations for African Americans" comments I have heard or thought of........(to be followed by a "Yes" list)
.......The real victims have long since passed on....they are the only ones truly eligible for reparations.
......All African Americans who currently reside in the United States ARE SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER OFF than if they had never come to the United States at all. ...since it is pretty obvious that African Americans are better off in the United States than if they had stayed in Africa and never come over, African Americans deserve no financial reparations since they are already better off than if they had stayed in Africa.
.......If African Americans want to go back to Africa, they can be eligible for Reparations. However, if African Amercans want to stay in America, because they like it better in America, than they are NOT eligible for Reparations because "They Can't Have their Cake and Eat it too"...
If African Americans get Reparations, then you open up a "Pandora's Box" and every group will be asking for money for events that have long since past.
Why don't the Rich African American Elite do more to help other African Americans?
Calling any a group a victim further victimizes them...and in the end diminishes African Americans in the eyes of others, and will ironically hinder their growth in the future even more so than the check they receive.
The giving of Reparation checks will be viewed as a form of Welfare or as a "Shakedown" by African American Leaders such as Jessie Jackson and Johnny Cochrane.
It was the African Leaders 200 years ago who profited by the completely voluntary action of selling their own people into slavery. If Any Reparations are to go to African Americans, it should come from Africa itself for the despicable act they committed by selling their own people into slavery.
If African Americans are owed Reparations, then we might as well return the whole continent of America back to the American Indian, perhaps the biggest Victim of all in the Issue of Reparations.
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Here is a list of "Yes to Reparations for African Americans" comments I have heard or thought of ....
Blacks created Wealth for every other group in the United States while they received less than scraps for their own hard work.
As Blacks continued to be denied their own legitimate opportunities to economically grow, they fell further and further behind other cultures economically, and could not fairly compete to improve their own lot in life...
Ongoing familial instability endemic in the African-American Community was caused by poor economic conditions and civil rights violations dating back 200 years ago. Familial and Economic instability, lack of voting rights, and minimal educational opportunities created by the early enslavement of African-Americans in America resulted in each successive generation of African-Americans being unfairly held back from developing their own businesses and culture.
African Americans never were given the freedom to establish a "Safe-Harbor" in the United States from which to grow and prosper.
African Americans are THE ONLY SLAVE GROUP in the History of the World that were taken to a different continent than the one they grew up in...this type of "handicap" can never be fully understood since it cannot be compared to anything else. Other cultures carefully planned their voyages to America, had help from relatives in their original homeland, and once established in America, (with the help of Black Slavery) sent money back to their homelands, AND ensured that any family member from their own homeland who wanted to come to America would immediately be immersed into America with Constitutional, Voting and Educational Rights, all rights denied to African American Slaves. Not only did African Americans not receive any of the benefits other cultures received once in they arrived in the United States, African Americans created wealth for others thus making it even harder for them to ever compete against the very people they helped get wealthy.
The loss of wealth early on meant very little in the way of inheritances was ever passed on, further sealing the fate of each successive generation of African Americans.
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Proposed Solutions for the Reparations issue.....
.........Do nothing now, it's too late, and frankly, in the 21st century, anyone who wants to work and "make it" in America can....and that is the most important issue of all.
.........If Reparations are to be made, they should be in the form of Increased Educational opportunities for African-Americans, (perhaps free college to any African American wanting it for the next decade. Increased Health-Care Coverage should also be considered.
........If Reparations are to be made, they should go to the Continent of Africa, and not African Americans, since the continent of Africa was the one harmed by the loss of their own Able bodied Citizens and the Destruction of the Family Unit and Culture.
.........Make a Check payable to ........ every African American living in the United States and lets move on.
........Reparations to African Americans in the United States and in Africa are mutually exclusive, what ever one faction gets has no bearing on what the other faction gets.
.......More important than the issue of Reparations to African-Americans now living is the issue of GIVING THE PROPER CREDIT to the history of African-Americans who have now passed on without ever being properly credited for their tremendous inventions and innovations throughout American History. Spend the money slated for Reparations on Repairing and creating a detailed and accurate Historical account of African-Americans since their arrival in the United States over 200 hundred years ago.
To do nothing is unacceptable!
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Wow, what an explosive issue.
-Alex
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[This message has been edited by Alex (edited September 10, 2001).]
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I watch this topic post go unresponded to, and it saddens me.
As I wrote it, I felt like I was transported back in time to High School or College and was writing a report.
Sadly, the teacher never came to grade it or simply share their feedback. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/confused.gif
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-Alex
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I think that is an issue that an will never be decided upon, thus being no by default.
If people want reparations they should do something aout it. But since the majority of people do nothing, nothing will happen.
How does one decide about such a thing anyway?
Even IF it was decided to give reparations, who would get it, and how much would they get?
Would you get more if you were more black?
I think it would be more trouble than it is worth.
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Just thought I'd kick this back up to the top.
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Alex
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what a scary decision.
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They should get nothing.
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"Lopedog dont ride for no trickass bitches" -Lopedog from "Frezno Smooth"
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of course, couldn't this issue also apply to the 'survivors' of the holocaust--i mean, isn't the offspring of the survivors suing the big governments on the same issue?
should they be included?
i have thought a while on this. even waaaaaay before this thread came to be.
like tastingood, i do not understand restitution for 'situational circumstances' as this, and i feel that they deserve nothing.
my answer is more detailed than what i posted. but i thought i'd just get the big points down first. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
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I'd have to say that I agree with the "no reparations" side of the argument.
One thing that hasn't been brought up is that none of the white people in America, nor the current people in the government are in any way, shape, or form responsible for slavery. I'm surprised this isn't raised as an argument.
Speaking from personal experience, I've never treated an African American as though they were "below" me, so I really have to say that I don't feel like I owe anyone anything. Maybe this is selfish, but the way I was raised was to treat people equally, and so I feel no other personal obligation to the comfort of others.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A Lurker:
I'd have to say that I agree with the "no reparations" side of the argument.
One thing that hasn't been brought up is that none of the white people in America, nor the current people in the government are in any way, shape, or form responsible for slavery. I'm surprised this isn't raised as an argument.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I believe it was brought up.
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Alex
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ooops, sorry, I meant explicitly. Yeah, I agree, it's implied where you state that all the victims have passed on. All I meant was that so have the perpetrators. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:
Blacks created Wealth for every other group in the United States while they received less than scraps for their own hard work.
As Blacks continued to be denied their own legitimate opportunities to economically grow, they fell further and further behind other cultures economically, and could not fairly compete to improve their own lot in life...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Alex
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Black people probably are owed something in the U.S. but simply cutting a check most likely would not be the answer. It would come from the taxpayer's pocket and so many those who would pay would be from families who arrived since the abolition of slavery. No one could argue that a family who just got here should be given that resposibilty. It should have happened a hundred years ago. There may be another answer, but a check wouldn't be the end of anything, and I'm afraid it would ultimately cause more harm than good. Positive change will have to come from within the black community as it can't be handed to them in the form of cash. I feel the largest problems facing the black communitues come from within and not from the lack of a check which could almost be viewed as an insult in some ways.
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PRM
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May I? As a French-born South African, I can say that recently, after abolishing "apartheid" in SA, we were faced with a kinda similar question of "reparation". It made no sense suddenly using the tax payers money to give millions each a relatively small amount of money to say "sorry" So we instituded a "Truth and Reconciliation Council" where everyone could explain their actions and ask forgiveness of those they had treated poorly and of their families etc. It worked beautifully! Much sadness ensued and anger was vented but it was in a controlled environment and as such problems were few and far inbetween.
Today I feel I can safely say that we are a True Nation of One people and most of the sad past is forgiven and forgotten http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
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That sounds like an excellent idea - especially since it gets to the heart of the matter: airing grievances and getting the emotions out that can be so harmful. This is as opposed to a check, which could be viewed as either reparation or (to some) payment to be silent and forget about their past.
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Never ask a man if he is from Texas. If he is, he will let you know. If he isn't there is no use in embarassing him.
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CyborgShaman: interesting thought. Being american, i haven't any idea myself what goes on in south africa, so this is all second hand.
a friend told me when he was in south africa recently he discovered that this view was very often held by the whites of south africa but not by the blacks.
i've discovered that this kind of thing is true in america: there is a very different view usually held by black and white citizens on the issue of race and reparations
personally i don't think i any general group anything. i've been judged before for being white, and had people i'd just met and tried to be friendly with get very upset and in my face with a "You Owe Me" attitude. I was upset by this. If I owe other people I've never met and never interacted with for the sins of my multiple great granparents, then what about the side of my family who fought tooth and nail against slavery, and after the civil war, fought just as hard for equal rights and education for black americans? and what about my native ancestors who suffered humiliations and slaughter by whites? does that mean i am owed reparations? No. I am not. And I don't think I owe people either. I do think there are people who are owed reparations, but that's for recent events. I don't think people owe or are owed anything for such an old and long past event.
*shrug* but that's just my two cents.
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namesake of a rascally tabby, courtesy of Eden
"Damn, tyle, I didn't know you contain atomic material."-Wiloe
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I myself being a white South African know that we cant change the past, what is being done to give all a chance at life is using the money for giving the people a better education, teaching drafts and agriculture, I think that alot of the lines of segregation are thinning and will one day disappear. RSA is the Rainbow Nation with many different people and culture and we seem to get along fine, I dont think reparations should be paid, just give the disadvantaged an education and a chance to do something with it.
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Un lugar Celestial, I know very little, yet sometimes too much.
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QUESTION:
what is meant by 'disadvantaged'?
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tyledras: Interesting perspective you bring to the argument and perhaps my ideas are "white only" http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif Strangely, not TRULY being part of the suppression, I was only happy to see what "seems" to be a resolution for our people? Those that I have approached indicated their satisfaction at the Truth & Reconciliation Council's intervention and that they had found a measure of comfort, they'd not have otherwise...
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SHATOUSHKA: In SA we constantly coin the phrase "previously disadvantaged" to denote the victims of apartheid who did not have similar opportunities for education and prosperity as their white "oppressors" I do not think this can be related to your situation in the USA really as it appears to have been a situation unique to SA. One thing though I do not understand about the USA: why keep the Native Americans in reservations? To me, they seem to be the disadvantaged in American Society. Am I wrong?
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(yea, reparations work very well.)
JANUARY 18, 14:23 ET
<h3>Militants Rampage in Zimbabwe</h3>
By ANGUS SHAW
Associated Press Writer
HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) ? Ruling party militants rampaged through farming districts in northern Zimbabwe Friday, in what the opposition said was an attempt to shut down the areas to its campaigners ahead of presidential elections.
Militants stormed white-owned farms, while members of the ruling party youth militia in green government-issue uniforms manned roadblocks to seal off districts to supporters of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change.
Welshman Ncube, the opposition party's third ranking official, accused President Robert Mugabe's party of creating ``no go areas'' for opposition supporters ahead of the vote scheduled for March 9 and 10.
``Such areas are being systematically extended ... there is no prospect of the elections being free and fair,'' he said.
Mugabe, fighting for his political survival after nearly 22 years in power, has cracked down on the opposition and pushed through legislation tightening security and electoral laws that favor his party.
On Friday, at least 100 slogan-chanting militants stormed a white-owned farm near Karoi, 130 miles northwest of Harare, the capital, demanding white owners immediately leave the property.
Three of nine black workers on the property were assaulted by assailants who smashed down fences and hurled stones at approaching vehicles, said farmer Terry Smit.
Other properties in the Karoi corn and tobacco district were targeted by militants who demanded owners pack up and go, some by the end of Friday, officials of the Commercial Farmers Union said.
Smit said militants drove workers from their homes and threw their belongings onto the road after accusing them of supporting the Movement for Democratic Change.
``They told me they were evicting me today. They are about 30 yards from my door,'' said Smit, speaking by telephone from his besieged farmstead. Drumbeats, singing and pro-government slogans were audible on the line.
Smit said threats of violence from militants intensified since an announcement earlier this month of presidential elections.
Some farm workers bought ruling party membership cards to help them pass through the militia checkpoints.
Without a card, ``you are humiliated. We were made to kneel in the road and beg to be let through and sing slogans,'' said an elderly white farm manager who asked not to be identified.
The youth militias have ignored government assurances that only police are permitted at roadblocks. Police have not prevented the militias throwing up checkpoints.
Since the start of the year government-backed militants have embarked on a fresh looting campaign of white-owned farms, forcing at least 23 landowners from their homes, the mainly white farmers' union says.
Police were on Friday unavailable for comment on violence.
Militants have invaded hundreds of white-owned farms since early 2000 with the tacit support of the government, which called their actions a justified response to inequitable land ownership left by colonial rule.
Most of Zimbabwe's commercial farmland is owned by whites who make up less than half a percent of the population.
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Ambivalent Obsessions
~Ignotum Per Ignotius~
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perhaps i am about to post a naive question. perhaps i should have read tard's post instead of holding out until after i post.
perhaps i should do a lot of things...
but who says we keep the native americans on reservations?
i suppose i am obvlivious to reality (being somewhere north of the stratus...) but doesn't oppression work both ways?
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Although I think something should be done, I don't think it's a check, or even some kind of apology.
I think full acknowledgement of the contributions and inventions blacks have contributed to the U.S. should be a start.
It's too bad that the leading producer in the U.S. of black programming...B.E.T., doesn't seem to have the fire in their belly to make this happen.
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Alex
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This was one of the earliest topics on DISCUSS THIS... which I never replied to because (whilst I read it and thought about it) I could really come up with a solution-by that, I mean a workable solution.
It's all very well to say "of course they deserve some form of reparation after ..." but the reality is, the people who are paying the money (all americans) are not responsible for the actions committed before their time to people who are most likely not even alive anymore.
In Australia, there's that whole 'Sorry' issue between the Aborigines and the white settlers. A) the people saying sorry have done nothing 'wrong' whilst the the aboringines are only decendents of people who were oppressed. Although I did sign the sorry petition, the more I think about it, the more I see it as rather useless because a) I have never been responsible (intentionally or directly) for the oppression of anyone.
b) What good does it do? It gives the Aboriginal people no monetary benefit. It supposedly gives recognition and that's all good and noble but it doesn't do anything FOR the aborigines because the will not be better for it.
Now I know that this a little off the original topic, but the situation is fairly similar. If the US government decided to be good and give reparations to the blacks, what's to stop the native Indians, Hispanics, Asians from applying for reparations. The government cannot refuse the other races because that would be seen as favouritism regardless of their original good intentions.
Then there's the problem of how to dispense money or whatever. There's inequality everywhere so whose to say who gets what share? It will seem like beaurocracy again if a white government is condescendingly appointing and assessing how large a portion one particular family is going to receive of the reparations pie.
The problems facing the world cannot just be solved with money. In many instances, more money makes it worse because nothing is being done structurally to eradicate the problem. If/when it doesn't help the plight of the african americans, they will be saying it was a cheque to clear the guilty conscience of the white supremists.
So consequently, nothing will be done because life is not fair and the politics of it all will prevent it from ever happening unless by some polling accident an extreme leftist is voted into parliament/congress whatever you guys have and decide to give reparations to the africans and return the land to the indians. But the odds of that happening...
SO this is why i never replied to this post alex, it's a circular argument which can never be solved.
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From Soulfilms: "It's all very well to say "of course they deserve some form of reparation after ..." but the reality is, the people who are paying the money (all americans) are not responsible for the actions committed before their time to people who are most likely not even alive anymore... [in Australia] the people saying sorry have done nothing 'wrong' whilst the aboringines are only decendents of people who were oppressed."
This was all I was trying to point out in my previous posts.
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why?
and secondly, speaking of unanswered questions...
howzabout answering mine?
doesn't oppression work two ways?
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what do you mean why?
and, who started the oppression?
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Alex
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In some ways the issue of generational tricledown is addressed in the idea that blacks in the U.S. are still better off than those currently living in most African nations. That may not sit well with many as a reason to avoid compensation but there is no denying the fact that people from all over the world want to come to the U.S. above all other countries because of the opportunities.
I think another similar topic that we'll be hearing more of is the possibility that large corporations that have roots in the old south that benefited from slave labor may be asked to pay the families of former slaves.
I will now say something that will shock a few.
Tha U.S.A. is the least racist country on the planet.
There I said it, and I can't take it back.
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PRM
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I gave numerous reasons for both sides of the coin. What I have noticed is those that are for no reparations never really address the numerous points I made about the "carryover" effect from one generation to the next.
I feel it is weak to just say well, the real victims are dead so what can we really do.
The first thing to really do is analyze what ripple effects have "carried over" from one generation to the next, and at least address those issues.
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Alex
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Is the United States the least Racist country on the planet?
...that would make a good topic post 8th man, go for it!
Shatzy, what two way oppression are you speakin of?
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Alex
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those who oppress, and those who are oppressed
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Well, I'm not following, are you implying that
African Americans are oppressors, of whom?
Even if that is the case, did it come before the issue I bring up? Perhaps you are referring to the African Americans in Africa who sold their countrymen and countrywomen into slavery.
It's still a puzzle to me as to what exactly you mean.
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Alex
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I think what 'Toushka is trying to get at is that there are the oppressors and the oppressed, and the oppressors can't do any oppressing without the oppressed.
Taking her example of Native Americans on reservations: she is saying that they seem to be allowing themselves to be pushed into a corner and kept there, when they COULD leave and join other communities in the US.
At least I think that's what she's getting at (please correct me if I'm wrong, 'Toushka).
In the case of the African Americans, the population ratio was definitely in favor of the African Americans, if memories of history class serve me. I have often wondered why the slaves didn't mount more revolts (I assume there were at least a few) since they outnumbered the slaveholders in many of the southern states. Therefore, the question can be posited: did they simply allow themselves to be opporessed? Does oppression work two ways?
In the case of Native American reservations, for two summers, I worked on an Apache reservation in Arizona for a week each time. I think the government supplies the housing and food, is that true? I'm curious if anyone has answers on that. But most of the people there seemed to have no interest in educating themselves beyond high school, and there were lots of run down houses, and lots of very young mothers, often with no dads. I'm not sure where the jobs were; I didn't get to see a whole lot of the surrounding area, other than desert, since that was what we were taken out to see when we had free time. So I don't really know, but it seemed as though many of the people were caught in a cycle that they couldn't or wouldn't break of having and raising children at young ages and just staying where they were because they felt as though they had no other choice.
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i couldn't have said it better...
though one might argue 'less words'...
tee hee
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hmmm... maybe it's 'cause we're branching into a different question?
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHATOUSHKA:
i couldn't have said it better...
though one might argue 'less words'...
tee hee
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now that confuses the heck out of me.
La Luna Unita's answer was a hybrid of pro-con of the original topic post.
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Alex
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Wow, My own life experiences in the last 6 months have given me a fresh perspective on this issue.
Never give reparations to anyone who has no plan.
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Hmmm, reparations for African Americans...such a touchy subject. Well, I guess since Native Americans, Jews, and Asian Americans have either received or are in the process of recieving some sort of reparation...then why not blacks, too. I mean African Americans have done so much (and continue to) shape the growth and culture of this country...more so than any other racial group in America. What's the hold up??? Why is it that America seems to forget the 40 acre and a mule promise? Weren't these "reparations" suppossed to be taken care of YEARS ago?
Now, I strongly disagree with handing out checks to every black person in america...that is ridiculous. (Every black person gets $200 upon birth in America!! What a fiasco.) An apology is a nice gesture, but hardly sufficient...nice try Pres. Clinton. I do believe that the worst 'crime' this coutry has committed against African Americans is the denial of education (Outside of ripping them from their homelands, lenching, beating, slaying, and raping of course.) So, in my humble opinion I feel that if this country seriously wants to make reparations (which it obviously doesn't), then it should be reflected in some way in the eduction system. Therefore, it will give African Americans the same advantage as everyone else, and in turn benefit the country on a whole. Isn't it supposed to be equal anyway???
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Wow, your first post at Hostboard on my forum. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Yeah, I think education is where it begins. Could you imagine reparations including scholarships to Harvard, Yale, USC.
Pretty trippy stuff.
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My opinion on this topic continues to form. I grow more and more against any reparation that is not education based.
I think Vietnam families that lost loved ones should be recompensated either simultaneously or before reparations are made to African Americans.
Why? First, African Americans would be represented in Viet Nam reparations, (perhaps in disporportionately larger numbers.) It appears that the root cause of Viet Nam may be endlessly debated, but that thing that is for certain is certain wealthy citizens of the U.S. profited by the Viet Nam War, and in the process shattered the family trees of hundreds of thousands of American Citizens.
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its simple:
rid this gawd-awful nation of capitalism...
viola
