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If the Captain goes down with their Ship...
....Then an Airplane Pilot CANNOT give up Control of their Airplane.
Should another HIJACKING happen, the Pilot must be protected at all costs, since the pilot may be the only one who can safely land the plane.
Most HIJACKERS up until the recent tragedy, want to be taken somewhere other than where the plane was headed....I am concerned that in the future, passengers will automatically assume any future HIJACKING is meant to take control of the plane for purposes of crashing it into something.
It is of the utmost importance that the Passengers not confuse their own role in the event of a HIJACKING.
The HIJACKERS AGENDA must be understood before passengers attempt any kind of action.
If the HIJACKER doesn't enter the cockpit, then there is no need for a passenger or for passengers to try something stupid like open the emergency doors to try and somehow crash the plane.
As long as the Airline Pilot stays in the Cockpit, and the Hijackers aren't in the Cockpit, there probably is no need to fear that the plane is going to be crashed into a building.
A HIJACKER can hold a passenger hostage if they truly want to HIJACK a plane....they don't ever have to be in the cockpit....PERIOD!
As long as the certified pilot remains in charge, AND NO HIJACKER IS IN THE COCKPIT, then we don't need passengers trying to be heroes.
So, the key is this, under no circumstance is someone who has tried to HIJACK a Plane ever allowed to REMAIN in the cockpit. Even if a HIJACKER should somehow gain access to the cockpit, ONLY IF THE HIJACKER DOES NOT RETREAT FROM THE COCKPIT should passengers consider removing the HIJACKER from the cockpit as an option.
Once the HIJACKER has entered the cockpit area, and chooses to stay there, than the passengers and the plane may consider the possibility that the plane they are in may be doomed to crash unless they take action.
In my opinion, a HIJACKER IN THE COCKPIT is the only time that passengers should ever attempt to take back a plane from a HIJACKER.
If a HIJACKER grabs a passenger and threatens to kill the passenger unless they are given control of the plane...Cockpit Control can never be given....
....Because that would violate the rule of NO HIJACKERS ALLOWED IN THE COCKPIT.
Perhaps along with the "Seat can be used as a Flotation Device" speech that is given at the beginning of every flight, Airline personnel need to include a short speech about the "sanctity of the cockpit".
I'm worried about a misguided traveler not understanding PASSENGER ETIQUETTE.
PASSENGER ETIQUETTE simply means as long as the HIJACKER has not taken control of the cockpit, the plane has a decent chance to land safely, and the passengers must remain calm and controlled.
I'm worried that during a future HIJACKING, a confused traveler could somehow try and create a disturbance to crash the plane as some kind of misguided heroic act.
If the certified pilot is still in control of the plane, a HIJACKING does not mean the passengers need to try and crash the plane on their own.
I think our government needs to review Airplane Policy concerning HIJACKING as it relates to the Passenger on National Television...and the sooner the better.
A message from the President of the United States about passenger conduct during a HIJACKING will give some power back to the American Citizens by DEFINING our role in the event of a HIJACKING.
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited September 22, 2001).]
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Just posting to this to bring it back to the top....any opinions out there? Helpful suggestions to add?
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Alex
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as a passenger of a (possible) hijacked plane, i would feel that my priority would be to sit in the back of the plane and wet my pants like everyone else.
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General Philosophy
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Ah, those flotation devices might come in handy afterall.
I guess it depends on which emotion wins out, fear or anger.
Fear, and the ensuing paralysis that comes from the events being too out of the norm to comprehend, so shock sets in.
Anger could have emerged if the passengers were given the truth of what was going to happen on the planes that crashed into the WTC.
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited September 24, 2001).]
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yeah, there is always some john wayne on board that thinks he is gonna stop something major.
too bad i'll still be in the corner...
this time passed out.
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General Philosophy
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I have an analogy for you...
Lets say you pick-up a hitchiker who happens to be going in the same direction as you.
You are on the freeway doing 60mph, and the hitchiker pull a knife on you and tells you to jump into the back seat.
You do as you are told.
The hitchhiker joins you in the backseat and just stares at you.
Your driverless car starts to drift out of it's lane and will inevitably crash into the center divider within 15-30 seconds, the freeway has other traffic behind you, including a schoolbus full of children.
Would you really pee your pants?
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Alex
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The President of the U.S. could heal a lot of Americans injured pride if he held a press conference with the head of the FAA about proper procedures to follow in the event an American Citizen is on board a plane when a HIJACKING occurs, this issue NEEDS TO ADDRESSED...the sooner the better.
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Alex
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ok ok...maybe i haven't painted a bright picture.
wht i mean to be saying is this:
i am the type of person that completely succumbs to her fear.
this means, when i get truly afraid, i freeze...entirely.
thats all there is to it.
if the fear lingers further than my initial frozen state, i would eventually blackout.
as for the schoolbus of children, there is nothing i can do.
people die everyday. should i be in such a situation, some may look at me getting into the backseat as a selfish maneuver--protecting my right to life. because i went for the back seat, i inevidently risked the lives of countless others.
those 'others' are meaningless. sorry, but they are.
they are happenstance--subject only to the present now. nothing more. it goes back to the arguments someone is currently giving on the GP...about cause and effect...remember? the argument of chance.
it would not be chance that those children where in that situation at that time. it would not be chance that i would be getting into the backseat...
all sorts of past evidence leads up to that particular moment.
*sigh*
i'm tired of arguing my point now. i gotta go home.
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General Philosophy
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There is nothing wrong with getting in the back seat, that is a normal initial reaction as you are complying with the "hitchhiker's initial demand".
But once the "hitchhiker" gets in the backseat....and no one is driving, the situation has a new dynamic.
You should try to regain the steering wheel.
Although going limp with fear may increase your chance of survival in the event of an automobile crash.
My point of this whole topic is to have EVERY American Citizen conditioned to believe that there can be no status quo ever again if the pilot is not in the cockpit.
Everyone on the plane should fight to put the captain back in the cockpit, rather than let an unknown commodity fly the plane.
Now we know this...before the tragedy, this was not a "mandated" viewpoint.
I appreciate your honesty.
Just consider not always pre-believing what you already know, it can limit you in the future.
It is very brave to admit you have fear, most people would believe they would act heroically, without ever really finding out for real.
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Alex
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Overheard TODAY on a radio station....
"The Airlines should make an announcement about Hijackers just the way they make an announcement about flotation devices"...
Apparently, a pilot made such an announcement last weekend...and the passengers cheered wildly upon his conclusion.
Too bad healing America on an individual level is not as important as healing America's Corporate Image....too bad indeed.
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Alex
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The latest is Pilots with Guns! Dead Bolts on The Cockpit!
How about this, a plane can't fly with less than 50 passengers, and passengers will not allow a hijacker into the cockpit.
Still waiting to hear how American Citizens can make a difference from the Highest Office.
Meanwhile, the President's wife is asking us to calm and reassure the kids....
While the government does nothing to ease the minds of the Airline Passengers by telling them they can make a difference.
American Passengers held hostage...while a few John Wayne's roam the aisle.
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Alex
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The next terrorist act won't involve hijacking. It will involve either something we do not now expect, or something we expect but cannot defend against.
Which is why we are going to war instead of going to court against the terrorists. It has to end here and now.
--jd
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and you think war wil stop that?
At best things won't change that much.
At worst terrorists will get many new applicants and will start to retaliate.
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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JimDenney:
The next terrorist act won't involve hijacking. It will involve either something we do not now expect, or something we expect but cannot defend against.
Which is why we are going to war instead of going to court against the terrorists. It has to end here and now.
--jd
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, we are doing more than just one thing. We are Freezing Assets, Assembling Troops, building an international coalition, but those issues are somewhat different than the one raised on this particular topic post.
Lets not ignore what our government can do to help American Citizens get some power back by addressing the role of the passenger in the event of a future HIJACKING.
If the resolve of all passengers had been unified that the Pilot cannot be removed from the cockpit for more than a short period of time....counterattacking 3 or 4 terrorists with knives would have been the order of the day.
And the passengers would have prevailed.
But the concept that "the PILOT STAYS in the COCKPIT, the HIJACKERS DO NOT", was never talked about to the American Public...ever.
Now is the time to help heal the wounds felt by all American Passengers at not knowing what there role could or should be in a future HIJACKING.
Otherwise, the next time some controversy happens on a plane, we'll either just shoot it out of the sky, or misreact.
Your specific points have a better fit on other topic posts found on this site, but thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 03, 2001).]
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zelazny in response to jd
and you think war will stop that?
At best things won't change that much.
At worst terrorists will get many new applicants and will start to retaliate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
zelazny:
The Bin Ladin has "something up his sleeve" topic post deals with your very point.
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Alex
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Sad to say. The latest news is bars on the doors leading to the cockpit.
Yet no words for the American Passenger from our own President.
In time, some idiot will hold a weapon to another passengers head, and everyone will overreact, and we just may shoot the plane out of the sky.
In our zeal to find discover the size and scope of the World Wide Terrorist Network, we have forsaken giving some power and dignity back to the American Citizen who flys.
What is their role in the event there are hostilities on a flight?
Surely an ounce of knowledge now can help prevent a really sad over reaction in the future.
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Alex
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one of the things i really despise--
going into my profile.
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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
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Who is going into your profile, and how does that relate to this topic?
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Alex
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Discuss This scenario.
The captain is given a slow working poison in his coffee.
Just before the poison will take effect, the Bin Ladin dipstick dummies create a silly diversion on the plane, the pilot locks himself inside the cockpit which will have now reinforced bars to ensure nobody can get in.
Meanwhile, the other pilot had to go to the bathroom.
So, One pilot in the cockpit, about to black out, who has just locked himself inside the cockpit because of a faux disruption in the economy class.
Sensing something is wrong, the passengers call on their cell phones...
A fighter pilot arrives on the scene, the pilot of the airplane has now passed out.
No response comes from the airplane as flight controllers try to communicate with the now passed out captain.
After several minutes of no one being able to communicate with the passed out airline pilot,
...the Fighter Pilot shoots the plane out of the sky to prevent a bigger mishap.
Hey, I guess it all works out!
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Alex
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works for me.
however, sure would have to be careful where you blow that plane up. i think it would take more than that. calculating the amount of time to last communique from the pilot, analyzing the poison (which may or may not have different effects on different people), assuming the second pilot never made it back, how fast the plane was plummeting, etc etc etc
blowing the plane out of the sky may not necessarily be the most logical thing to do. remember, you cannot blow the plane into dust, parts of the newly erraticated plane must fall...
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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHATOUSHKA:
works for me.
however, sure would have to be careful where you blow that plane up. i think it would take more than that. calculating the amount of time to last communique from the pilot, analyzing the poison (which may or may not have different effects on different people), assuming the second pilot never made it back, how fast the plane was plummeting, etc etc etc
blowing the plane out of the sky may not necessarily be the most logical thing to do. remember, you cannot blow the plane into dust, parts of the newly erraticated plane must fall...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really don't want to mastermind this....but if I can think of this, then you can guarantee terrorists have ALREADY thought of it.
A drug that reacts to adrenaline and induces unconciousness when adrenaline is present.
So, when one pilot has gone to the bathroom at the back of the plane, a pre-planned "situation" is created among a couple of the passengers.
The pilot locks himself/herself into the cockpit, the adrenaline rush they are experiencing reacts with the secret ingredient that has been put into the pilot's coffee.
As the "situation unfolds, and the one remaining pilot locks the cockpit and bolts the door, his adrenaline naturally kicks in, which will soon render him unconscious.
After the newly ordained position of marshall on board heroically disables the perpetrator of the faux "situation" that has been created at the back of the plane, the other pilot can no longer get into the cockpit because the other pilot is unconscious, and the door to cockpit is locked from the inside.
An unconscious pilot in the cockpit, alone, and the door leading to the cockpit SECURELY bolted so no one can gain access.....hmmmmmmm....
Hey, I'm just pointing out the pitfalls of an arrogant Government that places no value on educating it's own well educated passengers on what their role is in the event of a crisis situation on a plane, it's been almost a month now, and our role as a passenger has not been strengthened even one teeny tiny iota.
It seems to be all about what the government is going to do for us, without our assistance, and their going to spend a whole lot of our money to do it.
The arrogance is suffocating.
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Alex
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I'm curious about the proposed Safety Marshalls that will now be on board every flight.
What if they fall asleep?
Can't someone grab their gun before they can react because everyone is so packed together?
How do you wake a Marshall up without humiliating them and perhaps then they are pissed off at you for not knowing the difference between deep thought and deep sleep.
Now that the War is started, I guess we won't hear much about the passengers role in the event of a hostage situation while a plane is in flight.
Will an announcement at least be added by the stewards and stewardesses before flights leave regarding what passengers should do in the event of a "situation" during a flight?
I don't plan on traveling on a plane until I believe all the passengers think alike about what to do. Right now, I think there would be so many divergent views that would only lead to additioanal trouble and panic.
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Alex
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Today I heard on the radio that a mental patient rushed the cockpit in the middle of a flight and screamed for everybody "to stand up, we're all gonna die!"
Ten passengers helped subdue him.
Proves my point, ten angry passengers are BETTER than one holstered gun.
The plane was "escorted" by two fighter planes back to the airport.
Being "escorted" by fighter planes that have orders to shoot to destroy if the plane even veers a little bit off course, now that is scary!
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 09, 2001).]
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I just can't comprehend a flight marshal on board every flight.
What do they do, stare down all the passengers? Read? Look straight ahead and say nothing?
Are they allowed to watch the in-flight Movie?
Will it be okay to turn the lights off to watch the movie?
Can they peer onto your computer screen to see what you are writing?
Where does the flight Marshall sit on the plane, in the back so they can observe everyone, or in the front, with their back to everyone, but closer to the cockpit?
Just curious. I'm not against the idea of a flight Marshall, but, what if they do fall asleep?
And can an oxbnoxious kid kick them in the shin without getting the kid's parents arrested?
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Alex
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Does it really matter where they sit? If they are outnumbered will they be able to do more than the other passengers?
What about the security as well? The biggest problem with terrorists is that one cannot distinguish between a terrorist and a normal person. What if one of the marshals is a terrorist, who signs up to be a marshal, is GIVEN a weapon when they get on the plane, and then does whatever he/she wants? The same thing with pilots. How can someone distinguish a terrorist pilot?
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Can I have my bag of peanuts now?
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The fact of the matter is that with current security procedures, a would-be hijacker, or even many will not have access to a gun. In fact, they will only be able to sneak in a nail-file, or toe-nail clippers or at worst, some box cutters like used in these hijackings.
Under no circumstances should the pilot's door ever be opened. Under no circumstances should a would be hijacker have that door opened. Not even for a second. If it's open for even the shortest period, he is dead. That's a fact. If the door is ever opened, he is dead and everyone dies.
There must be resolve in the cockpit that no matter what the hijacker does in the back, his door never opens.
From the back of the aircraft, there is nothing that can be done to crash the plane. Someone mentioned opening the doors or something, fact of that matter is that airplane doors open IN, they might be able to be twisted after opening so that it will eventually open out, but at first it opens IN. An airplane is pressurized during flight, even at 5 psi, distributed over the huge area of the airplane door, there is no way a human can physically break the seal while the plane remains pressurized. So, short of using a gun or a bomb, there is no way to crash a plane from the back.
This leaves us with 5 men holding knives versus probably at least 30 innocent people who don't want to die. Even with machetes, if the passengers were determined (such as is the case when fearing for life) the hijackers don't stand a chance against the passengers if they get it in their head to rush.
All in all, the marshals are just a symbolic gesture, the tightened security is shutting the barn door after the horse has already escaped. The only real matter is that the DOOR MUST NEVER OPEN, even if lives in the back are at stake. If the hijackers are resolved enough to actually kill people, the passengers are going to kill them. This is what standard procedure should be, and i agree that there should be a method for distributing this information.
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Great to see Shatzy has gotten over her fear of peeing.
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Yes if my plane got Hijjacked I'd **** mysef stick my head between my legs and kiss my *** goodbye then CALL IN RAINBOW SIX!
