Enough of the fluff? OK, no fluff here.

Has anybody else had it up to their eyeballs?

Hell, I liked Dubya in a sorta "Everyman" kinda way, but he is just totally fucking up.

Patriot Act, 4th Amendment goodbye, feds can come into your house without a warrant and snoop on you, no need to inform either you or a judge, police-state discretion, no big whoop.

Right to a jury trial? Fuckit, who needs that, just classify you as a "Foreign combatant" and all the pesky due process nonsense goes out the window, held without trial, held without a lawyer, held indefinately, just held held held. No big whoop, it's a friggin war dammit! Just like that other war. Carry a little too much cash around, oh, OK, just let the po-lice confiscate it, since "normal people" don't carry cash, who gives a fuck whether the money is legit or not, let the state (who gets to keep the money) decide if you are worthy of keeping it or not. No big whoop, have a beer, go back to sleep, we are looking out for your best interests, relax.

And Goddamnit, it's time for a war! We need a big war, against a real "Evil Doer" like Saddam. Who gives a shit if the INS is incapable of protecting our borders. Who gives a shit if illegal stowaways like Malvo are actually released by the INS in direct violation of immigration law so that they can snipe away at innocent Americans. And if the story gets out about how they were released from custody just say "No comment" until the story dies. Nobody gives a shit, fuckit. Who cares if our borders are wide open, we can send lots of good American sons and daughters to die on foreign soil fighting a "war" over there, while millions of who knows what kind of idiots and malcontents and terrorist just walk from Tijuana to America with nukes strapped to their nutsacks.

Fuckit, nobody cares. Go back to sleep. Better yet, turn the channel to "Everybody Loves Raymond"....you'll feel better.

My country tis of thee, I'll miss you, RIP.

We tried to tell you.

Unkie dearest, I can see your conflict with exisitng laws not being enforced and you libertarian ideals of less government.

I myself am amazed daily at how fucked up the welfare laws are, having to deal with them on a day to day basis. They don't make any sense either, IMHO. I gotta wonder what some of those folks were smokin when they dreamed up some of this shit. What ever happened to our personal ethics having to be legislated anyways?

I don't understand any of it these days. Frankly, I think some of this legislation is just a reason to keep these folks in a job. What WERE they thinkin? As a fellow coworker used to tell me, "No brain, no pain". Little did I know at the time how many situations that could apply to!

No you all know, I'm no debate queen-far from it. But these days I'm thinking the libertarians have it right. Less laws, and back to the constitution and Bill of Rights-cut the goofy add-ons!

In these parts there are umpteem propositions on the ballot. Having been the victim of one two years ago, and currently paying the price for poorly thought out legislation, I have decided to vote NO on every single one of them (except Indian Gaming, cause Native Americans have been so screwed for sooo long), just because I have seen the difference in legislation and impletation. Two totally different things.

So I hear ya unkie.

Unk,

You must be reading my mind... What the HELL is little Georgie doing? Other than pissing off most of the Islamic world at US.

Government... Trust the government? Talk to the Indians...

Regarding "Sodamn Insane"... He is an idiot, however a very ingenious idiot. The plan they have for America is completely scary... give us enough to worry about at home and we will forget about Israel. So, what would keep us so busy as to do so... WMD's... on our soil... Frightening to say the least...

If it weren't for the fact that none of the countries in the Middle East get along with each other, there would have been WW III a long time ago. The simmer over there is turning into a slow boil. Expect more incidents like 9/11 and this sniper idiot in DC. I am willing to bet that there are ties to terrorists with these two DC characters.

At this point, if one of the terrorist types decides to set off a nuke here... make it DC...

Deedah, you struck a nerve...

Growlin' at the TV...

The Dog

Unk:

I think that JBT answered your question. Although there is something you might be amused by. When candidates debate around the state, it is only the Democrats and the Republicans. When they come here, which they do, everyone is invited. One of the local TV stations gives free time for all of the candidates to express their views.

The one that was amusing was the Libertarian candidate for Congress. Here is some of what he said:

I am for smaller government. The Federal Government has only two roles: These are national defense and prevention of fraud [he never explained what that meant]. Everything else should be left to local districts. There should be no social security benefits for the retired or benefits for the disabled or vets; local churches should serve those functions. Same with welfare. Drug programs should be funded by local churches. Roads; counties and cities should fund those, including the interstates. Private industry should make decisions on national trade and environmental law [guess he was thinking about Ken Lay, who is from the area and is now out of a job]. Churches should be responsible for morality in public life. He went on and on. The guy has now qualified as an official moron. Wonder why the libertarian party never wins? [img]smile.gif[/img] There is more; you should have heard what the candidates from the Green Party, the SLP and WLP had to say.

Best Wishes,,,,,,

Z

Feel better now?

Btw, after all the money I pay into social security, it better be there when I need it.

Immigration is the kernel. Once you lose control of that the constitution meant for citizens is lost in the swirl. Tough time to be a president but this one is whippin the wrong horse. But, then there's Gore. Shit.

JBT,

Mebbe I'm a slow learner, but it took me about the same amount of time for me to begin to get fed up with Clinton, a half term or so. I do try to give folks the benefit of doubt but enough is enough. I have stated my opposing views on many of these subjects before, I think I will go back to sleep now.

Abie,

I think the Libertarians have it mostly right. We need more local control of government affairs, and less federal nonsense. Sadly, it all goes back to what "the people" are willing to put up with, a lot....too much, methinks.

Dog,

Great minds and all that, eh?

Z,

After many frustrating years I have let my Libertarian Party membership lapse. They are still the party that I feel politically most connected to, but ya gotta win before ya can do a damned thing, and they would rather be pure than be in power. Plus their open border idea is just nuts in today's world. Tim Leary where are you, I need to tune in, turn on, and drop out in order to save my sanity.

Pen Name,

I feel a little better, thank you.

Morb,

Yeah, God save us, there's always Gore! (Shudder)

UnK, let me add some fluff to think about:

This relates a recent experience [15 min ago] to your relationship with the Libertarian Party. The ol'eyes got tired after 5 hr of graphics on the computer. Pup and I went for a walk. We heard the distant honking and then a herd of geese circled and landed on the pond. There were 10 geese and one female wood duck in the herd. She sticks with them even though she doesn't belong. Should make for interesting mating rituals next spring.

Gore [shudder]: Well I see it this way; we had a budget surplus, now we have a deficit forever; we have seen the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the upper class ever undertaken-ie the tax cut; we had full employment, but now the highest unemployment rate since that forged by our last Republican, trickle-down, theorist; we have the Patriot Act and the Bioterrorism Act of 2002 [you probably don't know about that one and its future impact]; we have indefinite internment of American citizens without right to charges, trial or representation; under the most recent regulation, we have the right to impound property based on an executive pronouncement [you probably haven't heard of that one either; part of my job to be up on these things]; we have terrorism and an approaching war; we have the mobilization of 1/4 million reserves coming up [you have heard about that one, I'm sure]; the other stuff I know about won't happen until after the election, so we will have to wait. I won't go on cause you know the rest.

Sure makes the Clinton years look bad. Lord knows how much worse it would be if we had elected Gore. [img]smile.gif[/img] Wait we did!

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

Delete: Dup

Z

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 01, 2002 04:39 PM: Message edited by: FrmlyZ ]</font>

Hi unk! [img]graemlins/kiss.gif[/img] I figure the libertarians have done so much infighting that they just can't get it together to get many of theirs elected. Freedom and all that.

Z -- "the Bioterrorism Act of 2002 [you probably don't know about that one and its future impact]"

Z, honey, sweetheart, could you expand on that? [img]graemlins/kiss.gif[/img]

Helen:

I would be happy to tell you more if I could. I am, mostly, amazed by the average poster's knowledge about legislation.

The assumption seems to be that the Congress passes a law and the President signs it; and that is that. Not so. We live in a technically complex society. What happens is the law contains broad outlines and directs members of the executive branch to develop details [the devil is in the details]. These details are published in the Federal Register for public comment [a requirement that can be ignored in the case of an national emergency or war]. I am on list-serves with a lot of agencies. When this stuff becomes publically available, I will be happy to share it with you and share my concerns on the effect it will have on future medical and agricultural developments.

Have fun.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by FrmlyZ:
Helen:

I would be happy to tell you more if I could. I am, mostly, amazed by the average poster's knowledge about legislation.

The assumption seems to be that the Congress passes a law and the President signs it; and that is that. Not so. We live in a technically complex society. What happens is the law contains broad outlines and directs members of the executive branch to develop details [the devil is in the details]. These details are published in the Federal Register for public comment [a requirement that can be ignored in the case of an national emergency or war]. I am on list-serves with a lot of agencies. When this stuff becomes publically available, I will be happy to share it with you and share my concerns on the effect it will have on future medical and agricultural developments. And to answer the question: will you be arrested for having a mule.

Have fun.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another Dupe:

My mule? My mule or my life? [img]eek.gif[/img]

Z,

I see a few of those things the same, however, (however always sounds kinder and gentler than but sounds, more agreeable) I see a few things differently.

I must have missed the largest transfer of wealth since the largest cuts for the rich have yet to take effect. And even when they do take effect I don't mind if a rich guy gets the same tax cut (percentage wise) as a regular Joe Six Pack like me. Rich folks don't deserve to be singled out for excessive taxation in my mind, I am not a class warrior. A guy makes ten billion bucks I guess he aught to be allowed to keep most of it.

And the unemployment rate is not a big jump from what Clinton had, unemployment rates under Reagan reached double digits, but then, he took over a whacked-out economy from Jimmy (shudder) Carter.

Bush Jr was handed an economy already headed south when he took office, plus a highly over-inflated stock market that had really nowhere else to go but down. Think back to Greenspan's warnings under Clinton.

In short, I suppose I tend to lay the blame where it deserves to go, and there's plenty for both sides of the aisle.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 01, 2002 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Uncle Deedah ]</font>

A lot of issues flying all at once now, and I am very concerned with all this crap in the Middle East. It seems to be outflowing to other areas (East Timor comes to mind) at a fairly rapid pace.

I read the latest National Geographic last night from cover to cover (my s-in-l has a sub.) and it discussed, at length, WMD. It is fair to say that the Russians DO NOT have control of their arsenal of weapons... From small arms to SS-24's, there seems to be items "missing". [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

And if Pakistan and India don't lob nukes at each other within 5 years or so, we should feel lucky.

Regarding this upcoming election, my vote is going to Asmodeus/Baalzebub... Why vote for the "lesser evil"?

Chewin' on the yellow magazine...

The Dog

So, you think we should be concerned about upsetting the Islamic world? Poor fools. The Islamic world has been upset since about 610AD. They have no desire to co-exist with anyone not of their beliefs. Get it? You should be less concerned about upsetting them and more concerned with how you/we are going to survive them. They don?t want your money or your sympathy. They want you to convert or die. Simple really.

While we are on the subject of survival, let?s talk WATER for a sec. The average human requires an intake of 2.5 litres per day. That?s 241 gallons per year and does not take into consideration cooking, bathing, car washing, lawn watering, crop growing, etc.

Folks that live in Southern California, Nevada, and Arizona are rapidly running out of water. Don?t suppose those 6 million plus ?undocumented immigrants? you have absorbed could have anything to do with that do you?

After all, they only need 1.5 BILLION GALLONS a year just to stay alive.

What the heck, it?s only water.

Nevada will require even more water when they pass that pot initiative, thousands of thirsty potheads and hundreds of thousands of thirsty plants growing on the back porch!

I frankly don't give a rat's ass if India and Pakistan nuke each other even further into the stone age, my concern is keeping the ragheads from bringing that shit over here. Bush needs to wise up about the border issue, get off his ass and do something about it. And if that asshole Tom Daschhole blocks the effort he should be labeled a "foriegn combatant" and thrown in the clink! May as well use that crappy loophole for something worthwhile.

Soc:

"So, you think we should be concerned about upsetting the Islamic world? Poor fools. The Islamic world has been upset since about 610AD. They have no desire to co-exist with anyone not of their beliefs."

I find this interesting, since I have never heard from anyone who personally knows all of the people in the Islamic world. Most of the folks I know follow some type of stereotype. Though you claim to know all of the people in the Islamic world, you must have missed the few hundred that I know personally. They wouldn't agree with you. Then I could forgive you for missing a few hundred when you have had to interview more than a billion. Quite a job. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

Unk--

Couldn't agree with you more about the immigration problem. One of the few pols that I know who is taking it seriously is Congressman Tom Tancredo--

http://www.house.gov/tancredo/Immigration/

But there is much resistance. The Republicans like the cheap labor provided by illegal immigrants; the Democrats see the them as a source of votes and the goo-goos think that America is morally required to help who ever comes a-knockin'.

I am not a nativist nor a xenophobe nor an isolationist but I DO think that there should be a time-out of 10-20 years on most legal immigration and a total prevention mode on illegal immigration. The time-out would enable us to peacefully absorb those immigrants that we already have.

The issue to me is American cultural integrity and citizen safety. The US is a sovereign nation. We have the right and responsibility to control our own borders and immigrant population. Immigration is a vital source of new ideas and energy. But it also be can deadly.

Yes, we are all products of immigration, even Native Americans. All immigrants came voluntarily except Africans although I doubt if many African-Americans would care to return to Africa, even if that were an option.

Emma Lazarus wrote a nice little poem but it is not a part of the US Constitution. We have no responsibility to accept all the world's huddled masses.

As a Libertarian, I'm sure you realize the irony that some Libertarians have, for years, advocated an "open borders" policy. The open-borders idea is typical of how, IMO, Libertarians are sometimes Utopian.

Very good, Lars! I agree a thousand percent.

Lars, I've had the pleasure of reading your common sense input on various issues for years now. You sir, are a voice of reason in a sea of babble. I would take more time with this post but I'm booked up this week, with interviewing the few hundred Islamics I missed last week.

Be well and continue to give us your wisdom.

I am humbled Peter. Thanks.

Non-fluff? Doan know about that, mostly I think we're dying.

Dying as a forum that is. Things are born, they live, and then they die. It has been my distinct pleasure and honor to have chewed the issues with you all, and also with those who have chosen to move on. I ain't goin anywhere, I need a place to post my occasional rants and foamy mouthed fits.

Plus, this personal shrine to myself needs the odd polishing and waxing now and then, eh Z?

Oh, to Lars,

Yeah, I agree. Tis but part of the reason I let my Lib Party membership expire. The other part is the stance that ALL drugs must be legalized. Hell guys, put your effort into Mary-Jane first, then, when the world doesn't come to an end you can worry about addressing the rest of the drug war insanity. Can't eat a whale all in one bite, ya gotta start by chewing off little chunks. They don't seem to get that, which leaves me wondering where to invest my political energies...

*big Di Squire sigh*

I second the legalization of pot. If the government were smart, they would legalize it, control it, and sell it. It would do wonders for coffers they complain about being low. Hell, make all revenue from the pot sales mandatorily input into social security...

Scratchin' an itch...

The Dog

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They don't seem to get that, which leaves me wondering where to invest my political energies...
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unk,

Invest your energies by running for office. Put your time where your mouth is. Make a difference, even if it is only as a county supervisor or whatever they have down in sunny Florida. Just a thought.

[img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

Unk:

"*big Di Squire sigh* " I know Diane and you are no Diane. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Got to go to Oregon. Understand it is very dry out there. Maybe I will be able to see Mt. Hood for a change.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

I am twice 'umbled, Soc. I am indeed a very 'umble (and smarmy) man.

What's happening to this forum---are we going non-fluffy?

Well hell..... lemme wade in here, been trying to get back and de-fluff meself.

I hate what the towel heads did to us with a passion but am more than incredulous at the toll it has taken on our civil liberties, like they weren't already being slowly deteriorated enough before hand. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm a Libertarian but our immigration policy has got to be tightened up or hell we might as well send party invitations to the al-keedas of the world and pass out molitov cocktails as reception gifts. Fuckem, if it isn't important enough to them to enter this country legally we really can't afford to have them here just to increase the sucking of the teat, there's enough of that right now.

Do not legalize reefer. First off, we do not need another taxable item and bearacracy (sp?) to regulate. Secondly, the common sense thing is just to let people grow their own. Simple.

This crap if you smoke pot your'e supporting terrorism is one of the biggest crocks of shit I've heard in a long time, gimme a break.

I said it the morning of 9-11 " Our way of life is altered forever" I'll stand by that remark, though I must admit that it has affected and permeated us in ways I never envisioned.

OK, it's not TEOTWAWKI but we have taken strides in the last year that might make any polly a doomer...and quick.

Now........what's the best way to grill Ostrich???

Capn--

Doesn't your third paragraph contradict your second? I don't like it either, but if our enemies use our open society to attack us then what choice is there but to make our society less open. Temporarily, I hope.

I like a biological metaphor. Society is alive, an organism. A living creatures are prewired to defend themselves against disease. The white cells zap the invader cells in order to protect the organism's cells. If the result of this defensive action is a fever and a nose full of snot, tough titty. It's necessary IMO.

Regarding pot--aren't there several states that have legalized pot referenda this year?

I dunno Lars...must one be at the expense of the other? Do we have to sacrifice our liberties for our percieved safety? There are two types of immigration, legal and illegal. I'm guessing here but I think that most legal immigrants have something to offer our society while illegal immigrants mostly take from our society. This is a huge generality but I can't help but think it true.

What the......???? Nice picture there 'capunfun', looks like the clay doll from hell. Speakin of the ganja, it appears the good folks in Nevada didn't think too much of their pot proposition yesterday. 3 ounces is about what it takes for the average Dade County voter to 'be one with the chad'.

And while we are on the subject of diminishing privacy, you can thank the liberals for that. Now that TPTB have captured the Kingdom of DC, just watch what happens in the next few months.

YEEEEHAAAAA!!!!

Well:

Quote: "Got to go to Oregon. Understand it is very dry out there. Maybe I will be able to see Mt. Hood for a change."

One small comment. I am going to rent myself out as the "rain bringer". Something that I seem to be able to do. [img]smile.gif[/img] Got a plane to find.

Best Wishes,,,,,,

Z

HUUUH?? What's this? A thread about POLITICS?! I thought Lars said we weren't allowed to discuss these things! Oh, I forgot, Unk runs this forum, not Lars.

Well, as I'm sure you are all aware, I haven't been posting for a while. I was over in Europe meeting with the biggest intellects of the World to make plans to solve all of the World's problems. Not all of them were as intelligent as me but at least they weren't liberals. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] We made some pretty good progress but I'm sorry I am not at liberty to discuss these things with the common people. You'll find out about it after it happens. [img]wink.gif[/img]


Now, getting back to politics... Unk, I think you have been reading too much liberal press. Bush is the best thing to ever happen to our country.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...1208442999.jpg


Just look at how well he responded to 911.
A wimpy ass liberal like Gore would have ran away and hid even if the people overwhelmingly demanded we get revenge on the Taliban. Don't get paranoid about the security stuff, if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about. Once we finish killing off all those camel jockeys in Iraq the World will be a much better place. Bush is a compassionate conservative compared to many others. I'm sure he will allow some of the towel heads to live as long as they are willing to make themselves useful and work for our oil companies. The rest of the lazy ones should be prepared to meet Allah, that's what they say the dream of anyway, so he will just help their dreams come true. Bush is going to prove to the World that Capitalism is the best system. Just watch, you'll see. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Post election day frustration 'eh Pugs?

Not to worry. There's always California.

((((limpylars)))). Good to see you too libby boy.

Intellectools? No such word at any of the universities where I attained my degrees. It's no wonder you fail to be a productive member of society, you're illiterate! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

And YOU are asking ME if I am some kind of weirdo? LOL, I guess if you need to label anyone who is not a limp-wristed liberal like you a "weirdo" then, have at it limpy! It says more about you than it does about me. Too bad for you the weirdos are in the majority and we're running the show. [img]wink.gif[/img]


Morbius,

You better wake up and smell the coffee my feeble-minded friend, the Republicans cleaned house in the elections and I couldn't be more pleased. Now we can finally get this country back into shape without putting up with all the liberal bullshit. California is where limpy libs like larsie boy belong and if they secede from the union it will be just fine with me.

((((puggles)))). Good to see you, dear boy.

Intellectoools? Are you some kind of weirdo?

Degrees? Yes, it's true, Plugsy has more than one degree. He has a BA from Yonkers Community College
in Internet Trolling and an MFA from The Hoboken Academy in Graffitti.

An all-around intellectool, our lad.