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...self defense...
While watching a movie the other evening, my roommate and I got into a discussion about killing in self defense. When asked what I would do if I were in a stituation where it was "kill or be killed," I responded that I wouldn't do the former... I.e., I would not kill in self defense, and if it came to that, I woulda allow myself to be killed...
Obviously, since this a hypothetical, I can't be certain of what I would do, especially since such a situation would involve great amounts of adrenalin... But I do hope that I wouldn't kill in ANY circumstances.
My question(s) for you: What does my disregard for the ol' survival instinct say about life? Is not doing everything in one's power to stay alive only a form of suicide? Does my un-willingness to fight for life de-value life?
Is this topic too serious? How many posts will it take before this topic digresses to a series of inside jokes? Will kilzok7 ever stop asking questions? (Damn, it's already begun...)
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i think that you are correct in saying that you can't be certain of what you would do. unless you are in the situation, you really do not know, and everyone that has been in the situation and died cannot tell us if they tried to fight back or not. i think that you (and everyone else) would fight back. if i could get away without killing, that is what i would do, but if it came down to me or them, i would do everything in my power to make sure it was them.
i think the only situation in which a person would just let themselves be killed is one in which there is no escape. such as a prisoner being led down the hall to the electric chair. they know that if they try to run away they will either be recaptured or shot as they run away, so the only thing they can do is try to be brave and die with dignity (if that is possible for anyone).
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--speaking of (soon to be) inside jokes--
kilzok says:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Obviously, since this a hypothetical, I can't be certain of what I would do, especially since such a situation would involve great amounts of adrenalin... But I do hope that I wouldn't kill in ANY circumstances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
kilz, you know as well as i that this statement is absurd. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif i'll gladly prove it.
1) you don't have to have great amounts of adrenaline in order to kill
2) you cannot help but kill in such circumatances as 'kill or be killed' because it is in your natural inherent ability to perform the former.
i mean...god help the day a virus enters...
oooops! did i do that?
or were you suggesting a 'higher' form of justifying this senario--such as morality and/or personal value?
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General Philosophy
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ok....lets just rest in knowing that you meant the latter question.
you say:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My question(s) for you: What does my disregard for the ol' survival instinct say about life? Is not doing everything in one's power to stay alive only a form of suicide? Does my un-willingness to fight for life de-value life?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the three questions you are asking are strange to me.
in the first question, one ( I ) am lead to assume that your value on life is quite high. but then in the next question you insinuate a suggestion in contradiction but saying that such high value of life is (basically) pathetic and should be seen as suicide--or, the readiness to admit defeat. finally by your third question you have returned to the original question (or value thereof) by suggesting that your unwillingness to defend your own life MUST, in a sense, devalue life in general--which concludes that by admitting your short-comings in NOT defending yourself, you hold a higher esteem on life of another.
this is curious.
may i ask if you are wanting confirmation of what is the higher value of the (two) situations? or...
are you wanting me/us to defend whichever of the two you choose?
i suppose what i really want to know is--
upon which do you stand firmly?
this may help me (us?) decypher what you mean. (at very least, it will help me http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif )
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General Philosophy
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oh...and kilz...
never stop questioning.
(hurray!!!! you submitted yet another topic!! and its a mighty fine one at that!!)
i am so proud of you. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
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General Philosophy
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What I was trying to do with this topic is explore the issue...
Here is my position: My life is of no more value than anyone else's... Therefore, in a "kill or be killed" situation, it doesn't matter what happens in the grand scheme of things- the world will keep spinning whether I die or not. So I wouldn't go to any extreme lengths to save myself. (Yes, killing is an extreme length.)
The questions were meant to open a discussion on the topic from any direction you'd like to come...
OK, the suicide thing: In a "kill or be killed" situation, choosing to be killed is basically akin to admitting defeat. Is this equivalent to suicide, considering that there is another way out?
As to the other questions... I'm just asking for opinions since I feel conflicted. I do put a great value on life; however, I don't think death would be all that bad either.
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Hmmm... You know, my thinking on the whole resisting the basic instinct to survive thing...
There are many people who have been saved from suicide by outside intervention. People who were determined to end their lives. People who just see no point whatsoever in going on.
And after being "rescued" some of these people have admitted to a sudden feeling of "what the fuck!" followed by an intense will to live and to do whatever it takes to do so, regardless.
Now, the circumstances are different, but the point that I'm making is that if someone goes into a lifethreatening situation fully intending to end that life, and STILL wants to live... then the instinct to live is stronger than any moral objections that the upper brain can come up with.
In other words... you may INTEND to lay down your life in order to not kill someone else... but the lizard brain down deep inside of you may not let you do that.
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Give me an edit button, and I'll moderate the WORLD!!!
The Neil & Neal Show
That's our eris! Shy, reserved, prone to pounding helpless arachnids... ~ 5Cats
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kilz--let me ask you this:
if someone were to put you in a coffin and lock the top, would you try to get out...or jsut shrug it off and say...better now than ever?
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General Philosophy
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eris- You're probably right. That "fight or flight" instinct would kick in, and if the flight option were nonexistant, I'm sure I'd get my ass kicked...
Shat- That's a different situation all together. Of course I'd try to get out- I'm all for flight. It's just the fight part that I'm not so sure about, and it would be kinda hard to fight my captors from inside a coffin...
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whaddya mean its not the same thing???
if a big, fat guy says,
'hey, punk, i'm gonna put you in this coffin here and seal the lid so that you can never get out of it and die a slow, suffocating death...'
whats the difference in some person attempting to kill you???
i mean, the coffin story pretains because in some case, he'd have to let you know that you were about to get jacked...in which case, you'd have to decide whether to kill or be killed...
maybe i'm just a freakin idiot.
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General Philosophy
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Oh, ok... I thought I was in the coffin already in your hypothetical...
Ideally, my answer wouldn't change. I'd try to escape before and after being put in the coffin...
Actually, I imagine I'd be less likely to kill in that situation, since the threat of death is not immediate- he's not taking aim with a gun or coming at me with a knife- he's coming at me with a six foot long box.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Not a six foot long box!!!
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So if perhaps I were to come at you with a loaded gun, and were to say "now your going to die..." and you were in the corner of an alley, with no where to run, and let's say you yourself also have a loaded gun in your pocket. You wouldn't pull the gun and shoot me? You think that you would be able to let yourself get shot? Is this what your saying?
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Why are they trying to kill you? If it's for a lame ass reason then yes, your life is worth more than theirs in the opinion of many. I've got to go now but I'll be back later, interesting topic.
Quickly though, yes: It is suicide.
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hey, killa--glad to see you here. i am very interested in your thoughts. you have shown that you have some worth thinking of. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
can't wait to see what you have to say on this.
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General Philosophy
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It doesn't matter why someone is trying to kill me- murder is murder and death is death regardless of the reason...
Hannibal- Letting myself be shot would either be the easiest or most difficult thing in the world to do; I'm not sure. Would I be able to just let go?... I s'pose we'd never know unless the situation arose...
I think the thing that lies at the heart of this issue for me is the judgement call I'd be making if I did kill in self defense. I'd be saying by my actions that my life is worth more than that of the person who was trying to kill me. But is one life worth more than another? Who can really make that judgement?
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this is just a question for anyone and everyone to answer in their own opinions. perhaps this would help me understand what everyone is meaning in their answers.
question:
what difference does ANY (human) life make?
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*note--
and just as a reminder, people, just because someone argues one thing, does not mean they believe that one thing.
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General Philosophy
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FUN TOPIC... my initial thought is:
Every single life acts & therefore reacts & therefore affects other lives. How that affect is understood & transferred throughout society can be astronomical. Even the most insignificant of lives affect other people in some way shape or form which can lead to changes in thought patterns, changes in morality, changes in fashion etc, etc. We all in some way contribute to our society (even our global society) as we currently know it. Weather we agree or disagree with our society - buy into or refute our society - we all contribute.
Yes?????? I'm very interested in everyone else's opinion.
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I would like to agree, that lives are significant, but at the same point insignificant. I would like to agree with DA in the statement that we have profound impacts upon those around us and that it in turn affects others, etc... However I will argue that in a whole sense, I suppose that very few lives are significant, if any. Based upon my simple thinking which comes from the whole "what are we to the universe" kind of thought. We live, we die, we are but one planet in a vast and infinite *an assumption* universe. If I die today, I have left no mark on anything outside of this planet, therefore my signifigance is then depleted to nothing when looking at that aspect.
But I suppose if you base it on earth as the whole, and our lives peice of it, then to a degree we each are significant. However small it may be.
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Sure, we're all important to ourselves and some other people, perhaps even to our entire society.
So? All of human existence- you, me, society- is nothing. And I happen to think that is a beautiful thing.
It's kinda like Zela's signature...
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just for those who don't like to scroll back
(proud of signature)
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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.
