to an unknown god

I see that you are very philosophical in every way. As I browse your hostboard I notice your conversations and comments about god. What you discuss in without adequate knowledge I want to proclaim to you...if you will indulge me a few moments of your time.

'The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

`For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.'

Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill.

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.'

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As I browse your hostboard I notice your conversations and comments about god. What you discuss in without adequate knowledge I want to proclaim to you
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

may i ask where you found these facts?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.'
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
considering where i _think_ you get these ideas from, how can you speak for a god? of which you previously said that we do not understand him?

aaaaaand, (sorry, i can't help this) what would you say if some other religious book like say the quoran would have a totally different view on this?
(what i'm asking here is, why do you think your particular source should be the right one)

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

Eh hem, I know the aspect of religion EXTREMELY well thank you. I went to a private catholic school k-8 and had religion class EVERY day. If anyone is unknowledgable in the subject, I suggest you exclude me. I am shocked that you would make such a broad statement to begin with.
Not a very wise idea to openly state something like that about people you have no idea of. Sounds to me like your "assuming" we all have no knowledge of religion. I'm not the only person on this board who went to a catholic school, i know that for a fact. But if you want to continue and insult my inteligence on the area of religion, I then challenge you to a duel.
I mean, I have listened long and hard about why God does exhist and why I should believe, and I still have ample reasons why he could not exhist, questions as to why we should believe etc. So you tell me which side you'd like me to take, and I'd gladly debate http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif

However as to this particular post..
if god created all this, who created god?
and if they created god, who created them? etc... answer that if you can http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif

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As miserable as life may be I hold it pretty precious...

If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no light. If I lose paper and ink, I wil write in blood on forgotten walls. I will write always, I will capture nights all over the world and bring them to you.

[This message has been edited by Hannibal (edited October 12, 2001).]

I agree with you Hannibal - assumptions are not a great way to introduce oneself to a board. I find that most people who indulge in philosophical thought have a good background in religious thought as well. I am not sure I would use my K-8 experience to prove that I have knowledge about religion, but your response to this new poster is a valid one.

I too did the K-8 Catholic School thing. Though I must say, I learned so much more in my Catholic University 4 years later. The K-8 experience taught me the "this is what we beleive". The University experience taught me "this is why we believe".

I suppose that is your point regarding your ability to argue either side of the situation - I can as well. On one side, the belief - on the other side, the fact. What I find most interesting is that I think that somewhere inbetween these two sides there can be a happy medium. Of course, this is my personal belief and I am not assuming anyone else has the same.

Maybe that's the great thing about religion - if it works for you and causes no harm to self and others - more power to you!! AND... what a topic to debate - one that many avoid for the obvious reason that often times it is deeplly emotionally charged.

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[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited October 13, 2001).]

ack.. still no reply by the original poster.. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/frown.gif
too bad, this could have been fun debate http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/frown.gif

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

maturios doesn't check on his posts as quickly as some would like. this is his affair. but i am almost certain that he will return. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

to me, religion and god are two separate things. one can easily understand religion, yet for god, it is not so simple.
another good definition would be 'god'.
in my dictionary, the entry 'god' is followed by:
(scratching all pronunciation and symbols--whats the point?)
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> 1. the supreme reality; the Being (yes it was capitalized) worshipped as the creator and ruler of the universe
<LI> 2. a being or object to have supernatural attributes and powers and to require worship
<LI> 3. a person or thing of supreme value[/list]

now, lets venture to the word 'supreme':
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> 1. highest in rank or authority
<LI> 2. highest in degree or quality
<LI> 3. ultimate, superlative, surpassing, peerless, incomparable[/list]

in posting the passages from my dictionary, i have already come across contradictions (in the definitions), but nevermind that now.
also refrain from posting your version of the definitions because mine came from a dictionary and surely--all dictionaries must be the same--otherwise, how would we have any sense on a definition of a word???? ( http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif )

i ask you personally, can nothing fit this definition of god? have you no god?


someone give me reprieve.




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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy

cool

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Lambrini girls just wanna have fucks... and cheese ('cos kids'll do owt for Dairylea and that)
Cheese Addicts Anonymous

Greetings friends and apologies for the delayed response. I have not been hiding or avoiding the forum...just taking care of other matters. Thank you for the interest. I hoped to generate some good conversation.

Let's try to stay on point: I pointed us to an unknown God for conversation and consideration.

I find that many intelligent and considerate people either reject God or they prefer a generic "god" without clear boundaries or laws.

In my original post I generalized that some forum participants converse about god(s) without adequate knowledge. That means some talk about what they do not know, they confidently make assertions about someone they do not understand. Many prefer a god made in their own image, but the true and living God who created humanity made us in his image.

My goal is to encourage others to explore a specific person, a God that can be known, who is infinite and personal. The God who is there and is not silent.

I believe everyone has an innate knowledge of God (including you forum posters who might deny it!) http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif . The problem is that we do not like God so we marginalize that knowledge, devise other forms of religion or non-religion to suit our preferences, or simply turn to other created things. Still a few embrace God by faith.

Now before you make any final decisions about who God is, I challenge you to look again (or for the first time). You will see that God has revealed himself to us in at least four ways...



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i am not interested in 'who' god is per se, moreso, 'what' god is.
i do not find arrogance in determining that any 'god' would (have to) be personified.
to me, that is an awful thing to do.
instead, i would (dare) dream that any 'god' would be so much more than mere human imagination.
*sigh*
aye!

perhaps even on the atomic level.

but you know, your guess is as good as mine.
here's for throwing wishes into the wind. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif

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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>. The problem is that we do not like God so we marginalize that knowledge, devise other forms of religion or non-religion to suit our preferences, or simply turn to other created things. Still a few embrace God by faith.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do think that perhaps you should try not making it so black and white, your forgetting grey. There are people who do LIKE god, unlike how you say everyone dislikes him, thus making your statement completely invalid.
About the idea of God, it is personal, therefore, you are unable to tell one person something, or not tell them something or somehow, or someway, or why they do what they do when it comes to god, like you have done.
But back to your statement, I think to make your statement a bit more valid, you should take into consideration the many more options than you have listed there, and not generalize people into such a small black and white category.
This in itself show's your theories would perhaps need a little polishing.
You talk about the image of God, but, does Gods image really matter? We believe in a god, lest we try to do as he would have us do, and serve for Him. That in itself is enough. He is our Father so to speak and like all faded memories of our biological fathers as children, sometimes we tend to fill in the blank spots with our own ideas. Thus his image doesn't matter, so it is okay for a person to have their own image of a God.
I just completely disagree with what you say on the standpoint that, at least people are aware of the fact that there is religion, and they choose their own ideas in which to form, grow, and believe this. There's more there, but at the current moment I'm having a little troubling voicing all I'd like to say about this. So I shall leave it as is, and wait for your feedback.


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As miserable as life may be I hold it pretty precious...

If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no light. If I lose paper and ink, I wil write in blood on forgotten walls. I will write always, I will capture nights all over the world and bring them to you.

Some are concerned with what god is, rather than who god is. Others are concerned about their personalized deities. And as I stated previously many simply do not like god.

Hannibal contends that many people do like god. But my point is that many people do not like the God revealed in the sacred writings contained in the Bible. The God who is personal and infinite. Rather they prefer to create their own gods.

Creating gods is not a novel exercise of human imagination or intelligence. Humankind has been creating its own gods from early history til now. We call this idolatry. Ultimately idolatry is not the worship of a thing, an icon or other images; it is the worship of human intelligence.

Creating gods in the image of self is the enterprise of a person adrift in the universe. We consider it an exchange, trading of truth for a lie, trading the Creator for created things. As human beings we know innately that God exists and we are not gods. The problem is that we do not like the God who is there so we imagine our own gods to suit our tastes and preferences. Such gods are no gods at all.

You may declare that god is impersonal like a particle of energy or relative to self but such a god is lifeless, a dead idol, a figment of human imagination.

Again the true and living God has revealed himself to us in at least four ways...Want to see how?
intuitivel



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maturios--

i am interested in hearing about 'these 4 ways'.
please, post.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy

Shatoushka--Thanks for the interest. Whether you agree or not I want you to know I appreciate your willingness to at least hear me out on this matter. I appreciate your kind and generous spirit.

I have asserted that God reveals himself to humanity in at least four ways. The Light of God's revelation grows in intensity as we move from first to fourth. It gets brighter and clearer.

1. The Light of Creation: God reveals himself to us through the creation. God's invisible qualities such as his eternal power and divine nature may be known by humanity because God made it plain to us. We can understood who God is from what he has made. The visible creation is a pathway to the invisible Creator.

2. The Light of Conscience: God reveals himself to humanity through an innate moral law we call conscience--sometimes it accuses us, sometimes it defends us. Like a moral compass it tells where we are going whether good or bad.

3. The Light of Canon Scripture: God reveals himself to humanity through the canon of Scripture. The sacred writings enable us to know and understand the truth about God. They set boundaries and make us concious of sin.

4. The Light of Christ Jesus: God reveals himself to humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. He makes known the grace and truth of God. God presented Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins to show his justice and mercy.

Can anyone guess what we (myself included!)have done with the Light of God's self-revelation? The answer to that is our fundamental problem.

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hey, maturios--
you know you can post here just like anyone else.
now, i have some things i would like to say about your '4 ways'...however, due to the fact that i am fully aware of they type of argument i would be getting myself into, i shall refrain from that.
so, instead, i am gonna say--briefly--what i think. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif

1) the light of creation:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> i have brought this subject up over on the religion category. in the forum 'the truth according to everyone' (great forum, btw). i have posted a new topic concerning creationism vs. evolution. i have yet to post my feelings on the subject, but the posts that are currently 'evolving' (hahahah) are quite interesting. maturious, i think you have been there before, but for everyone else here, i encourage you to go and check it out. be sure to iron your straight-jackets before entering. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif[/list]
2) the light of consciousness:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>first of all, this 'way' is similar to may concept of things...though 'god' is not necessarily 'God'. ahem.
<LI>i am no sure i agree with an innate moral law (especially through consciousness)...somehow, it casts a shadow over eternal judgment. (this is just my opinion)[/list]

the final two i choose not to refer to. maybe i will if time gives me the strength to...but again, i am relying on my good (conscious) judgment to prevent me from doing so.



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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy

2)
well, as far as morals go, they change per society and are (in my eyes) not a fixed structure but a series of rules that evolved in that society instead of being based on 'divine' rules. (even though many claim to be)

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

Shatoushka-sometimes you make me smile.

Just one smallish thing...I referred to the light of conscience, not conciousness. No doubt we are each concious (mentally alert) but conscience refers to moral awareness.

Peace. Now, according to the christian world-picture, our fundamental problem as human beings is that we have exchanged, traded, bartered away the light God has given us for darkness.
* Creation points us to the Creator but we exchanged his truth, glory and wisdom for junk. We devote ourselves to created things of all shapes and sizes.
* Conscience points us toward the right and good, but we have seared our consciences so we will not feel guilty about wrong things we do. We silence the inner voice so we can do whatever we want, when we want. We prefer radical autonomy and moral relativism to God's light.
* Canon Scripture reveals the will of God clearly but the boundaries that liberate are perceived as binding so we cast off the yoke in favor of human wisdom and experience. Are we wiser and stronger than our Creator?
* Christ Jesus reveals the way, the truth and the life to us in the graphic imagery of a life well-lived. Yet many reject the love of God displayed in him.

Unashamedly, I pray and hope that all would become christians. At least give Jesus a fair shake, an honest investigation, some undivided attention. What do you have to lose?

As a kid in Texas we used to say to friends "I double-dawg dare y'all to" do whatever. In this case I double-dawg dare you to spend some quiet moments reading and considering the sermon on the mount.
_______________
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.

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too late :P
i was an xtian as kid and reverted to non-theism when i grew up so i'm afraid that that argument isn't really usefull towards me :P
On the other hand, i could say the opposite, have you ever tried atheism? http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

i have not always been a christian. i came to be a christian honestly, not by birth nor a parents decision. i know what the other side is like: dark, empty and futile...and it sucks.

three questions
1. what kind of christian were you?

2. why did you 'revert back' to non-theism?

3. have you personally explored the life and teachings of Jesus?


by the way, it's only too late when you're dead. you could change at any moment prior to death. after death comes judgment.


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zelazny:
2)
well, as far as morals go, they change per society and are (in my eyes) not a fixed structure but a series of rules that evolved in that society instead of being based on 'divine' rules. (even though many claim to be)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree with you. Religion, the teachings of religion, religious texts - are all man made. This statement is not a knock against religion - religion obviously serves a purpose within society, within the family, within each individual who chooses to believe or not to believe. My point here is simply to agree with Zelazny - man made structures, religious or otherwise are continually in flux and at the continuous mercy of all that is human in nature.


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ok. i am going to attempt to tie this all together...at least in one aspect.

maturious (i'm gonna pick on you a bit http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif)raises the questions:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1. what kind of christian were you?

2. why did you 'revert back' to non-theism?

3. have you personally explored the life and teachings of Jesus?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i find this level of questioning very interesting. and i will answer these questions based on my own life, mmmmmkay? http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif

questions one and two can be lumped together as follows:

why kind of chrisitan was i? the type i was raised to be.
its a simple answer but honest as well. you see, if you were born into a chrisitan home that emphasised the religious rite, then you had no choice to 'discover' god on your own. you were thrust into the situation and threatened if you disaprooved. threatened with HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!
i do not find this to be a very moral situation. in fact, i find it to be more of a social perdicament...but enough about me.
this goes right into question two--
why did you revert back to non-theism?
well, its not exactly like reverting back, moreso of claiming what was your to begin with--a blank slate.
shoving onions down my throat as a child did not make me appreciate them all the while. and i only ate them because of fear of the parental units. i despised the fact that i was threatened to eat something that i could simply survive without.
(here, like with religion, i see it being pushed more because of authority-greed rather than good old-fashioned 'its good for you')
when i got old enough, i no longer had to eat onions because i HAD A CHOICE NOT TO. its wierd...you reach a certain age and suddenly you can choose to omit the onions from your burgers. *shrugs*
later, i just so happened to discover onions again for the very first time.
they were sauteed and deeeeeeeeelicious.
from that point on, i loved onions, but only if they were sauteed. i have a choice AND a preference. (main point!)
so its not exactly like you (if given you were born into religion as i was) have that right...you know, that right of free will they always talk about.
as a child, that free will remained to be seen.

question three bothers me. it seems like a trap question. if i claim to have 'personally explored the life and teachings of jesus' and found them to be ridiculous, i will be called a liar.
if i claim to have 'personally explored the life and teachings of jesus' and found them to be pertinent, i should have to prove it.
(c'mon, you know this is true http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif)

first of all, no one can explore the life and teachings of jesus because no one knows the real life and teachings of jesus. jesus, himself, never wrote it down.
i do not wish to go into this roundabout. we all know where this is leading.

basically, i am tired of interpretation. i am tired of being fronted by the 'commissioned'.

jim jones personally explored the life and teachings of jesus, and look what happened to him!



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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

i have more to add but i am pressed for time. i shall return later to finish the latter part of your post, maturious. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

Pleeeeeeeeeeeease tell me this thread isn't closed!!!!

marturios: In referance to the four points you made some time ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
1. The Light of Creation: God reveals himself to us through the creation. God's invisible qualities such as his eternal power and divine nature may be known by humanity because God made it plain to us. We can understood who God is from what he has made. The visible creation is a pathway to the invisible Creator.

2. The Light of Conscience: God reveals himself to humanity through an innate moral law we call conscience--sometimes it accuses us, sometimes it defends us. Like a moral compass it tells where we are going whether good or bad.

3. The Light of Canon Scripture: God reveals himself to humanity through the canon of Scripture. The sacred writings enable us to know and understand the truth about God. They set boundaries and make us concious of sin.

4. The Light of Christ Jesus: God reveals himself to humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. He makes known the grace and truth of God. God presented Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins to show his justice and mercy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. The visable creation theory has one flaw in it... the wonderful artist forgets to leave his signature. Before you misunderstand me, I mean that no where in the wind, the Grand Canyon, or Mars is there a huge "Made by Jevhova" sign. So many religions concerning with so many differant dieties have atributed these creations to their belief of God. How do you know you're correct? It could very well be that the Ancient greeks were right ans Zues created this all. Why would so many religions spring up if there was concret evidance that YOU, specifically, were right?

2. Ok then, how do you explain why differant people have differant morals? The bible clearly teachs Homosexuality to be a abomination, yet my Conscience tells me this is not true. The bible teachs woman should not be teachers of man, because woman was first decived and became a sinner... yet my Conscience tells me this isn't right either. A woman can be as good a teacher as a man. My Conscience tells me that woman should be equal to man, the bible dictates a man should have dominance over his wife. If my Conscience disaagrees with the bible... and my Conscience comes from God... then is the Bible wrong?

3. SO too, does the Karan. And many other Holy Books. The Bible itself wasn't even accepted by the church until 360 years after the death of Jesus Christ. Also, if the bible is unfalable, why are there contradictory teachings? If Moses wrote the first five books, why is he depicting his own death? If he didn't write them, who did, and how do we know they speak for God? Why do the three Gospels record differing versions of Jesus, including differing statments on what his last words were? If God doesn't condone sin, why does the bible record him ordering Genocide? How come so many people have used the bible for thier own purposes, if the true message is so clear?

4. If I got onto this debate, it would probibly eat up all the disk space Hoastboard has. I'll let you have that point. Unless you press... then I'm bringing the Dala Lamma into it! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif

Ok, those who sat through this deserve a little treat. Since I think Shat was the only one who made it to the end... *L*

Every time I look at you I don't understand
Why you let the things you did get so out of hand
You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned
Oh, why'd you choose such a backwards time and such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached the whole nation
Isreal in 4 B.C. had no mass comunication

Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong now
Don't you get me wrong

I only wanna know
I only wanna know now
I only wanna know
I only wanna know

Jesus Christ, Juses Christ
Who are you, what have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ, Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?

Tell me what you think about your friends at the top
Now who'd you say besides yourself's the pick of the crop?
Buddah, was he where it's at, is he where you are?
Could Mohammad move a mountain or was that just PR?
Did you mean to die like that, was that a mistake or
Did you kow your messages would be a record breaker?

I think you know how the rest goes. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif




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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV

you have all ben kind enough to respond and i am grateful. i appreciate your willingness to answr the questions i posed but find it peculiar that many want to avoid the jesus question. i think it is simply a matter of personal convenience. you have the right but i believe the consequences are grave.

besides that i think you can now see why i began the thread the way i did. (see the first couple of posts in case you forgot.) i contend that many people simply do not like God, especially as he is revealed in Jesus Christ, so they either reject any notion of god or they create their own god(s).

The verdict: Light has come into the world, but humanity loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light.

it is my hope and prayer that you will change your minds about these matters. Until then i hold you in my prayers.

love your neighbor as yourself and love one another.

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here, here, folks!!!! let the man speak!!!!
maturios--you are always welcome to post WHATEVER you want. i am sure i do not need to email you explaining the type of board you are on. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
we are all here to discuss...ok, perhaps that is more of debate...but what can ya do?

*i would like to pause at this time for thanking tin heart for adding not only that song to this thread...but also to my mind for the rest of the day!!!!* http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


i do have a very simple (and perhaps very difficult) question for anyone, including you maturios, to answer:

why would a people (a very sadistic people) find pleasure in killing their god?
i am explicitly referring to the crucifixion. do you think that the ancients would crucify or kill zeus???? they would laugh at such a notion.
besides, i am going to go further in this...so please read on.
there is more honor in an atheist soldier jumping on a grenade and saving two of his buddies in veitnam than a pansy christ killing himself FOR ALL THE WORLD!!!!!
think about it. the atheist had no guarantee fo resurrection. not only that, he sacrificed EVERYTHING in comparison.
i have no problem with reading or listening to 'the words of jesus'.
what i have a problem with is the obvious SICKENING of a human race that finds a deep pleasure in worshipping an ace in the hole.

i hate to get like this!!!! i hate it!!!!
but unless you can look into WHAT YOUR ARE TELLING YOURSELF TO BELIEVE IN...and truly come up with some honest answers...i don't wanna hear it.

don't give me some crap about the soldier getting eternal reward...screw that. he was an atheist.
freakin jesus KNEW he was going to die. today, anyone else would be heckled for being a suicidal person...and even that, they would burn for all time for such a decision!!!!! wtf?????
do not give me the cop out that jesus was god and blah blah blah...and therefore the loophole is created. that is just as much BS.
answer my two questions!!!!! anyone!!!!!!

why do we find it necessary to have our GOD! come down here and parade around and kill himself just to rise again???????
would jesus have burned in hell for all eternity just to prevent us from going??????
NO!!!!
we already knew COUNTLESS times that we have a choice. we can choose to do god's word or not. we had this miracle that miracle etc etc etc...and then what??????
we get to see a pansy god send his son to die...BUT HE DIDN"T TRULY DIE!!!!!! no, he rose again!!!!!

screw that.
i am finished.

*tin heart--i suppose you now see that this is not how i respond typically on TATE*

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

Hmmm... I am confused. I can't figure out the two questions, only one, I think. And for this one question - I have more questions.

Question One: Why would a people murder their god?

To prove he was god? Humans are known to be quite distrustful - especially when the "faith" that they grew up knowing was not the "faith" Jesus asked them to believe. He was offering something new and they may have simply been testing it. If that is true, is this test a sin?

Did they really know if he was god or not?
-OR (to say it another way)-
I am not sure if this next question will make complete sense in the way that I want it to... but...
Which came first, the story of Jesus or Jesus himself?

Is Question 2: Why would god feel obliged to in essence commit suicide?

I think I am confusing myself as I move along here. I have not yet developed my exact point but thought I would try and flush out some more ideas through these questions. More later... when my brain decides to start working again. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
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[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited October 23, 2001).]

I need to post two responses.

The first deals with the accusation that Jesus was a pansy.

Shatoushka: I am not shocked by your characterizations of Jesus as a pansy. Others have criticized Jesus without
cause. It seems to me that you are blinded by your prejudice against Jesus and dishonest about who he was. Surely you could find some admirable virtue in Jesus. It is childish to resort to name-calling. Emotions often get in the way of real dialogue. Breathe deeply...count to ten or something. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif

Consider: When we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man (though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die). But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were sinners Christ died for us.

Jesus was not a suicidal pansy maniac. The fact that he laid down his life on behalf of others shows courage, love and virtue. There is no greater love than laying down your life on behalf a brother or friend. Except when one lays down his life for an enemy. Jesus laid down his life for friends and
enemies because he loved them. I doubt the same could be said of anyone on this hostboard, myself included. Truly Jesus was crucified in weakness but he was raised in power. Jesus' actions were heroic not suicidal.

The least we should do is represent Jesus accurately, but that means dealing with someone who expects you to be more than your are, better than you are, even different. I apply this to myself as well.

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you are right, maturios, i behaved quite irrationally. for this, i apologize to you personally.

for the rest of you...more to come. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif



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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

My second response pertains to the issue of people killing their god. Like or not it was a sick case of mistaken identity. We must see this from two vantage points: human and divine.

Human Point of View
First, in their political and nationalistic zeal the Religious Establishment was preparing for a militant messiah. Jesus did not meet their expectations so they (with the help of the Roman authorities) had him executed.

Furthermore, Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh. The Religious Establishment considered his claims blasphemous so they executed him according to their understanding of Mosaic law.

Divine Point of View
We have not even taken into account the set purpose and foreknowledge of God. That is more than most of you want to consider at this point.

None of the rulers of the age understood Jesus. If they had they would not have crucified him.

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supposing a new 'jesus' came today. could he expect the same treatment?

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The verdict: Light has come into the world, but humanity loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what you mean with light and darkness, they're probably quite simple and well-defined (ooh, i dare you to define them http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) ideas but i doubt many people see things exactly like you do.
i doubt that the person who steals from another does so because he 'hates' to be light (if it means what i think it is= good) but because he wants that money.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you know what the truth is? maybe there is another 'light' or truth...

Hmm, it's hard to reason this way, could you please define light and dark, good and evil?



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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHATOUSHKA:
i would (dare) dream that any 'god' would be so much more than mere human imagination.
*sigh*
aye!

perhaps even on the atomic level.

but you know, your guess is as good as mine.
here's for throwing wishes into the wind. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A penny for your thoughts.



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Alex

Shatoushka: nice picture.

Tin Heart: I apologize for not responding sooner. I have not intentionally ignored you. Obviously you have some disagreements with the four means of revelation I mentioned. I simply cannot answer every question you posed but I will try to answer the main questions simply and honestly.

1. How do I know that God created the cosmos? By faith we know the universe was made at God's command.

2. Different people have different morals because they choose what is right and wrong for themselves. Conscience doesn't force us to do anything; it simply points out whether we have done right or wrong. Conscience can be seared and silenced so that it is made ineffective. It can be conditioned (take the Holocaust as an example. The Nazi's did what they felt was right and good. Terrorists do the same. But do personal feelings determine what is right? Moral relativism is not proof against God but proof that humanity is screwed up. When everyone does what is right in their own eyes apart from a transcendant moral referrant we have chaos and destruction. (I refer you to the 20th Century as one graphic example.)

3. You simply do not understand what you so confidently affirm about the nature of the Bible, the inspiration of Scripture and the formation of the canon. Nor do you account for the pride and prejudice of humanity (which would explain why so many abuse the Bible--and science, and politics, and religion, et al--for their own purposes).

4. By conceding this point your previous arguments collapse. Don't you realize that if Jesus is God-incarnate then he is the way, the truth and the life? Dismantle the case for Christ and you have demolished christianity.

You may reject or deny Jesus, but you cannot squash the reality of who he is. I think you know who he is but you just don't like him. At least Shatoushka set forth a reason she doesn't like Jesus; she thinks he is a pansy. (That does not correspond to the historical records, but it is her opinion.) What is your opinion of Jesus?

Crash the hostboard if you must, but please deal honestly with the truth.

"I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are very wise and beautiful; but I have never read in either of them: Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest." Augustine


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zelazny: you wanted me to define light and darkness; good and evil. i think you already know what i mean by the terms but i will humor you...since you dared me. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

it seems you have defined light and dark as good and evil. Good enough, but let me specify my understanding of the two from a christian point of view. Jesus is the Light of the world. Whoever follows him will never walk in darkness (sin) but will have the light of life.

Jesus the God-Man is holy, pure and righteous. Darkness refers to sin, a violation of God's revealed law (a moral standard revealed through creation, conscience, canon scripture and Christ.) By following Jesus we journey away from sin and death toward life.

How do we know what the truth is? On the one hand we can cultivate a personal relationship with Jesus. He said of himself "I am the truth."

On the other hand I point you to ponder the various ways God has revealed himself to humanity. The sum of God's revelation is the truth.

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i just have one project--

define 'good' and 'evil'.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

Ummm.. is marturios ignoring me? If so... was it something I said? Didn't say? Does he not like JCS?

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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by marturios:
Divine Point of View
We have not even taken into account the set purpose and foreknowledge of God. That is more than most of you want to consider at this point.

None of the rulers of the age understood Jesus. If they had they would not have crucified him.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of the rulers of the age understood Jesus. If they had they would not have crucified him.

So only the common man had a foreknowledge of God?
I thought that Jesus was killed, in part, because the rulers DID see him as God and were afraid?

Just trying to understand your points....



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http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/eek.gif holy smokes! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/eek.gif


ok, if there ever was good evidence for parallel universes, it must be now.
TH, you kinda remind me of me when i was 16.

OY!

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

*S* Really?

And how do you know I'm not? You, that is. Maybe I/You have an interdemensional ISP server...

Oooh, I wonder if I could turn that into a topic!

*LOL* *Is going to go look for another old thread to druge up now*

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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV

Devil's Advocate: You are partially correct. The Jewish religious leaders handed Jesus over for crucifixion BUT because he claimed to be God. They considered this blasphemy but they did not think he was really god.

Tin Heart: I appreciate your kind words and the effort you took to write all you did. But I want to be clear on one thing. While I openly confessed my hope that all people would become authentic christians I want you to know that I do not think any less of you as person. Ideas have consequences whether one is a christian or not. That is true for you, me and all the others posters here.

The question is can we live consistently and contentedly with the ideas we hold to be true? Some seek empirical evidences and proofs. They will not be convinced unless they see it. But you know that mere evidences cannot persuade otherwise you and others who have honestly weighed the evidence would be christian.

Others seek esoteric wisdom. But you know that mere proverbial insight cannot persuade otherwise you and others who have contemplated the teaching of Jesus would be followers.

The reality is that intent comes before content. People do not believe because they do not want to believe, not because the content is lacking. If they believe the content is insufficient they simply have not explored the content.

I believe the search leads us to the message of the cross. It is God's wisdom and power for those who are being saved, but to the rest it is foolishness and weakness. God is pleased to save those who believe the message.

Christianity rests its case on Jesus Christ and him crucified and resurrected. And so do I.

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Dare2
DV8

[This message has been edited by marturios (edited October 25, 2001).]

Ok, I do believe I stated "If you pushed"

Do you admit Jesus Christ is the ultimate proof for your faith? His death, life and resurrection (not in that order) prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your religion is absolute truth?

Let me introduce you to a concept called the Dali Lama.

He's in fact not a concept, but an anctual person. He is the incarnation of the Budda of Compassion. And he is very much alive and well today!

Lets start with the proof he's the Dali Lama. Since it's certain many people would have CLAIMED to be the Dali Lama, just as I'm sure many people have claimed similar holy roles in the past, they needed a test to find the true one.

When they believed they'd found the Dali Lama, he was a boy. Four or five if I remember correctly, and his parents objected to the idea one of their children could be the Buddha incarnate. Nevertheless, he was put in a room with a variety of objects. Three pairs of gold rimmed glasses, two ornate walking sticks, ect. Without being asked anything, he went through all of them and started picking out "mine".

Each item he claimed as his own belonged to the previous Dali Lama.

This was not an isolated incedent. As he was taken to the temple in Tibet, he broke away from his escort and ran after a merchant shouting "My teeth, my teeth!"

Confused at his behavior, the monks followed him. After much confusion, they found the source of the problem.

Inside a box the merchant was selling were the teeth of the previous Dali Lama.

Now it is unquestioned by many this man is the reincarnation of the Budda of compassion. Many would say this is proof that the Buddhist religion, involving Karma and reincarnation, is the truth.

How do you explain that?

You seem like a very nice person, much nicer then many evangelical Christians I've met. If you plan on doing this full time, or infact DO do this full time, you might want to check out a few books I could recommend. Some of the questions I asked you were to gauge your answers on things. And though it seems you believe simply, like the bible teaches, you might want to rethink just "simply believing" as this is going to be hard to convert other people.

If you've actually read to this point, I recommend reading "The case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. Also, "The Case For Christ" by the same author. Anything by C.S. Lewis is highly recommended by the Christians I know, and I personally recommend his fictional children's books.

Also, you'll find more combative skeptics in reality then you'll find here, so you might want to back up most of you're arguments with some pre-researched facts. "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" volumes 1&2 by Josh McDowell should help as well.

Despite what you may think, I do not hate or necessarily think your religion wrong. I have on occasion defended it to people. And while my not sharing your religion alters how you view me, it does not affect how I perceive you. I wish you more luck on your other witnessing then you had here, as I have nothing against your arguing for what you view as the truth.

After all, isn't that what we're all here for?

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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV