again, lets argue.
state your claim.
------------------
General Philosophy
Printable View
again, lets argue.
state your claim.
------------------
General Philosophy
nah, don't feel like right now.
------------------
Alex
Hello Shatoushka,
I interpret free will to be the equivalent of free choice. Would you agree on that point? As far as your statement that there is no free will, I would have to disagree. If you are talking about fate or destiny then that is a whole other subject, but I believe that we do have the ability to make our own choices. I chose to reply to this message. I chose to come to this message board today. Please explain to me how I acted not by my own free will, but from some other power.
Thank You,
Pragmatic Pete
------------------
i thought i'd save some post time by directly asking you what type of pragmatist you are, pete.
surely its just not another catchy name.
------------------
General Philosophy
I have used many different theories that are all varied, yet still connected to come up with how I interpret pragmatism. Are you familiar with Charles Peirce and William James?
-Pete
------------------
*smokes slow burning pipe*
buttov corzzzzzz!
but thats no way to live your life!
------------------
General Philosophy
But how much of our "choices" are actually guided by influences we did not "choose".
For example (I am over generalizing this example just to make it easier to explain): Boys are historically raise to be the bread winners. Girls are historically raised to be the care-givers. Within these confinds, how much of our decisions or choices are really our own? Aren't we simply reacting to the way we were brought up? Are we not working within the constraints of society - does this fact not hinder our ability for free will or choice?
Just a thought...
------------------
OK, Shatoush, I will post my thoughts again.
Free-Will exists naturally, but it is on a leash of different lenghts for different things, which are all created by nature itself.
I will copy and paste what I said at another forum on this subject where somebody wanted a "definition" of "free-will"
*****************************************
Is "Free-Will" an illusion or Real? I say both.
And there is no contradiction if one can see it both ways.
Let me first put it this way... Definition:
"Free Will" is Real, but a prisoner of Nature (Cause & Effect), on a leash of different lengths.
I will try to explain what I mean.
As long as you are in a temporal form (temporary Human form before one dies), and as Dan correctly mentions...[I don't think he would mind me quoting him here]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We only conceive of things that way because we are not in possession of all the facts concerning it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which could mean, that we are not conscious of All the facts, Causes, which preceded our "thinking", which resulted in a certain conclusion or choice. In that, free will is a prisoner of Cause & Effect.
I might not be able to explain properly, but please bear with me.
Now, one has to think and understand what free will is, other than the definition "we" give to "free-will", what would it mean to Nature? For it does seem to be apparent, that "we" do seem to take a "decision", that seem to be a product of our "own" Mind, because we have "words" which act as Causes to our Mind, and Mind is but a product Caused by Nature.
So it stands to reason, that free will in the end, is a product of Nature, irrelevant of it seeming to be an illusion.
Now, forgetting the definition that looms in our Minds, which is, 'a "choice" made by us "through Logical deduction"'. Could something known as "free-will" exist in Nature? That is other than in Humans.
I say yes, and I will try to show you.
Lets start with the next thing that we consider to be at a lesser "conscious" level than us - animals.
A baby cheetah is as curious about its environment, (watch Discovery), as we are when born. The cheetah grows up with his own experiences, and we with ours. When a grown cheetah goes hunting a gazelle, he does this because of his previous experiences of a failed attempt to down a buffalo. In this, he has "chosen" an easier pray that could be killed easily, rather than the buffalo which in his "experience", cannot be killed by him alone.
Has he exercised "free-will"? Taken a "decision"?
I understand that we call it "instinct", but I don't see it that way. It is very clear to me, that a certain experience has led him to that decision.
Lets get a bit deeper now.
Atoms: Do atoms have a choice?
Atoms will meet with some atoms and reject others. We understand this as an inherent property of an atom, a code, which is imbedded in them through Nature. But, they are exposed to atoms that they surely reject, and recognize them as incompatible. In that, they are "experiencing", "recognizing", and thereby "rejecting". This is a "decision" which an "atom" has made on its "own"(free-will), due to its limited information imbedded in it (prisoner of Nature), and can "choose" to accept or reject another atom.
Does it have "free-will"?
Well, I think so, but it is on a very short leash, and a human Mind, with language, reasoning, and logic, is on a much longer leash than an atom, for it has now developed a complex enough brain to do all the "thinking" it can, but yet is a prisoner of Cause & Effect, that is if one can see that far back, and sink it in his understanding, which is not easy.
Free-will is more a mystery to us, because we have a very complex Mind, and have come to recognize something as free-will, and these complex properties give the ability to "imagine" things, and the Mind questions "imaginations" too, thereby getting entangled in "illusions".
An atom has just a few Causes to choose from. He meets an atom, chooses to meet or not to meet. On the other hand, we are at a much higher level, and can choose and reject from many Causes that are presented to our Minds. For example, my words in this post, will Cause you to think and choose between what I say, what religion says, what mystics say, what numerous other Philosophers say, Isn't it? And you can reject some, accept some, or choose bits and pieces from some, and come up with your own.
So, a human Mind has the capability to accept or reject a far greater "Causes", which are presented to his Mind as meaningful words and ideas, and thereafter deciphered through logic, and a "choice" is then made, be it between choosing religion, or flavor of an Ice-Cream, it's just a matter of degrees.
Animals and other things do not "recognize" or realize "free-will", and thereby are unaware of it, but lead us to believe that they exist in some kind of a Natural Universal Harmony, and are inherently aware of a Grand Cause, because we know what "free will" is, and have a verbal understanding of it. As in, when one sees a Cat lazing around, least concerned about what is happening around it. But actually, the Cat is Not "aware" of its free will, and does not have a complex enough Mind to question it.
The essence of Free-Will cannot be understood from the limited meaning found in a Dictionary, you have to look at Nature.
Every-thing is in a sense ?alive?, and they are all but, a different representation of Nature, on a leash of different lengths of "free-will" allowed.
------------------
....just IMHO though.
"American donuts. Glazed, powdered, and raspberry-filled. Now, how's that for freedom of choice?" - Homer Simpson. I think that sums it up...please close this topic now, problem solved.
------------------
"He called the shit, poop!" - Billy Madison
hmmm....how do i respond....
1) sapius--
its nice to see you here again. i was beginning to wonder about you. it may be tough living a life of dual-personalities, but lets try to keep with the pace. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
oh yeah...and i am surprised that 'dan' had such a profound thought.
2) ek3--
its nice to see you humor me when i need it the most
3) devil's advocate--
you have proven my point nicely
sapius--
don't get excited...i will respond to your prepared post momentarily. i promise.
------------------
General Philosophy
sapius...wow..
kinda like my reasoning: even though the choice was predetermined, it doesn't take away the fact that it still was a choice in the first place.
I can choose between strawberries and okra,
in a way i'm predetermined to like strawberries more than okra so i'll probably choose for the strawberry. But there was the choice between both and i made it, even though the answer was known far in advance.
------------------
Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.
Um...excuse me, but there is such thing as 'Free Will'. How could you forget it? It had a spectacular ending with Willy jumping to freedom over the rocks and swimming to the rest of his family. I would be lying if I said I didn't cry at that movie.
------------------
"If Lincoln had thought being the President was such a longshot, we'd have nobody's picture on the one dollar bill" -Arthur Fonzerelli (The Fonz)
er....moving right along...
zela, if your outcome was predetermined, how can one have free will?
------------------
General Philosophy
because there was the CHOICE, even though it was predetermined what you did or will do, there was the chance to not do it.
It is by my own will that i type this text, i could also have chosen not to, but for some reason i did, and that's the crux here, there may be a reason, but i don't know it, and i don't know in how far it was my choice or just my nurture/nature showing.
So in all honesty it has to be a free choice in my perception.
------------------
Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.
Allow me to live up to my nickname for a second...
If you don't know what these "reasons" are that made you "choose" what you chose, does that negate the fact that these "reasons" exist at all?
------------------
Zela, Excellent! Soon there will be no contradictions in your Mind, and all mysteries of existence will be automatically solved, and answers very apparent to you.
I don't have to answer Shatoush as you have said it well, but allow me rant on.
Life is full of contradictions, and these contradictions are the foundations of what most learned people have called illusions. These "illusions" may well be illusions in some sense, but they do really exist to a Mind created by nature which is in essence Nature itself, which in the wake is in a process of experiencing its own existence, so when we think that "we" perceive, "we" think, "we" feel all the emotions, "we" choose, it is actually Nature doing all those things and experiencing all those things - through ALL of the "living" things - and at the same time!!! A tremendous understanding for a puny little "mind' such as ours, which put together for Nature acts as ONE. It is something unimaginable to an individual mind for it THINKS that it is INDIVIDUAL whereas actually it is not. It's like one of the neurons in our brain that "thinks" it is something complete on its own, and we as individuals are no more than a single neuron to Nature.
Sorry to break this news, but this is as old as the first headline ever reported by Flintstone, and this is exactly what all the learned people of the past have been trying to express since human Mind first started experiencing the power of thinking and reaching certain understanding, little by little.
Let me say again, equate Nature to your self for example. What are you but your Mind, which is but a purer form of energy, (remember someone said - Energy never dies!), which was created through matter - Brain - which is no more than another form of energy, and all matter is one or another form of energy. So basically, it is understood that the bases of cause and effect is the infinite change in form of energy, which is not driven by any external force for it is the Nature of every effect to be a result of a previous cause, and every effect is a cause of a future affect. One cannot ask that where this began because one already knows the answer through science, and that is, Energy never dies, so there could be no point at which it began, and therefore it always existed. All that is happening is that Energy in locked in a multi billion year cycle of changing its from one extreme to another, chaos - balance - chaos, and life is created at each pinnacle of balance and nature experiences its own self. It uses us, and all that you can perceive, think or imagine, as tools. Just as we have the tools of perception and a brain to help us realize all that we perceive, Nature uses us, animals, fishes, trees, flowers, to a lesser degree rocks and even dust, to PERCEIVE and EXPERIENCE its Existence.
What drives the Nature is its inherent quality of experiencing its self and perpetually repeating it eternally through the cycle of self-build and self-destroy. And this cycle is necessary because otherwise it would be a stagnant existence and nothing would be as it is.
We try to look for a "beginning" of Nature because we are used to seeing things having a beginning and an end. We expect everything to act in that way because it would be illogical according to our "known" understandings, but the same is not true for Nature. Imagine that all that there is, are all different organs of Nature that are evolving within it, but there is no "within" because there is no OUT, because there is no end to the extent to that which is Entirety. This then stands to our reason, that although we see things with a beginning and an end, there has to be something unending to run it, and there is no harm in calling it God. The problem arises when we do not accept it not to have a "reactively thinking" Mind, because Nature seems so full of intelligent "design", and somebody has to build it, and run it, just as we build things and run it. The design basically is intelligent, but is an inherent quality of Nature and there is no external "Mind" necessarily needed to run it.
Each individual, that is each Mind, put together could be said to be a collective "Mind" of Nature, and so each Mind is kind of a fragment of God's Mind, but there is no "individual God" as such, because he is all that there is, and everywhere around us. Omni-All! All religions have come to understand God correctly, but simply give it a personality, and all religions seem to attribute different history to it, thereby giving rise to different religions and denominations, and sects, and divisions, and whatever?.. If we put together bits and pieces of certain knowledge found in almost all religion, science, mathematics, mysticism, myths, etc., etc., realizing and choosing the right pieces of a huge jigsaw puzzle and put it together, we can logically see the truth of Reality which has been right under our noses so to speak, and anyone can see it if he solves the contradictions one sees in them, basically it is very simple and logical, but we simply do not see it.
But it is my understanding that nothing can be done about it by forcing it onto others, for ALL that happens, and I cannot emphasize enough on ALL, is absolutely necessary for Nature to experience its existence. What I mean is that all that we think has to be necessarily eliminated to solve the mysteries of Reality, have to first exist necessarily, because what would be there to *Realize* if everything was already known. Wouldn't it be a moot existence then? Just like being in heaven and doing nothing at all. So in a manner of speaking, hell is as important to experience to know about heaven, and then back again to hell to again experience the experience of REALIZING heaven. The key is the experience in the process of realization, not in how and what things that exist.
And hence, I had come to this understanding that "EXPERIENCE" is the sole basis of existence after I went through a period of restless and intense quest of trying to understand the meaning of Existence of All that there is from the age of 9 until about 25. On the other hand, I believe that one has to have a kind of an inherent urge to go in search in this direction, which is basically triggered in certain individual minds that are basically balanced, AND this is not an accomplishment of an individual as we might think, because what are we but Nature at its work, and by a balanced mind I mean, that it is a mind which is somehow very calm and peaceful, and that happens if that mind is somehow automatically is a very "just" and a "loving " mind.
We see that even twins turn out to have different personalities although there was basically no difference between them. Taking their basic "natural personality", which we now know that it might have something to do with DNA, (can you imagine that as a whole we are still in the kindergarten of knowledge as far as Entirety is concerned, and are proud of discovering quarks and a theory of UN-certainty?? Shame on us!!!), proves that there is an inbuilt personal quality through the process of evolution that takes place from the time of conception, but the information comes from millions of causes that preceded it, and ends up in an uniquely individual personality which will experience existence on its own, making its own choices, but is actually only a part of Nature which is doing the same thing in every individual and all are as important and equal to Nature (Remember? All religions say that we all are equal and children of God, this is how! And this is more logical and acceptable to me, which makes me not only love and honor every individual and see no difference between race, religion, cast or creed, but also induces an intense respect and love of everything that exists, for we are carbon based, and why shouldn't I see value in charcoal which is also carbon in a different form, and both and all are form of matter, which is no more that different form of Energy. This does not mean that I start taking any of these material things, or create a non-material thing like Energy into God, but realize that we and all that there is, is so very interdependent on each other to existence, that it is existence itself.)
I'm sorry, you might find that I start with one thing and end up another, but the truth is, that this is so unimaginably vast, so intricate, so interconnected, so interdependent, that one cannot help but drift from one to another, but the key is that once you go through an intense period of confusion and the urge to solve it, you keep on collecting gems of knowledge and in the end it all fits so perfectly well and you suddenly realize it, because then you begin to see all of it at the same time, but cannot explain it as the moment you talk about one thing, the person who hears it, immediately puts forth a question on it because he sees a contradiction, and when you start to explain the un-contradictory nature on that particular point by saying something else, he again sees another contradiction in the new explanation, because he does not keep in mind the whole big picture, and is trying to find sense in the piece of a jigsaw puzzle, which will basically seem contradictory, for it is not the whole, and at that moment he does not see beyond that piece of an individual piece of information, and is confused over it. Just like going too deep into investigating that what we perceive could actually anything else but "RED", so EVERYTHING is subjective and nothing can be know. For Gods sake! That is not what is important, but that you EXPERIENCE something, what ever it may be, IS IMPORTANT. At times even I get frustrated and shut up. It is very true that one has to find his own destiny, and no one else can help another in that sense, except give certain hints and let the person think for himself.
OK, I know that this will raise quite a few questions because I might have left something which to me is obvious, but could be an incomplete sentence to others, so if there are any questions, please keep other relative understandings in mind.
Ah! SHATOUSH, and all, please understand, I am at times in a state of mind when I cannot control its flow, and not remember what I posted where, or who posted what in which thread, but I remember that Shatoush kind of agreed about something I said about dice throwing and how it seems to be a matter of chance, and then, Shatoush, I read somewhere, I could have misread it though, but it seemed to me that you have doubts about Cause And Effect. But that example of throwing of the dice is a good example of Cause and Effect, and that is all that there is to it. Now applying this to everything, all things become a prisoner of Cause and Effect, and given the inherent quality of each thing of accepting and rejecting certain things, which is in turn a code of nature imbedded in all those things, which seems to be Free will, and IT IS basically Free will within certain limits, just that we "think" that "we" can do Anything, and that too all on our own without having anything to do with the fact that it is nature doing all that through us, is what is know as illusion or delusion. Once you understand that, all those seven deadly Sins automatically are eliminated from your mind, because you realize that is was something necessary for Nature to experience in the past to break through it and experience existence on a higher plane. You see, something has to start from a lower level to move on to a higher one, so a lover level has to exist to go through it and reach a higher level, and so on. Now one can ask, so where did it start? But it did not start at any point, because energy never dies, it simply cycles and creates these lower and higher levels perpetually, and that is timeless, so no beginning, no end, only evolving and devolving eternally. For what? To experience its self and enjoy at "our" expense in a sense, so it is as indifferent to us, as much as it needs us, for "we" are its creation, and Nature is creation itself, so it leaves no creator in control. And that is why, one can experience God through visions, but cannot actually see a form because religion says that he doesn't have one, and that is true, because he is in every one of us, in what way? It is the your mind that is a part of God, and all the Minds put together is what makes God, not the other way around, for without our Minds coming into existence, there would be no God. (Philosophers say that and they too are correct) Existence of the Mind is a Mystery, and it is a self-created mystery of Nature to experience its existence, and it uses the very same Mind to solve that mystery, which is a process imbedded in the nature of Nature, and that is what keeps it going and churning. So, in a sense, we are, and all that there is, is what makes up God, and without all that there is, there is no "God". At least not as most religion claim and give personal qualities to a thing that could exist on its own. Yes, if you say that Nature needs nothing to run it, and thereby has a "quality" of God, then it makes sense, but that does not warrant a need to worship it or pray to it, for you would be in effect praying to your self, for it is your own mind which collectively results in a God, but respect nature you must, with all your heart and soul as you would a God.
Another contradiction that one will see is when I say that praying is good and it actually works, Isn't it?
But I say that praying also does work, not as a supernatural phenomenon, or granted by a personal God, nor a mere co-incidence, although it may seem to be co-incidental, we as human have not yet understood or experienced the power of the Mind as individuals, we have heard about Mind over matter, but are not yet evolved enough mentally to actually experience it, but it does happen from time to time as Mind is on the whole evolving, and some simply are able to break out of the norm, and it is very much possible for a mind to effect another mind (hypnosis), over other matter, (examples of people being able to move other objects. Forget about the ones that have been proved to be frauds), mystical experiences of Astro traveling. This is what I mean when I talk about a BIG picture, I have all of these aspects already solved and stored in the back of my mind, and I see them all answered because all of it is now perpetually connected in my mind and nothing seems to be a mystery. It will take me some time to explain my experiences and understandings, but trust me, once it starts falling in place, it is so very simple, that one could faint at its simplicity! I don't know how else to express its impact; an individual on individual basis can only experience it.
I think I have said enough. Please do not mind if I disappear from time to time, I have a life, and at times I'm not mentally present to say something coherent, that does not mean I'm crazy, but to give an example, I could not even begin to tell you what I felt when those planes crashed, killing not only the people on the ground, and the passengers and crew in the plane, but the terrorists too. I include those deluded terrorists and morn for them too. I feel an intense pressure of pain, but no anger or feeling of revenge, even if the dearest thing in all of Entirety would have been annihilated in this act. It is difficult to explain the reason of this to a person who cries out, and instinctively strikes back when somebody breaks down his doll- house. I know one will say it is not the same thing, but I wonder, if it all of what we have built, is anything more than a doll-house, and will not exist very soon, say in a thousand billion years, so what are we fighting over? Fighting over temporary possessions? Fighting to satisfy an empty egocentric emotion of having power? Fighting over having something more compared to another? Which destroys all good things and sets us back instead of going forward hand in hand. It is not the WTC of America that has been destroyed, but the progressive efforts of mankind that has been set back, which will also affect the families and friends of the terrorists, and humanity as a whole. But I guess that this is a thing that happens at the early stages of mental evolution and cannot be avoided, for it is nothing "evil" that does it, but something that resulted because a certain Mind accepted certain Causes presented to its Mind, and rejected others, and concluded that killing innocent people was the only way to make another Mind realize that he has done something wrong which has troubled him.
We have had two wars, this might be the third, and there may be many more before most of us mentally evolve into human beings. I think in terms of eons, and not earthly years.
Oops, there I go again on a different topic. Any way it is 5.40 AM where I live, and since I'm still very well mentally awake, I think I will write up a post that I had promised some time back in a different thread here and post it in a day or two. I think it had something to do on Mind, let me see how I can put it, and where do I begin.
Pardon all grammatical mistakes, and of course, as I have now permanently stamped it into my signature, people who don't agree in what I say, can ask for logical explanations, but cannot say that I'm imposing anything onto them, for it is??.
------------------
....just IMHO though.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:
Allow me to live up to my nickname for a second...
If you don't know what these "reasons" are that made you "choose" what you chose, does that negate the fact that these "reasons" exist at all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I understand correctly, then your question in no way supports the nature of your nickname. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/tongue.gif
Basically it does not negate the fact that "reasons" exist, but since we are not aware of all the reasons behind it, we think that it is a matter of chance, lottery, but then again, the fact that you, Devil's Advocate, exists, and the fact that "you" could NOT exist by a ratio of one to a billion, which in itself is a one to a multi-billion chance, which you won at your last major lottery, which was when "you" were conceived. So "you" could not have been, and it couldn't have been anything else but "you". But in which direction of mental evolution you will end up, will result from the things your mind accepts and rejects, as thoughts and ideas, and as a thing, you have that choice, and there are many things that have been given certain liberty of choice; it is not only us humans that have "free-will" you know. So, free will exists and not at the same time, no contradictions. IF you see one, there is no outside logic that will convince you otherwise, it has to come through your own understanding.
------------------
....just IMHO though.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Zela, Excellent! Soon there will be no contradictions in your Mind, and all mysteries of existence will be automatically solved, and answers very apparent to you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
does that mean i'll be able to read at night without a light bulb? http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
------------------
Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>does that mean i'll be able to read at night without a light bulb?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure Zela, not only that, but in a manner of speaking, when a Mind really opens up, not only will it not need a light bulb, but it would not even need physical eyes to read or lirerally see something. But it happens one step at a time. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
****************
I just noticed....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shatoush: 1) sapius--
its nice to see you here again. i was beginning to wonder about you. it may be tough living a life of dual-personalities, but lets try to keep with the pace. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again I fail to understand what you are saying here Shatoush. Honestly, I don't understand the part of me having a "dual-personality"? And me Keeping up to what pace?
Is it that you find something contradictory in what I say here and at Genius Forum?
I had not posted anywhere recently, not even at Genius compared to here, because I actually looked into the forums just few days ago when I started staying on line for longer periods of time, and I saw that you were again curious about things that I could say something about, and posted response to some. I haven't posted at Genius as yet because David and Dan have not answered some of my much earlier posts. I think because the forum there is a little slow, or they are too busy, or simply want to avoid answering my questions. If avoiding, then it is most probably because; either due to not having an appropriate logical answer that would convince me, quite understandable. OR, my question, which is sometimes actually an answer, is understood but not openly accepted; I understand that too and do not mind if one agrees and keeps quite, but a word in agreement does encourage a person to share more of his experiences. OR, they are so overly engrossed and indulge so deeply and believe in what they have understood till date as a result of their perfect logical thinking, and knowledge of selectively chosen books and thinkers, that they have willfully closed their minds, just like an Academic Philosopher, who cannot have an open mind according to their claim, and do not want to listen or discuss what they might consider a futile exercise according to their conclusion of understanding of Reality, which cannot be un-true since it seems illogical to them otherwise.
I just know that although David claims to be somewhat of a deliverer of the wanna-be enlightened, is still struggling himself in trying to eliminate one of the basic illusions that will let one see the light of day, and that is control over emotions, which is just the beginning of which is to come.
I will post there soon, but for now, even I am not in the mood to argue with people who are filled with pride of artificial thoughts of knowledge, and chase after a Single Absolute Truth Of Reality, or something of that sort, whereas according to there own logic, it should not exist.
FYI, think about it, how could there be One Absolute, when there are billions of things being caused at the same time, never stopping, perpetually repeating, changing form from one thing to another, no stop or start at any point, a continuous chain of events in the form of cause and effect, in all and every different direction, which is basically so immense in size that even if one says that he knows and understands it, he could not even begin to imagine its vastness; now looking for An Absolute Truth is nothing new, but we already have answered it long time ago, God, that is the only thing that is Absolute with all its attributes, otherwise, we just exist because Entirety just IS, and that is because Energy never dies, and people like David, end their statement with "...Entirety just IS", that's it, and one cannot logically question it! But we already have the answer to it and it is not illogical to question it! How stupid can we be??? We already know that Energy never dies, and that is the reason that all that there is, IS, and could not have a beginning at any point of time, and the only Truth is that it exists and makes all else possible, and the Entirety is perpetually changing, and cannot have an Absolute within itself, or OUT of "it" for that matter. Simple.
Although I seem to understand a great deal, if not all, as far as these kind of thoughts are concerned, I don't seem to understand how you see a dual-personality in me? Can you give me an example of my post where you see this? I'm really curious to know, as to what I say is why so confusing to others, so that I may try and say it differently. I know my English is not that good, but still, I think I can handle it quite ok.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shatoush:
Sapius--
don't get excited...i will respond to your prepared post momentarily. i promise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excited?! Where do you see me getting excited about anything I say, and in what sense? And what prepared post? Most of the time I struggle writing it on line, I have a T1 connection and is not very expensive.
Please respond, with something that could refute my prepared post logically, I am really open to knowledge, and am ready to change my opinion at any time. My sig line should tell you some thing about my flexibility and adaptability to new thoughts, and you will also never see me wanting someone else to follow what I say.
------------------
....just IMHO though.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sapius:
But in which direction of mental evolution you will end up, will result from the things your mind accepts and rejects, as thoughts and ideas, and as a thing, you have that choice, and there are many things that have been given certain liberty of choice; it is not only us humans that have "free-will" you know.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do we really have the choice in what our mind accepts and rejects? Are we not the product of history and of what those have "thought" before us? Meaning, do we ever have a unique thought? If no, I can not see how we can have free will - because if our thoughts are predetermined, our choices would seem to be as well.
I am curious as to what others think about this idea.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sapius:
So, free will exists and not at the same time, no contradictions. IF you see one, there is no outside logic that will convince you otherwise, it has to come through your own understanding.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry - I don't think I understood this section of your reply - can you clarify?
------------------
sapius--
well, ok.
i never understood why you posted at genius in the first place.
sure, i posted there...but it doesn't take a freakin genius to discover that you are arguing to a brick wall.
i wouldn't even waste my time.
if you feel the above about Absolute Truth(in your post), why argue to someone that doesn't care what you think?
it seems that the members of genius, are intent on using you to rectify their judgments of themselves.
basically, you make them look good (to themselves).
screw that.
------------------
General Philosophy
*pops open bottle*
~~stishhhhhhh~~~
*reads thread again*
*chuckles in minor contempt*
its a fine day.
------------------
General Philosophy
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:
[quote]
Do we really have the choice in what our mind accepts and rejects?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no, but that's okay since you are your mind and vice versa.
if your mind accepts something, it's YOUR mind, it's you.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Are we not the product of history and of what those have "thought" before us? Meaning, do we ever have a unique thought? If no, I can not see how we can have free will - because if our thoughts are predetermined, our choices would seem to be as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can believe that all is determined, from the choices we get to the choice we take.
But the point is, there is the choice.
no matter what you choose, a choice is a choice, may the choice you get be determined just like the response you give on it.
but there was a choice.
YOU decide to take the strawberry, even though it was clear from the start that you would.
When your friends expect you will do something, and you turn out to do it, do you say it was predetermined?
------------------
Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.
[This message has been edited by zelazny (edited September 27, 2001).]
Well, Zela has said something close, but it may not be very clear to some.
I have responded to few other threads and I'm done for now, let me get back on this later..... *O! bed sweet bed* *yawn* *yawn*
------------------
....just IMHO though.
OK, I will first try to explain a bit more to our friend employed by dear Devil, and then tell Shatoush why I started and still do post at Genius.
DA, There is this old joke about how one would never win a case in Heaven; one could never find an Advocate there. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Me: But in which direction of mental evolution you will end up, will result from the things your mind accepts and rejects, as thoughts and ideas, and as a thing, you have that choice, and there are many things that have been given certain liberty of choice; it is not only us humans that have "free-will" you know.
Devil's Advocate: Do we really have the choice in what our mind accepts and rejects?
Are we not the product of history and of what those have "thought" before us? Meaning, do we ever have a unique thought? If no, I can not see how we can have free will - because if our thoughts are predetermined, our choices would seem to be as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A Big yes, and basically no. I will get back to this, but before that we should understand something else which makes the above more apparent.
As I always like to explain it so, understanding the mysteries of our existence is like putting a BIG jigsaw puzzle together. What usually happens though is that people get hold of a single piece, understand it, and find another few pieces, and then, either logically (Reason) or by faith (Religion) try to deduce what the rest of the picture should be like, you can get a million interpretations. But they hold totally different pieces because they pick it up according to their own understandings. Say out of 100 pieces, Science sees 20 pcs, Mathematics sees 30, Physics sees 15, a person with mystical experiences sees 25, an Advocate http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif sees 25, a profit or an enlightened person sees, may be 60 or 50 or 80, but it might not necessarily be the very same pieces that every one holds, and the enlightened and profits include many pieces from science and other such fields. Science not necessarily as understood today, but understanding the intricacies of Nature is no more than a Science deduced mentally without any academic background. Nature is not a "thing", but is made up of every damned thing we can perceive, think or imagine, including our minds. So, understanding Mind is also a science, which is not taught in schools. Well, in a way, Philosophers do that, but many do not necessarily include pieces found in other fields, because certain pre-conceived and well-established logic does not allow it.
Science and subjects of the kind hold on to things that can be proven, Mathematics goes further by providing formulas that cannot be proven yet, but still make some sense, mysticism is totally a personal based experience, and although they cannot prove anything, hold a totally different set of pieces, and so on.
Now all of the above and more, whether provable or not, does exist in the very same Universe, only that we choose to "believe" according to whatever our logic concludes. There are people who believe that we never went to the moon, supported by logical reasoning, whereas others prove the opposite.
So, who is to say that a mystic does not actually experience something that which is generally believed to be a delusion or some form of mental displacement?
In my experience, it will not be until one sieves out the "logical" basis to these mysteries, and puts other Scientific proofs together, sieves the spark of truths found in Religions, (basically most of the pieces lie there) to finally see a BIG picture.
Basically, there are bits of many many rudimentary things, found in almost all fields, and the greatest one being the experiencing of the Nature, which does not mean sitting in front of a tree and watching it grow, but really looking into EVERY THING you perceive, every verbal or thought provoking interaction you have with any human being, trying to understand every emotion and where all, how and why do they exist at all; and all this and much much more has to be in your mind at the same time to at least see a much bigger picture if not THE BIG picture, for now.
One of the main things that our logic and the system of thinking have come up with is seeing things as black and white. For the simple reason that once it starts to operate logically, it starts wondering and questioning everything it comes across, including "thinking" itself, but most of the things connected to understanding metaphysical existence lie in a gray area. The black and white world necessarily shows contradictions; its either this or that, and that is the beginning point of understanding rudimentary phenomenon such as in Science, Physics, Chemistry, all the way down to House keeping. One cannot readily believe that if I keep a particular pillow on the bed, the very same could exist in another bedroom. Simple logic, isn't it?
Now, Metaphysical existence needs "belief" for most of the people, because they have never experienced what it is like to be in more that one place at the same time. Now, if everyone automatically pops up in that kind of existence, it would be a moot existence, for the simple reason that he would have nothing to compare it to and understand the experience of metaphysical existence.
Tell me, what would be more exciting, to be born in a world where there is no sadness and one is always happy, or in a world where we have both, and appreciate happiness to a greater extent because we KNOW what is sadness.
So it is necessary for us to go through a world of contradictions so that we may on our own, with each individually based experience, may know what a non-contradictory world is. And since it is a mixture of Science and Metaphysics, we are yet to combine it together to see a non-contradictory world, but our black and white mind does not allow it for all people because it has yet to go far. We are like two days old infants as far as the Universal Evolution is concerned, and cannot expect all people to experience a well developed logic of a grown up, which would mean understanding a non-contradictory existence, logically. In the future, if we don't kill our selves off first, say in a million years, our basic logic would have changed according to information fed to the Mind.
Just as we find that a certain person seems to be more "mature" than another, and that there are rare occasions of some geniuses sprouting (I mean Einstein and Mozart kind), we could have certain Minds that are Naturally driven towards metaphysical quest, and people such as profits, mystics, and enlightened people, are able to break through and experience it in reality. How profits have tried to explain it in a language that others could understand (mostly parables), and how people have tried to interpret that in a million ways, is another story. And how an enlightened person has tried to explain it by giving worldly analogies, because it is not something one can easily communicate without the other person not having experienced it. If one has never ever tasted a banana, how can you explain in words as to what it tastes like? Yes, you could give many different examples of what might it might be close to, how it looks like, but you could never make that person actually experience the unique taste of a banana, unless it touches his taste buds; Same goes for explaining a metaphysical experience to someone who has never experienced it. Hence, all the enlightened people have always said, that it is not something one can give to another, but will be apparent if experienced on their own. So in a way, all they could do is try to leave traces and would-be methods to lead others to it, and there are more than one ways according experiences of different people. Buddhism, Kabala, Sufism, different Hindu system of Meditation, Christian Mystics who dedicate their entire lives to following a certain mystical path according to a Saint or particular teaching that they pull out of the Bible or other books of "belief". But there is also another way if one can shed pre-conceived logic and work Philosophically by making just one simple assumption, which basically also comes from our already known Science. And I know that people will first reject that assumption, because assumption IT IS, for them, since they are yet to experience it as reality, and that is the only reason that holds back a person from speaking out loud.
Now, do we have free will? Yes and No.
Free Will (freedom to make a "choice") is on a leash (bound to Cause and Effect) of different lengths (allowances) for different things.
(Don't think that it is a property of us Humans Only, I have explained it earlier and will do it below)
As I mentioned earlier, Cause and Effect is no more than Energy changing form from one thing to another, and so the cycle goes on without any end, nor having a beginning. And this is not my unique discovery.
But in the wake of Universal Evolution, Nature creates a Mind, which is on a far longer leashing than an atom. An atom, as our present knowledge tells us, has a certain code imbedded in it to meet and reject another Atom. But, it first detects, recognizes, and "chooses" to meet or not to meet in a sense. Now this is a very short leash, all it has to "decide" is to meet or not to meet, and Nature is not behind every Atom with a stick directing it to do what it already has the liberty to do, but it is Nature which has imbedded the code in it. Now saying, "Nature has imbedded" is also not correct because it is an inherent imbedded thing, which is "natural" through Energy. Confusing eh? It is very natural for us not to "believe" such attributions because we do not Know the Reality of Nature.
In any case, when Nature reaches a certain balance it creates life, (remember, Nature experiments, and is not ALL perfect), and when a billion of things fall in place, it is able to create a Complex Mind in Humans, (we are no more than tools to Nature and act in the same way as our tools of perception act to us), in now able to accept and reject far more "Causes" than an Atom. I don't mean physical causes, but a Mind which is now complex enough to create Language, communicate verbally, even talk to its own self, and Logically create Concepts and ideas, and logically accept and reject them; A far greater deciding power than an Atom. Now you can thing and do many more things at the same time. You could be thinking about Nature sitting on a toilet seat, answering another call of Nature. Controlled by the one Brain, which controls your physical movements and generates a Mind, which thinks.
So for all practical purposes, "you" do make the decision, because Nature has given you the allowance, but only after Millions of Causes, which have affected "you" from time immemorial until "you", exist. (And this is what the Mystics mean when they say "YOU" do not exist in a sense), and hence eventually all goes back to the imbedded code, in everything, only that it now has many more individually based freedom of thought decision, but still will act according to un-realizable verbal and environmental Causes.
For example, all ideas put forth act as causes to a mind to go in a certain direction, by choosing any of those, rejecting, or taking bits and pieces form different ones and come up with an ORIGINAL idea, which it can on its own, but there were many causes that influenced his original thought. This includes, (I will just mention in a broader sense) where he was born? Family he was born in? Did they follow a religion or not? If yes, which one? Which school he went to? What kind of books and people did he get to interact with? At home with family relatives and friends, at school and collage, at his work place; basically all that one has come across and been exposed to and kept changing his Mind by choosing according to information received. Above all that, a Mind has the capability of thinking and speaking to its self verbally, which needs very little input from another Mind to come up with his own original idea, but what CAUSES that, is a Mind, a complex CODE Caused by Nature, and hence in this sense it is a prisoner of Cause and Effect.
I guess that answers your original question, but I'm sure many will be in doubt.
I am going to post this at another forum, not Genius though, since I cannot keep on writing similar things again and again, and normally I do not keep copies of what I say, and a similar thing on metaphysics has come up there. In any case, I cannot say it in a more eloquent or coherent manner to collect all that I say, I jump form one aspect to another because it is so vast and heavily interconnected and interdependent, that one cannot help but go astray.
I hope you don't mind DA, and Shatoush of course, because it might include you quotes too, and may be others at times. If anybody has any objections, please speak up now.
------------------
....just IMHO though.
[This message has been edited by Sapius (edited September 29, 2001).]
In your humble opinion, dear Sapius, your posts may look of a fair size. In my not that humble opinion, your posts bring my machine to its knees. Before pouring your thoughts, you may moderate them, prune them so that your point becomes comprehensible.
Best regards
------------------
Never onlyne
Oops! I forgot this one.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Me: So, free will exists and not at the same time, no contradictions. IF you see one, there is no outside logic that will convince you otherwise, it has to come through your own understanding.
DA: I'm sorry - I don't think I understood this section of your reply - can you clarify?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me see.....Ah! yes. What I mean is, if you find contradictions in anything, as I once did, in fact quite intensely, which led me to thorough mental investigation on my own, you will not readily accept what others say because it goes against your present logical understanding.
So what I did was, taking a rational assumption, tried to deduce certain mysteries of existence, and one of them fits so well that it answers almost all mysteries of physical and metaphysical nature.
This is possible when you basically do not go too deep and immediately reject something because you see contradictions and close the chapter, but keep on investigating other things which seem to have contradictions, keeping all of them somewhere back of your mind, and once a certain assumption answers one question, you suddenly realize that in fact it answers all those contradictions you hold in your mind, and like a falling domino line, all of them can now be easily understood.
And in my experience, all this happens if your mind is naturally, and very intensely, driven in a quest of understanding things of physical and metaphysical nature from an early age, and is so imaginative that it does not need much academic education to deduce and philosophically come up with rational thoughts. And the cumulative experiences that result from interacting with People and Nature, Plus, how Balanced a mind you have become; I now KNOW what is the Real meaning of Love, but only after I first took it as a false attachment and illusion, and then realizing it in the true sense again. But If I come to thing of it, I always loved others naturally. Although somewhere along the line, I internally believed that it was a false attachment, and thought that there is no harm in simply acting as if I am the same, it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! For I found out that it is very essential to have a loving Mind, because it brings peace, and removes Hate automatically, and hence Anger, which results in a very well balanced and peaceful Mind which can now move on to other things by being able to focus with a concentration which a meditator longs for, sitting under a tree for a hundred years, and I could get it living among all my loved ones all the time. But let me tell you this, I did live all alone by myself for the last 20 or so years, and I am naturally prone to spent time all by myself, without doing anything and not getting bored, just sitting and thinking away, which I do even now to relax, and many things come to mind. I do have my mood swings from time to time for no apparent reasons, or due to certain things that disturb me at times, but I do not go wild at any time, because of a well-balanced Mind, and I can control it almost immediately.
There is practically nothing that could provoke me to even dislike anything or anyone. Yes, there are good and bad things, but they are all necessary for us to experience, for how would we experience good if there were no bad? And once you see no contradiction in good and bad, you kind of begin to love both of them, for basically they exist and not, at the same time - exist because they are all real, and not because they hold no inherent essence or meaning in them, they are all tools to know the physical, and hence see the difference and EXPERIENCE the metaphysical. Where emotions are not needed anymore.
I do not always speak unless spoken to; I respond better when I am questioned on things that I have understood, and will be glad if it helps someone, but it is not what I can give someone. So keep on asking and I will do my best to explain.
I think I must have confused in some other direction now DA, so go ahead and ask, but please give me time for I give a lot of time to myself, and at times I give myself a longer break.
------------------
....just IMHO though.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pplaverita:
In your humble opinion, dear Sapius, your posts may look of a fair size. In my not that humble opinion, your posts bring my machine to its knees. Before pouring your thoughts, you may moderate them, prune them so that your point becomes comprehensible.
Best regards
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I'm extremely sorry for your machine; I will try my best to make it as short and succinct as possible. I answer questions on-line and as they come to my mind. A very close friend of mine in RL, we know each other since we were 6~7, told me that I think faster than I speak, and end up speaking incoherently. But to be succinct, I cannot help it due to many reasons.
On the other hand, I would suggest you to keep certain thoughts in mind even if they are not clear enough, and it might all fit into place all of a sudden. You could always ask for clarifications, I will try to be brief. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
....just IMHO though.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHATOUSHKA:
sapius--
well, ok.
i never understood why you posted at genius in the first place.
sure, i posted there...but it doesn't take a freakin genius to discover that you are arguing to a brick wall.
i wouldn't even waste my time.
if you feel the above about Absolute Truth(in your post), why argue to someone that doesn't care what you think?
it seems that the members of genius, are intent on using you to rectify their judgments of themselves.
basically, you make them look good (to themselves).
screw that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I said earlier that I would get back to this, so here I am.
Shatoush, Let me tell you something more about my nature, which although had to do something with my DNA, but the world and my experiences have had an major impact on. I understand that many will see contradictions in my "words", but they are all that they are - words. But there is no contradiction in my Mind as to whatever I say.
I consider all people at Genius, and all here, and each and all othere souls that exist, and ever existed, to be unique gems and creations of "God". And basically they are no different than me. You are most probably a christian, so how could you not love any person or thing created by God?
And that is the foundation of everything that Juses thought.
You must have known many people who say this, but how many do you know that mean it?
There is no person in the Universe that I could basically ever hate, for whatever s/he may be. I know it is difficult to "believe", so lets just leave it at that, and get on with life. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
....just IMHO though.
hehehehehehehehe, my free will made me do it.
------------------
Alex
There is no such thing as not free will.
------------------
hmmmmm.....
expand?
------------------
~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
free will or no free will is a false dichotomy, it can not exist and it can not , not exist because it is not really the issue, the issue is origination, and origination has been observed in quantum events, which have been shown to occure with in the human brain.
To explain quantum events to those who are unfamilliar (and to do so in an over simplistic manner), first there is nothing, and chaos, and lack of identity or value, or substance, then all of the sudden BOOM! a unique Idea, substance, concept or some other such morsel of information entirley unique in the universe, and the parent to a unique set of reprecussions leading waaaaaaaaay down the line to happy things like universes, life consciousness etc.
Free will is a mis enterpretation at a distance of somthing which is much vaster then we even can see from our spatiotemporal location, it is the proverbial tip of the iceberg, and a mis enterpretation of the tip at that. Furthermore it can not be a case of no free will, because that would lead us to believe that we absolutly lack any of the components which make up free will, and since the false concept of free will and the factual concept of original quantum events shair a meager few pieces, and elements that can not be the case.
------------------
Lets keep this one exceedingly simple
1) free will is your right to choose!
2) the illusion is that you can have what you choose, because, just because you choose it, doesn't mean you can have it! (in case of doubt, see #1))
3) therefore, free will is that ability to choose, but it is NOT the power to enforce the chioce!.....simple as dat!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckminster Fuller:
There is no such thing as not free will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure there is. When the doctor taps your knee in just the right place, and it springs forward like a rubber band.
------------------
Alex
I think you all blindly missed my point.
------------------
i haven't.
------------------
~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
Hey, B.F., (although I don't believe taking the name of a famous person really does anything other then LESSEN my perception of you) You state that there is no such thing as NOT free will, try to stop breathing, use your will 'power' to demonstrate that your free will is capable, cause I can assure you, It is NOT......free will!
Tan Q, for dee time http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/tongue.gif
------------------
Ignorance may be bliss, maybe that's why I'm such a happy guy!
Shatouska,
I know you got it, I shouldnt have said "all".
And now for chachi here,
Ok Chachi,
go do some reading on quantum events already will ya!? And no it's not my job to run the search for you and post the link, what do I look like your mommy? if you dont want to do it because you are too lazy, and you want to remain uninformed thats fine, but dont expect me to address any of your posts in the future.
Let me reiterate although I sense I am conversing with a unwavering determinist ( :P *makes rasberry sound* ) ; Free will (in it's intirety which encludes all it's pieces) is not the case (all it's pieces can not absolutly be said to be the case) and neither is Not free will (in it's totality with *Not* all it's pieces, because it can not be said that none of it's pieces are the case) some are partialy the case and some are not. I will not subject myself to your stagnant polorization of thought, HA! so there!
One more thing Boy wonder, Bat Man doesnt like being called B.M. and I dont like being called B.F. capice?
------------------
[This message has been edited by Buckminster Fuller (edited October 15, 2001).]
Who are you Buckminster? What are you? What is that you have and makes me tremble when words come out of your mind?
------------------
Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers!