Billy Ward Lessons?

Billy Ward is going to be offering some lessons up here, during his clinic tour. My question is, what is your idea of what you would be willing to pay for a lesson with him? He is charging $100 per hour, and that is more than i have paid for lessons with Chapin and Rosenblatt. They each were, i believe, $50 an hour. I know for a fact Jim was because i have studied with him a few times... Joel may have been between $60-$80... not sure.

Anyways, Billy is such a unique player and has alot of offer, i am sure. I have taken a master class with him before and it was truly a great experience. However, $100 for an hour of the man's time... what are your thoughts?

I know guys like Weckl and Thomas probably charge upwards of $200 or so. Billy, in my opinion, is to groove and uniqueness, what Thomas and Dave are to chops in a "technical" realm.

I would usually drop $100 in the blink of an eye for lessons with him, but after losing some hours at my job and the holidays just having past, i have to think this one over (unfortunately).

Any thoughts?

Hey,

I think it is a little too much, but back in the day I did pay the $100, the difference was what he showed me was not on DVD yet. Now, his DVD covers everything he would teach in a private lesson. Get his DVD, and you will have more information than in an hour long lesson.

This is my opinion anyway.

Keep the Groove Happening!

How much did he offer you in the way of really analyzing what you were doing and really offering some concrete things to work on? I wouldn't really want to leave the lesson with an abstract concept bouncing around in my head of what i need to work on, leaving my more confused that before i walked in! I function better when someone says, "Hey, ok, see that, you should really work on this... maybe this suggestion will work."

I know Billy focuses alot on abstract ideas, which is great and i love it, but when it comes to private lessons... i would want someone to really take my playing and offer my a bit of both, concrete suggestions and maybe some abstract Zen [img]tongue.gif[/img] ... if you will [img]wink.gif[/img]

Ward is insane to be charging that much.

Look. He has a DVD out with extensive info about his approach. Secondly and most importantly, it's not that I dont think he has anything to offer, but I do think that what makes Billy special can't be taught.
He's a fantastic player but I think the Ward hype outweighs the Ward.

This is another post where I think I'm being a dick but I am being honest. It's a conflict of interest sometimes.
Honesty VS Soical Discretion. ROUND ONE. FIGHT!

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Look. He has a DVD out with extensive info about his approach. Secondly and most importantly, it's not that I dont think he has anything to offer, but I do think that what makes Billy special can't be taught.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is very, very true... that is what makes me wonder about lessons with him, if that 'thing' he has can really be taught... and if some of this approach COULD be taught, i would guess it would mean many, many sessions with the guy over a couple/few years, not one hour.

It is very tantalizing to think of getting lessons with a player that i dig... however, i don't know how changed one could be after an hour, especially the type of things i am sure he is going to be teaching... those are osmosis-type things/wisdom things, not, "hey, we only have an hour so check this out" type-of-stuff.

With a player of Billy's depth, i just wonder what i could get out of an hour... i wonder how much of it could truly sink in that amount of time. [img]confused.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 18, 2005 10:02 AM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>

I AGREE - Billy will not be able to teach you anything ontop of what has been covered in his DVD... what makes him unique can not be taught, true.

The $100 is for his name. I would pay that price for a TOP technician like Mayer, Virgil or Lang, but not Ward.

P.S. matricks... when will Ward be in Seattle!?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 16, 2005 04:50 AM: Message edited by: CLWarunki ]</font>

I know Billy is doing a West coast clinic tour--not too many dates. If you live in an area that does not offer many clinic or private lesson opportunities--it's worth it...even if it may seem a bit over priced.

I think we'd all be surprised how our local colleges probably offer us great players and far cheaper lessons.

Living in LA is NOT normal musically. I recently found out my favorite drummer from my high school years lives only miles away from me. I Emailed him and he said he'd give me a lesson. I'll probably do it just to see the guy--early impressions run deep.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 16, 2005 09:35 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

BW Clinic Dates

30 JAN 2005
Lemmon Percussion
1427 The Alameda
San Jose, California 95126
phone: 408/286-9150
Clinic Time: 6:00 pm
(with masterclass/lessons on 31 JAN 05)

02 FEB 2005
American Music
4450 Fremont Avenue North Suite 100
Seattle, WA 98103
phone: 206/633-1774
Clinic Time: 7:00 pm
(with possible masterclass/lessons on FEB 5, '05. Call the store for details)

03 FEB 2005
Donn Bennett Drum Studio
13212 Northeast 16th Suite 7
Bellevue, WA 98005
phone: 425/747-6145
Clinic Time: 7:00 pm
(with masterclass/lessons on FEB 4, '05)


07 FEB 2005
Hi-5 Music
530 Northeast Garden Valley Boulevard
Roseburg, OR 97470
phone: 541/492-8533
clinic time: 7:00 pm

10 FEB 2005
Musician?s Institute
1655 North McCadden Place
Hollywood, CA 90028
phone: 323/860-1142
Clinic Time: 12:00 pm

12 FEB 2005
Rhythm House Music
652 Stevens Avenue
Solana Beach, CA 92075
phone: 858/481-3069
clinic time: 1:00 pm

Yeah:

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02 FEB 2005
American Music
4450 Fremont Avenue North Suite 100
Seattle, WA 98103
phone: 206/633-1774
Clinic Time: 7:00 pm
(with possible masterclass/lessons on FEB 5, '05. Call the store for details)

03 FEB 2005
Donn Bennett Drum Studio
13212 Northeast 16th Suite 7
Bellevue, WA 98005
phone: 425/747-6145
Clinic Time: 7:00 pm
(with masterclass/lessons on FEB 4, '05)

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">However, the American Music Store clinic will be at the Seattle Drum School, 206-364-8815.

So Billy is basically doing two clinics in Seattle... [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

You'll probably just spend that $100 on something stupid anyway. Might as well get a drum lesson out of it. [img]wink.gif[/img]

If $100 seems ridiculous, buy the DVD, and if possible see him play live with a band. DEFINITELY see him play live with a band.


The $100 WILL allow Billy to see specifically what you're doing wrong.

In defense of Billy, I do not know what the going rate really is. Billy is a deep guy and has a lot of integrity. His lesson is solely 1:1 and he gives it his all to understand each individual student. I always here guys say, ?Hey, I can get two DVD?s for the price of one lesson.? You?re right you can. And a video or DVD is NOT a drum lesson. Anyone who teaches knows the difference. If you want tips & tricks?hey there are a lot of videos and DVD?s out there for that...right?

You go to a lesson for the 1:1 thing. Keep in mind Billy lives in NYC and it ain?t cheap living there. I think he shelled out a lot of his own coin for his DVD BigTime. Also, his fee during clinics might be to weed out those seeking a ?sliding scale??he only has so much time & energy. Unlike Jim Chapin who can talk drums all day, not everyone is geared to that sort of thing. I think he does the private lessons as a favor to the shops sponsoring him. He can only do but a few a day and if you pay $100, you probably are serious about the time spent together.

Simply truth is this?too much? Well, no lesson. Want a lesson with him? Shell out the coin. Simply as that.

Anyone who would charge that much is factoring in the "celebrity" factor. You're not only paying for a lesson, but paying to be in their company. That's my impression. Of course, it may be a simple "supply/demand" thing.

Funny thing is, the drummer who would probably benefit the most from a lesson will be the one who can't afford it. We're musicians and not investment bankers...

[quote]Originally posted by leonardface9:

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When someone reaches the level of 'fame' Mr. Ward has, someone has to always try and bring them down. <font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 19, 2005 12:57 AM: Message edited by: leonardface9 ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh wait a sec, you mean steve holmes didn't create this site and forum in celebration of dave weckl and vinnie? He just created it to bring them down since they're famous right? Ah yeah, I see what you mean! But seriously, he made an opinion without being derrogatory.

For me, I think it would be worth spending that money for any great drummer that I admire, my only question is, how much do you actually get to learn in one hour? It'll be over before you know it.

The DVD IS a drum lesson, but with more information than in a private one hour lesson.

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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
Ward is insane to be charging that much.

Look. He has a DVD out with extensive info about his approach. Secondly and most importantly, it's not that I dont think he has anything to offer, but I do think that what makes Billy special can't be taught.
He's a fantastic player but I think the Ward hype outweighs the Ward.

This is another post where I think I'm being a dick but I am being honest. It's a conflict of interest sometimes.
Honesty VS Soical Discretion. ROUND ONE. FIGHT!

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Howdy Mr. Holmes.

I see you think Mr. Ward is not worth $100.00 per hour. Well, just imagine yourself in his shoes. You are on a Clinic Tour, and any off time you have is precious. But the stores pressure you into doing 1 hour lessons. You would rather be reading, listening to music or recording music/tracks for much more money than $100.00 (very possible with today's Internet technology).

So I think $100.00 is a bargain indeed to take an hour out of the life of one of the great drummers of our era. Simply because he brings real thoughts, fears and the overall srangeness of what we do for either fun or a living, I think is what really bothers you.

Mr. Ward isn't everyones cup of tea. But I have learned and grown very much due to his MD articles. I'll gladly buy his DVD when I can afford it (BTW, he's still in debt from making that DVD), because he is about much more than technique. I wish you could see that.

When someone reaches the level of 'fame' Mr. Ward has, someone has to always try and bring them down. But Mr. Spagnardi knew a jewel when he saw one, and that's good enough for me. Mr. Spagnardi also knew Mr. Ward isn't just 'hype', he's one in a million (just like Poopypants over at the Evans Forum - the man is a monster and master of the drum kit).

Original Prankmonkey

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 19, 2005 12:57 AM: Message edited by: leonardface9 ]</font>

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Originally posted by NJ-Kris:
The DVD IS a drum lesson, but with more information than in a private one hour lesson.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't get this whole "buy the dvd, it's just like taking a lesson" thing. It's not like you're going to go in and he's going to read the script from his dvd to you. DVD's are great and you can learn a lot from them but, the bottom line is, there is nothing like private one-on-one instruction from someone.

If you're worried about how much you might get from an hour lesson then plan ahead. Think about what you want to learn and try to relate it to that players specific skills. Most of these guys can give you a lifetimes worth of practice in an hour lesson.

I'd have no hesitation paying $100 for a lesson with Billy. Someone already alluded to this, but I'll expound upon it....Billy's time is worth something too. You can't knock him for his rates if he can make at least as much doing something else, like a gig. He can determine what his time is worth and set his rate accordingly. If it isn't worth it to you, then don't pay, but it's asinine to criticize him for it.

As for me, I've corresponded with Billy on the forums as well as met him in person. He's a VERY cool person, awesome drummer, and I know without a doubt he can offer a lot in one lesson. It's routinely said that one lesson from him will last you a year. That's a great return on investment.

As for the "Ward" hype....you said it yourself, "He's a fantastic player..." There's no exaggeration in regards to his ability, humbleness, and contributions to the drumming community.

Right. DVD's can indeed contain "lessons," & also be a great lesson in & of themselves, but then again they may not necessarily be as indy private lessons per se, either.

Really [& I agree w Rudy], Holmes didn't criticize him in a despondent way, either:
//"it's not that I dont think he has anything to offer, but I do think that what makes Billy special can't be taught.
He's a fantastic player but I think the Ward hype outweighs the Ward"//

Honest & forthright. No criticism. In fact, it was a compliment basically, except for maybe the last sentence, which wasn;t a slam, just an opin.

Agreed, Ward is a fine player [& Stv also gave him that]. He can charge whatever $ he wants. It's his right. No problem, capitalism at its best.

I, however, also have the right to say I would never pay that amount to anyone for just a 1 hr lesson. Prob not even VC, VD, or DW [altho sometimes a cat will go overtime]. It's just not rational, but if you have the name & can back it up, well...more power to ya. But I won't be there. $25 - yes. $50 - MAYBE. I can think of 100 other way more important things to do w that amt of $ [as little or as large as that sum may be, depending upon your perception, AWA financial disposition [img]wink.gif[/img] ].

Besides, I can log on here & occasionally hear plenty of cosmic guru mantra enlightenment anyway... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'm w Holmes on this one. But if Ward can get it, more power to him! [Then he can join the ranks of some of the more popular TV evangelists AW!] J/K !! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But I do agree that charging that price will prob weed out a lot of BS...or more accurately perhaps, make putting up w some of it worth more his while... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

*Ding ding ding!* [This round over...round 2 begins]...where's the nice lady walking the perimeter with the numbered sign?! ;c)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 25, 2005 02:03 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

Interesting points one and all... oh by the way, a big HELLO to the new contributors to the board. Did I see posts: 1 on a couple?!

As for Billy, I have the DVD and it's very useful indeed. He's a gifted drummer and musician with a really deep understanding of groove, tempo and feel. It's refreshing to see a drummer that really and truly cares about every note he plays, as he says on his DVD "you have to love all the notes and the spaces between them". It's great to watch him play the drums with shakers and funny beaded sticks and bending and manipulating the kit to get weird and wonderful tones. I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually pick up the snare drum and shake it as part of a rhythm!!

So the debate; I won't mention any names, but I have studied with two of the top drum educators in England and only a few years ago, one of them charged ?30 or $55 back in 1998. I don't know if his rates are still the same, I doubt it. Anyway, regardless of the price, having seen his clinic on the Modern Drummer DVD with Vinnie and having watched his DVD, I have come to the conclusion that he isn't re-inventing the wheel here. He isn't letting us into some mystical secrets that we have never heard before. For example, he spends a good 10 minutes labouring the point about clicking 'the tiny notes' in between the beats and singing them. He then goes into length about how he mechanically uses his leg and heels to mark the notes between the beats when all he could have said was "SING AND THINK OF THE SUBDIVISIONS!!!"

I agree that he is a fantastic player and one that frankly is a breath of fresh air, compared to the Langs of this world (EASY TIGER!!! [img]wink.gif[/img] ) but let's not get carried away, this forum is (generally!!) inhabited by bright, perceptive and caring musicians that study, practice and are passionate obout drumming and there's really nothing that he says that hasn't been discussed on here at one point or another. I would think that you will find an equally proficiant teacher at half the price. Think about it, you're paying $50 for the lesson and $50 for the name!

If anyone is planning on studying with him, my advice would be to first study his entire DVD at length and work through it maticulously as there's absolutely no point is spending money on a lesson if he's going to cover points that have already been raised on his DVD. Granted it will be a one to one lesson and there's no substitute for him actually seeing the way you look and play, but I personally feel that like going for a job interview or an audition with a band, you want to be fully clued up on the material before you enter the room. Any questions raised can therfor be as a result of having watched his DVD and wanting to delve deeper into his approach.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 24, 2005 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 24, 2005 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>

All good points indeed [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

This is such a cool board [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Love you guys!!! *hugs all around*!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

A lot of good points. I can't really add to whether or not it's worth it, but here are a few data points. (I'm sure I've posted some of these comments before...)

I've only had two lessons with "name" players. Both in 2001, so feel free to adjust for "inflation" (of dollars, egos, popularity, etc. [img]wink.gif[/img] )

Carl Allen, $75 for one hour, one-on-one. Carl was very direct, almost blunt, with his feedback, but he was totally cool about it. (After all, I was paying him for his advice on how to improve.) I'm still getting value out of the things we talked about. Carl is very intelligent and very knowledgeable about drums and music, and he's got a gift for teaching. A great lesson from a great guy, and I recommend it very highly if you ever get the chance to take a lesson with him.

Virgil Donati, $150 for one hour, one-on-one, plus $50 for a 30-minute master class.

I'm a huge fan of Virgil's, and I've been very inspired to learn his "stuff," but let's just say teaching is not Virgil's strong suit. He was direct, which is cool, but I thought his attitude sucked, so I wasn't too happy about shelling out a buck-and-a-half to someone who was being a pain in the ass. That aside, although Virgil is also very intelligent and knowledgeable about drums and music, he wasn't able to evaluate my playing, nor able to make suggestions about how to improve. (So, being a good player doesn't necessarily make you a good teacher.) Basically, his answer to everything is to spend more time practicing, but could not offer suggestions about what to practice, how to practice, etc. At least SS, Weckl, and others give ideas for exercises, how to expand vocabulary, etc.

The masterclass wasn't much better. We all had practice pad and double pedal setups (which was very nice), but every exercise went the same: we started off slow, he pointed out those of us who were not playing it right, and then increased the tempo until he left us all in the dust (kind of cool to witness, but not a great learning opportunity).

I'm glad I did both, and it was a learning experience (and a much-needed kick in the ass), but I wouldn't take another lesson with him...not because it was a sour experience, but because I just don't think interacting with Virgil is the best way to learn from him. I learn much more by listening to him, and studying videos of him.

My personal opinion is that $100 is out-of-whack for Ward to be charging. I personally don't "get" him at all. His groove is not in "Gadd/Porcaro" territory, and the technique is not in "Virgil/Lang" territory, so I guess I just don't get what the big deal is.

Mangini only charges around $40 for his masterclasses, and I think he charges less than $100 for a one-hour one-on-one.

Sorry for the long rant. I really wanted to straighten out a few people at work today, but thought better of it and bit my tongue. So now I'm taking it out on HOD dammit!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

OK, new rule....decaf only for mja61 after 6 pm [img]wink.gif[/img]

I guess one thing to consider may be that the drum shop/store/host gets a cut of the lesson-which would be a good argument to inflate the price(for him).

I'd be interested in hearing more about the one-on-one lessons with name players...

Indeed teaching and playing are different abilities and having one doesnt mean you have the other. I've heard plenty of clinics from guys where they play their ass off but then start talking without really saying anything. It can be hard to describe something you play verbally.
What I have a problem with is guys that teach and don't recognize the fact that they can't. It takes communication skills and the ability to determine what specifically the student needs to do in order to get over that hurdle thats preventing them from getting to their musical goal.
I like teaching a lot and would like to do another video maybe. We'll see how well SSL does in Retail. Since I'm basically a no-name I imagine not well at first but knows.

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What I have a problem with is guys that teach and don't recognize the fact that they can't.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree totally. I think what gets overlooked is that guys who are charging in excess of $100 for a lesson sometimes forget that they have a responsibility to provide value for that money, just like any other paid professional. Sometimes, it seems to turn into a case of, "Hey, I'm famous drummer Mr. X and you should be happy that you can pay my fee just to hang out with me for an hour." If they can't meet the responsibility, then they shouldn't take the cash.

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I like teaching a lot and would like to do another video maybe. We'll see how well SSL does in Retail. Since I'm basically a no-name I imagine not well at first but knows.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Without sounding too gushy, you definitely have the teaching "gift," Steve, as evidenced in your lessons, videos, and written posts on this board. I hope you do another video. (I'm embarassed to say that I still need to get the first one. [img]redface.gif[/img] )

So, what's the deal with the videos? Are they going to be available on DVD? How do we get SSL and the Altered vids these days?

Steve hit the nail on the head when it comes to players and teachers... huge difference and some are both... BUT NOT MANY! A phenominal drummer who is also a phenominal teacher is rare...

What it comes down to is $100 is not that much for a one-on-one with a "superstar drummer"... what is the worst that can happen? You don't learn anything? Well then you still came away knowing something that you didn't know before... get it? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Despite what I pessimistically said before - TAKE THE LESSON! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Leonardface wrote: "So I think $100.00 is a bargain indeed to take an hour out of the life of one of the great drummers of our era."

Billy Ward is not a great drummer of our era. He's got a great groove and some good ideas about keeping time ("wiggle a lot," to quote his video), but that's about it. You don't seem to realize that MOST professional drummers have a great groove and have good ideas about keeping time.

His technique is ghastly--his double strokes on his video are sloppy, at best. And his drums, in my opinion, sound like a big bag of ass.

If you like his playing, however, then the $100 might be worth it. You'll be inspired and you'll get to hang out with one of your heros, and you can't really put a price on that.

Great post Dazz [what I was basically trying to say, only you did it betta' [img]wink.gif[/img] ]
...mja, AW. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

I will say again & in agreement w you guys that, regardless, I think that BW is indeed also a refreshing player w a nice pocket. Having said that...

Coleslaw: "Easy, tiger!" [img]wink.gif[/img] [Dazz-o] ...also see mja:

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OK, new rule....decaf only after 6 pm

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">lol [img]tongue.gif[/img] J/K

I've been trying this new "rule" lately, too, [after seeing all the carnage that ensues]... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Perhaps it would be cool if BW gave online [lessons like Virg, etc]....does he?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 25, 2005 02:21 PM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>

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Originally posted by jonthibault:
[QB]His technique is ghastly--his double strokes on his video are sloppy, at best. And his drums, in my opinion, sound like a big bag of ass.
QB]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Huuuaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa! LOL

Man, that was hilarious! Well said. I somewhat agree with you on the above points and I will sum up my views on Billy by stating this:

I respect him as an artist, though he often treads a very fine line. I often can not make up my mind as to if he is a genius or a flake... but I do like his "refreshing" approach and artistic merit. I enjoyed his DVD, and think I got all out of it that I could - in one sitting.

I really like Billy's playing. He's not note-perfect and he's not Mr. Technique but I don't see that as = no value. I've read his book and have his DVD and recommend them for different ways to look at drums and music in general than the average video. I think it's important to step back from the technique wars and see people who have let that go in favor of music. (I study technique plenty so maybe that's why I appreciate the different approach) I like Keith Carlock for the same reason.

To me though, no one is worth $100 an hour. Not Vinnie, not Virgil, nobody. There just aren't enough "secrets" to music or drumming to make it worth that kind of money. If you have basic hand technique that is solid, the rest is up to you. You'd be better off buying some CD's in a style of music you don't listen to or going to see an inspiring gig.

I think studying privately is very valuable if you can do it long term and on a regular basis; otherwise (again, to me) it's pretty much pointless.

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I just don't think interacting with Virgil is the best way to learn from him.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well said [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Funny how some will easily pluck down $100, $150 or more for a lesson with Virgil, SS, Weckl, etc, because they're your superhero drummers. And it's not about the lesson or what you get out of it; instead, it's all about the hang with your idol.

Clearly a few of you know so little about Billy Ward that it becomes an automatic response to announce that he charges too much since he's a "no-name" drummer. And it's obvious you have no idea of why he charges what he does; instead, you accuse him of overcharging because of his name. Can't have it both ways. Either he's a no-name drummer and, therefore, can't charge based on his name or ... well, I hope you get the idea.

And just because he's not your superhero doesn't mean he's any worse than the ones worshipped here. While I won't entertain a side-by-side comparison, to suggest Billy's in a lower league in regards to his groove or technique is absurd. Snobbishness at its finest.

Man, that is exactly how I see it.

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I think it's important to step back from the technique wars and see people who have let that go in favor of music

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">& those are 2 of the same reasons I like BW & KC, also...[& not that I don't think they have their own style & modicum of technique]
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2005 02:10 AM: Message edited by: fuseU1 ]</font>