Because we went over 100 and it's taking forever to load the first version of the topic
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Because we went over 100 and it's taking forever to load the first version of the topic
Okay. Hope this helps. Things have been slowing down lately.
Azziz stated that Sinclairs death wish prevented him from being promoted. I would disagree with that assesment.
Sinclair's career had halted because of the missing 24 hours at the Battle of the Line. We learn of this in the episode Sky Full of Stars.
Sinclair did have a death wish, there is no denying that. Garibaldi confronts him about it in Infection. Garibaldi theorizes that the death wish is due to survivors guilt because Sinclair survives the Battle fo the Line. Sinclair tells Garibaldi that he does not have an answer to his question and that he should. After that, we see Sinclair play the role of Chowderhead alot less frequently.
I do wish you people would stop talking about chowderheads. I'm on a diet and you're making me hungry.
along with "captain cupcake."
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Iz, I think you hit the nail on the head with the Shadows being the bigger "Chowderhead(s)" with respect to Sheridan's Za'ha'dum visit. I guess with the human minds being tinkered with, none of the human minions (including Anna) would have suggested Sheridan's affinity for nukes. She had to have known about it...it was the only "victory" in the Earth-Minbar war.</p>
What better way to deal with a chowderhead enemy than to send a chowderhead to negotiate? They could've taken out the whitestar ship and sent him back in one of their ships, if he was going to live. All they'd have to say was "Oops, those darn Drahk. Our appologies." </p>
One of the things Anna said on the trip there was they didn't like to be around "Vorlon" artifacts. Something on the ship made her jumpy, if I remember right. What I'd like to know is how come Sheridan didn't set off any alarms as well himself. As Lorien was to mention later, "You have a Vorlon in you". I would have thought the lights around him would have dimmed a bit as he past them.</p>
Yeah, I like that part about the Shadows being Chowderheads. </p>
LOL sorry but it is one of my favorite descriptive terms. (grins)
Not deliberately trying to change the subject, but I just read a comment by Lord Vefir at the old place.
"CAN you put a keeper on a TP? Maybe a TP could control the Keeper (through telepathy) thus nullifying it?"
Could a teep control a Keeper?
More on the Keepers, does anyone have a theory as to why captin Jack wuld accept a Keeper? It is stated in the first Legion of Fire book that the person who is to wear a keeper has to voluntarily accept it. I can htink of no reason why Captin Jack would accept a Keeper.
My guess is that a teep could have a keeper. The Keeper communicates with its host and its originator via telepathy. I can't think of a reason why a telepath would be able to block that. Especially since the Keeper bonds itself with the host by connecting with the hosts nervous system. If a teep host tried to block the telepathy of the keeper, 10-1 it would cause the teep extreem pain.
I didn't recall from the first book that a Keeper had to be voluntarily accepted. My memory span is only ten minutes. But did the Regent accept his Keeper voluntarily, and if so why did he think he was dreaming when he woke up in the middle of the night and saw the Keeper on his shoulder? Seemed to me it scared the bejesus out of him, but maybe he'd "forgotten" that he had the thing and it startled him. Hmmmm....
A teep with a Keeper might be able to communicate with the entire Drakh network, eh?
It seemed to me that Capt Jack was very much against his keeper and would not have accepted it voluntarily. I always thought it had been put on him quite against his will.
Do we know that the keepers communicated telepathically? - from the tv show?
I thought, wrongly it appears, that they hooked into the nervous system and could read the brain impulses that way.
What did the keeper who was on Captain Jack intend- was it to have Captain Jack kill Number One or to kill her itself somehow? or to attach to her in order to control her?
BMAT,
We know that the Keepers are constantly in contact with the Drahk that spawned them, therefore logic would dictate Telepathy.
I believe Capt. Jack was to either kill or spy on Number 1 (Don't remember which, missed that episode this time around).
I think the keepers are not re-usable. I believe they bond with you and as long as you live they are with you, and once they are not with you they die. And doesn't the regent die once his keeper leaves him.
We also know that they communicate telepathicly from the books. Fron the show, Franklin makes some observations about how the keeper works and, I believe, that it is telepathic. I could be wrong on the last part.
I do think there is enough evidence from the show that we could deduce that the keeper communicates using telepathy. Londo tells G"kar that he has to kill him before the keeper awakes and alerts the Drahk to Sheridan and Delenn's escape. The only way the keeper could alert the Drahk as soon as it awakened is if it was telepathic.
Been awhile since I saw ITB, but wasn't there an indication that Londo could put the Keeper to sleep by drinking huge quantities of alcohol? Isn't that basically why he was loaded, to knock out the Keeper? That's what I recall, but maybe I really missed something there.
Keepers can't hold there liquor.
Teeps could most likly block the telepathy. They are trained for that, the higher the teep, the less effective the keeper would be.
Captain Jack was probably drunk, clueless or blackmailed. Blackmail seems to be the method of choice for the Drakh.
Oh yes! forgot about the contact with the Drakh- thanks for the reminder.
We still don't know, from the TV show, that the keepers were telepathic with respect to their host- right? It could be a link directly to the brain impulses.
Captain Jack's keeper scooted around after it left him. It was killed while off of him.
Even after it left him Captain Jack was alive, although a piece of the Keeper remained (he said a piece always remains) and the Keeper regenerated.
The Centauri Regent/Minister did die when his Keeper left him, so I wonder about the seeming inconsistency. Any thoughts on that anyone?
Londo's main fear....yes- death could be it, but my first guess would have been destruction of the Centauri civilization.
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Captain Jack seemed to know a lot about them. And the only time he was able to be on his own he grabbed a thermal grenade and headed for the tubes, convinced that this was his last individual act. You could see the regenerating keeper just before the grenade went off.</p>
My guess is that the Drakh threatened his daughter somehow, the only thing he lived for (according to what he told Franklin and Marcus). And, I'm pretty sure he was setup to kill No. 1, not to just spy on her. He didn't seem to be able to resist the PPG coming up and pointing in her direction.</p>
I'm not so sure they're telepathic after they've left their mother-host. I remember reading a book where Londo's keeper was discussed, and how the mother-host kept reassuring the keeper that things would be alright. I just don't remember if there was any communcation afterwards. Londo had to keep the thing drunk so he could allow G'Kar to kill him. With the ability to control it's host, the keeper could probably bail Londo out of any fight. I think it was Captain Jack's keeper that was really firing the PPG, as his hand was shaking the whole time.</p>
That's how I saw it, anyway. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Now that you mention it, I too remember that the keepers had to be a voluntary thing.
The regent most likely was given the same threat as LOndo or maybe he just didn't have the backbone to stand up to them, he was not an especially confident man.
I, too, don't recall anything being alluded to that Capt. Jack could have been forced with to accept his keeper
Wizz
I'd have thought the Keepers would be telepathic with the Drakhs- that the Drakhs would be able to issue it instructions and to receive information from it. Yes?
ps- thanks- I'd forgotten the ppg being pulled on Number One. So the keeper could actually control either the impulses going to the muscles or the part of the brain issuing the impulses...and that would be a physical control rather than telepathic? I'm not sure we have the answers to that...?
I remember Londo saying that he did what the keeper wanted him to do - to satisfy it...it was in the episode that showed the death and Vir coming out and seeing the bodies. I don't know if I have that right-it was as if Londo actually had some choice about whether to obey the Keeper. Any insight or corrections, anyone? Perhaps he had a choice but the Keeper would report to the Drakhs who would then carry out their threat against Centauri Prime- which then goes back to my idea that Londo's greatest fear was the destruction of the Centauri.
Wait a sec, the episode where Londo said he did what the Keeper wanted, then he got it drunk, that was where he was talking to the future Sheridan and Delenn and just before he helped them get away- so that makes it the Babylon Squared episode maybe?
Bmat,
That would be War Without End Episodes or In the Beginning Movie
Agreeing mainly with Ran. If the Keeper is hooked into the host's nervous system it already knows what the host is thinking, unless it is knocked out by the alcohol's effect on the hosts system.
Let's see- we're also discussing a telepath with a keeper, if the the above is so then a telepath would be no better off than anyone else. If the Keeper is telepathic with respect to the Drakh, however, in theory the telepath could block the signals of the Keeper to the Drakh, but on the other hand, the Keeper would know, since it can read anything going on in the brain. So that leaves the Keeper knowing that the telepath intends to block telepathic signals to the Drakh. The telepath would never be able to sleep, because as soon as he stopped blocking, the Keeper would get the message out. So, I'm back to the telepath with a Keeper not being any better off than a non-telepath.
If I am reading the books correctly, then the Keeper is telepathic. In the third book, the Keeper in the urn communicates with David long before David turns 16.
Touche Crash, I knew there was a reason I believed it to be telepathic that was concrete evidence. I just didn't recall that specific incidence.
Gotta side with the Prof on this one.
Yeah...I have to agree that if the books say it and if the books are indeed the intention of the Maker then we have to go along with that. There's something though that rubs me the wrong way about coming to conclusions outside of the tv show or movies. Even if it is in a book, it doesn't seem right that the tv show should be interpreted outside of what happened in the show. It's like tasting a piece of cake that has no nuts in it and saying that it has nuts in it because the recipe says it should have nuts in it. In actuality the only true experience one has of the cake is that it has NO nuts.
Bmat,
We're not saying (at Least I'm not) that once the keeper takes possesion of you that it controls you telepathically, I happen to agree with you on the nervous system/brain thing. But, if it communicates with the Drahk it was spawned from it, after it leaves him, then the keeper must be telepathic. We do know this from the TV show, so therefore you did have nuts in your cake, IMHO. Maybe they were walnuts and you expected almonds, but nonetheless they are nuts, I think.
[This message has been edited by sindatur (edited January 30, 2001).]
The keeper is telepathically connected to it's drakh. That much is clear. I don't know that it can telepathically read the mind of it's host. If it could than Londo would have been toast. When Londo had the keeper drunk he would write about what was going on and I don't think Londo could completely not think about that. Or not think about getting the keeper drunk. Etc...
The keeper's main power while in a host is the infliction of pain. Pure and simple.
A bit of a sidebar. I am pretty much with Bmat about the books. Maybe with a noteworthy exception or two, I don't consider what happens in anything other than the TV show/TV movies, either on screen off screen, to have really happened. That goes for Star Trek, Star Wars, et al. Your opinion may vary, but that's mine.
Actually Ran and Bmat,
JMS has said that To Dream in the City of Sorrows and the Trilogies are Canon. The other novels do have inconsistencies which need to be disregarded, but not the Trilogies and TDItCS.
While not said in the series, the first book in the Legion of Fire series says that the keeper bonds with a Drahk first, and through that connection, to the entire Drahk collective. It is through that telepathic bond, shared by all the Drahk, that the Keeper is able to warn the Drahk if its host does something it is not suppose to do.
How does it work? In Londo's case, he gets drunk so that he can free Sheridan, Delenn, and David. Then, while drunk, he instructs G"Kar to kill him because if he does not, when the Keeper awakens he will notify the Drahk collective of Sheridan and Delenn's escape. If the Keeper was not telepathic it 1) wouldn't know that Londo had freed Sheridan, Delenn, and David. It was out cold when Londo did that so it could not see him do it. The only way it could know is that it is able to read Londo's mind. 2) it could not notify the Drahk collective. The Keeper does not have a mouth, its only means of communiation has to be through telepathy.
Back to the teeps. The Drahk use the Keeper to punish Londo many, many times. Through the connections to Londo's nervous system, the Keeper is able to send very nasty and painful impulses through Londo. If a teep is capable of preventing the Keeper from sending a message, the Keeper could use this same method of punishment to paralyze the teep and then send the message. I have a feeling that through long term exposure, most telepaths would learn not to block the Keeper because the punishment would be great. It might be a trickier relationship, but I think the end result would be the same.
The episode was War Without End part II it is also covered in the third book of the Legion of Fire trilogy
Well, the Technomage Trilogy first book is supposed to be released in about 4 weeks, I can't wait. The trilogies so far have been pretty awesome. I re-reading the Psicorps Trilogy now. The part the Technomages played in the Centauri Prime Trilogy plus Galen in Crusade have made me really anxious for this trilogy.
Imagine a whole trilogy based upon the Technomages. We will finally get answers to the questions we've been asking ourselves about them since the very first Season of B5 when we got a slight glimpse of them.
Can you tell I'm excited.
I didn't get the impression that the Keeper was telepathic, just that it knew what its host knew and that it could force its host to do what it wanted. The keeper was already hooked into Londo's nervous system, so it had no need to be telepathic to know what Londo had done. It already had access to his brain. After awaking from its bender, the keeper could have forced Londo to tell the Drakh about the escape. No need to send any telepathic messages.
Oh yes! I knew there was something else I wanted to reply about to Ran's post earlier.
Yes the fact that the Keepers were telepathic does follow from the TV show in my opinion- a telepathic link of some kind with the Drakh.
Pah!!! Shame on JMS saying that we must use information not in the shows but in the books only. For one thing maybe some people choose to not read the books, wanting to keep the tv show and movie experience without nuts.
(*grin*)
Sci Fi Channel courting Straczynski
by The Master, Wednesday, January 24, 2001
Scifi.com has confirmed that the Sci Fi Channel has opened discussions with Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski and producer Douglas Netter about possible future TV projects.
Specifics about the nature of the projects were not provided, but the report indicates they may include made-for-television movies or a new series.
Sci Fi has previously said it is happy with the performance of its widescreen Babylon 5 reruns. Straczynski is also the creative force behind City of Dreams, an original audio drama anthology series for Scifi.com's Seeing Ear Theatre.
I have no problem with the books as a source of information. There is no way that JMS could answer all the questions people have about the various characters, governments, and workings of all the different parts of the B5 universe in a five year story arc. There is simply too much there.
While I am annoyed with JMS when he just forgets a character (Sinclair's activities after season 1 for the most part is ignored. Ivanova in season 5) I am not annoyed that he did not spend a ton of time explaining exactly how a Keeper works. The explination would have been borning, ie the Drahk telling Londo how it worked, and that conve5rsatin is not likely to happen. Why would the Drahk tell Londo how the Keeper worked? It would have given him too much information.
That said, I do think it is relativly easy to infer that the Drahk and Keeper are telepathic. How else would the Drahk communicate wiht the Keeper? Someone had to tell Captin Jack to kill number one and make sure that he did. Since there were no Drahk nearby, the keeper had to be able to telepathicly communicate with the Drahk so that they knew what Captin Jack was doing.
The scenes with the Regent and Londo after the regent has a Keeper also indicate a telepathic relationship. There are times that the Regent makes comments out of the blue that make no sense in the context of the conversation with Londo. Who is he responding to? The Drahk. How is that possible, since we do not hear or see the Drahk in the room? Through telepathy.
The extent to which the Keeper is telepathic and the Drahk are telepathic is left in question in the TV show. But everything points to telepathy. The books tell us that the Drahk are highly evoloved telepaths, it is how they communicate with one another even over great distances. The Drahk who is responsible for Londo is able to go into Londo's mind once the Keeper is attached to him, even learning Londo's sexual fantasies. The fact that the Drahk does not know what Londo is up to, ie writing the diary, planning to free Sheridan and Delenn ect..., indicates that the Drahk is not in constant contact with Londo's mind so that it does not know Londo's every move or thought. But if it wants to go looking for info, it can. With something as complex as the mind, it has to know where to look so Londo has ways to hide info from the Drahk.
The books add to the info we already have, which is necessary. Heck, there is 19 years between Objects at Rest and Sleeping in the Light. Within those 19 years there was a telepath war, the Drahk plague (Crusade was meant to deal with this as we all know), and who knows what else. Even with Crusade, we probably would not know alot about what Franklin was up to on Earth during that 5 years. What was Gariablaid up to? What was the Alliance dealing with? It had to be more then just the plague.
The only way to deal with all of that was by writing the books.
Thanks PC, that makes a lot of sense, I may have to rethink my feelings on that.
I would think that a non-telepathic link between Keeper and host would be possible by direct neural connection. Do the books not say what the link is?
It's still fun to try to deduce facts based on the show only, but I guess for those who want to go into detail on events and specific questions perhaps the books are a reasonable source.
The book does not go into detail in that area. (shrugs)
I agree, it is fun to figure things out from the show. For the most part, I think JMS did a good job of leaving us answers, sometimes it requires a bit more piecing together but that leads to cool discussions.
I do tend to find that because there are some areas JMS did such a good job with that when I find a plot hole or something is just dropped it annoys me more then it would if it were another show. I just expect more out of JMS and B5 then I do other shows. So the plot holes drive me batty.
I tend not to be as worried about things like how the Keepers work, there is not enough time to really get into that in the series. And I do think that there are hints to that in the series.
I tend to be more worried about things like Sheridan going to Mars when he is planning the final assualt on Earth.
Someone explain the logic of this again? Sheridan loves his Dad, ok I can buy that, so he wants to save him, again I can buy that. Instead of telling Garibaldi that he can't risk going to Mars and being caught so he is sending, oh say Marcus, he goes to Mars and is caught.
I find this more then a bit problmatice, more so with how Sheridan is written then with the characters motivations. I would have been much more content with Sheridan being captured on the way to a meeting with the Resistance. The resistence wnats a face to face meeting with him to insure that he will free Mars after the war is over. There is a spy in the resistence who reports this to EF security, or EF manages to intercept the message, so EF knows of the meeting. On the way to the meeting, Sheridan is nabbed.
To me, that is much more plausible then Sheridan leaving the war effort to save his Dad. I understand the motivation but I can't see any leader being willing to risk the entire war effort for the sake of one person. Furthermore, I cannot believe that the captian of the Agamemnon went along with this. Granted, soldiers are suppose to take orders and act on them, but this one is a bit out there. The possibility of Sheridan being captured is great, especially with the wonderful disguise he wore down to the colony .
ARRRGGHHHH I cannot get past the fact that there was a better way to get Sheridan captured and to have Garibaldi honk off the Alliance then what was used.
Proving that you can't keep a good chowderhead down:
Bruce "I'm on the Loose" Boxleitner says he's keen on TRON 2.0
"Former Babylon 5 star Bruce Boxleitner said he would be keen to return to the film that first made his name, when Tron 2.0 goes before the cameras.
Director Steven Lisberger is working on the sequel, set several years after events in the original, glowing-light-fantastic Disney film, and Bruce told a reporter he would like to appear in the follow-up. "Steven is doing a script. I hope he remembers his old buddies," he said. "I could be old Tron! I don't know. I read the premise of the plot, and it doesn't even involve the old cast. ... Personally, I think they should get a guy that looks like Bill Gates."