Crusade

Discussion of Crusade episodes

I spent the first ten minutes going "Where is Galen. I want Galen"(grins)

Galen was by far my favorite character in Crusdaes and I was glad to see him again last night. He had some of the best lines "Do not anger a techno mage when he is saving your life, again." made me chuckle. so did his comments when his probe was being carved open by the ship.

Max reminded me of why I liked his character so much. He is a pain in the butt but one who does not try and pretend to do everything for nobel causes. Much more practicle then the others.

Gideon was never a character that I fully embraced. I think some of that is because he can be so overly righteous. (shrugs)

It is going to be interesting seeing these in the order JMS wanted to air them in. I know that the first episode aired by TNT was full of back story and drov eme batty. This one contained enough to remind people what had happened (or let new viewers know what had happened) without being boring. Also a nice introduction to the characters.

I thought Racing the Night was a much more powerful intro. episode. Worked much better for me than the one TNT made JMS shoot as the first episode (War Zone, I think it was).

Galen was great, Max was great, but Dureena has always been my favorite and Galen second. I think the story will flow much better iun JMS's vision of how they shoulda been shown.

Absom, actually seeing some of JMS's comments, it doesn't appear that he believes the cast would be impossible to re-assemble. I wanna know about the Acopolypse box, I think that's my most irritating dangling thread from the series.

I think the problem with Crusade is that TNT has the right to air the series and was asking for way too much money to buy the series. That might have changed by now, intiially SFC was looking to buy it right after TNT and JMS parted ways. It maybe that it has been long enough that SFC can now buy the series.

(crosses her fingers)

I really liked this series, the episodes I saw. My only big complaint was Gideon's relationship with Lochley. I'm sorry but that was soooo contrived

Always liked Galen, myself. I wonder if the ScFi PTB will decide this series has merit. I know, they could never get the cast back together again. Just wishful thinking on my part.

(This post contains a very minor spoiler, with no plot relavance whatsoever)

If they were to bring back Crusade, I have one request. Bring back the original uniforms.
TNT didn't like the original uniforms and made JMS change them. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/eek.gif The new ones were horrid, although the way JMS incorporated them into the show had me ROTFLMAO. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Yes!! That Apocalypse box. Talk about cliff hangers. It's like waking up suddenly from a bad dream and wanting to know how it would come out in the end.

The uniforms reminded me of the USSR. What were you referring to about JMS's interpretation of them, Queen GOP?

HEY ERY! Are you watrching this or are you too engrossed in B5. LOL

Nommy I asked Ery if she was watching and she said no.

The Apocolpyse box is interesting. Wish we could have learned more about it. I just don't trust sentient boxs....

Last nights episode was interesting. One of the things I have always loved about B5 is that JMS tosses out these fascinating philisophical discussions. Was it worth all that the crew risked in order to save the entire record of one races artistic endeavors?

I do find the order of the episodes interesting in terms of what htey reveal about the characters. Up until the very end of last nights episode, I do not believe that people would have known that Matheson was a telepath. I do not remember this being mentioned in the first episode or any where in this last episode. I have tried to see if there is anything on his uniform that inidcates that he is a telepath but I have not seen anything that I can identify as a marker. (shrugs)

The twist dealing with Durenna's past is a very interesting one. it must be really hard for her to trust anyone given the fact that her family sold her into slavery.

So far so good. Hopefully tonight we get to see Galen (grins)

Matheson is a telepath and (supposedly) everyone knows it. And, as this episode shows, he's in conflict with it already. It would appear that information gathered via telepathy is regarded like phone conversations are today...if you overhear a conversation (like during testing of phone circuits) you should not linger, and should not divulge the contents without consent of the originating party (as I remember the rules).
I didn't notice any insignia, either; perhaps the Psi Corps is really dead (just not forgotten).

Wow! The Memory of War has more tie in's to the Technomage book than Well of Forever I think http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

When Galen threw his staff at the machine my jaw dropped.

Elric gave him that and he was bonded to it. Of course Dureena retrieved it for him, but wow. What a lose that would be for him! And how very much he owes Dureena now. It would have been nice to see more eps to see how he pays her back.

Ah! The apocalypse box now tells Gideon not to trust Galen. Who *should* he trust?

LOL, Absom it's Who do you trust I think that is the last question in the voiceover at the beginning *grin*

Absom, it might not have aired yet, but in one of the episodes, two tailors are sent out to redesign the uniforms. They design these awful uniforms, that the crew wears for the remaining episodes.

TNT didn't like the original uniforms, decided to change them. JMS was not very heppy about it, so he wrote the change into one of the episodes.

I have to agree with AsIs, especially after reading the new technomage novel. The first time I saw this episode, the staff was a neat prop, nothing special. Now, for him to sacrifice it the way he did, had a much stronger effect. He was giving up a lot.
And, yeah...Dureena has collected quite a few bonus points with her recovery of the staff. He made the extra effort to touch her hand when he received it from her. No telling what that touch will turn out to be.

Maybe I'm reading too much into that...

OK, first things first. I love the beginning of Crusade in this original order. It is amazing and engrossing and makes you think to integrate the new plot ideas, but doesn't leave enough unexplained to be confusing. The executives at TNT are and shall always be half wits for messing around with JMS's intended introduction to the show.

Next, I remember that Matheson's black uniform (the one we will see later but in the original airing were seen first)had a psi corps symbol on one shoulder. The lines that made up the Psi were narrow, so the symbol was not anywhere near as obvious as the copper/bronze pins, but it was there. I haven't looked carefully enough to be sure about an insignia on the grey bellhop uniform.

Finally, I have a technomage question. Galen says he was asked to leave the order. He wasn't really expelled though, was he? Doesn't that mean getting stripped of your tech and dying if you have had it for more than a very short while? Do we know anything about a secondary level expulsion that doesn't include being flayed?

Just wondering if anyone else noticed.

Polly

My comment about Matheson was more that the audience would not have known he was a teep up until that point.

Galen rocks. seriously, he rocks. It really is that simple. Almost as cool as Sinclair, almost but not quite. (grins)

PollyMath good question. I have no clue on that. Obviously he was not flayed so we know that he was not really tossed from the group. I am assuming everyone has seen Crusdaes before so I hope this is not a spoiler. There is an episode with another mage, Arwyn, were it is clear that Arwyn left the Mages when they left known space and he was not flayed.

I get the feeling that there is a differnece between being tossed out because you do not agree with the Circle's decisions and violating the Code of the Mages and being flayed. I would hope that this is something dealt with in the next novel.

Ah yes. I had forgotten about the tailors. This is sooo much better with the episodes in the correct progression. That's probably what caused me to forget JMS's uniform correction.

I'm actually enjoying it much more than I did the first time around. It was confusing and some things never did make sense.

Timing is everything, Prof. Tonights episode was with Alwynn. Played by Peter Woodwards father, too. I missed the credit and can't remember his first name (Michael?).
I noticed what might be a small inconsistancy, that being when Alwynn referred to Galen's father dying. In the novel, though, both of Galens parents (both technogages as well) died at the same time. Just seemed odd that Alwynn would mention just his father, when both parents passed on.
However, I had to grin at the elder Woodward mentioning that a father always wants his son to surpass him. Sneaking a bit of real life in there I suppose.
You remember Ta'lon? You recognize him as Captian Daniels? Without the Narn makeup, only thing that gave it away was the voice.
And, I have to say, the uniforms in this episode are the better ones. Can't sucessfully mess with the great makers concepts. TNT must have that name for a reason...they blew it. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif

Ya know, Prof...I have to violently agree with you. Unless Marcus is involved, why bother with a movie about the rangers. However, maybe the better thing to do is a Ranger movie, show that it's a good thing to continue the Babylon 5 story, work out the kinks, then do a seriously good movie on the technomages. Ya know, do a rough draft, then produce a polished product. And, I hope when they do that movie, Edward Woodward plays Alwynn again.

The movie is suppose to be the pilot for a new series. (grins)

Although I have to admit I find the Techno Mages much more interesting then the Rangers.

A Techno Mage series would be tough, since they are mainly loners. Could get boring I guess...

Galen's father was his primary instructor in the ways of the Mages. It could be that since the discussion was focused on Elric, Galen's teacher after his father died, Alwyn choose to mention Galen's other teacher. (shrugs)

More likely that at that time Galen's entire family unit had not been discussed and his Mother was not added into the picture until the books.

This was a fun episode. It was interesting to see how uncomfortable Galen was discussing somethings with Alwyn with Gideon in the room. Galen's eyes kept flickering over to Gideon. Yet when Gideon was not in the room, Galen was perfectly composed, as I pictured him in the book.

I also noticed that Galen seemed more willing to show some emotion, all be it very little, in front of the crew of the Excalibur but none really in front of Alwyn. Control amongst Mages is so drilled into them...

I loved the commentary about the Holo Demons, it made me laugh very loudly. Good stuff. I also liked that there were times you could see images that appeared on Galen's eyes, this ties in nicely to the books description of how the Mages communicate with Probes and the like.

A fun episode that gives us a bit more insite into Galen's character. Most excellent.

Screw a Ranger series, can't we have a Techno Mage series?

I posted this at CZ tonight. If anyone is interested, and has made it in to Hostboard, I'll repeat it.

Go to http://babylon5.warnerbros.com/cmp/

Click on : "message boards". Read the topic: "Finally some good news for Crusade"

I really, really enjoyed tonight's episode after having read the 1st Technomage book. Well, Iz (or was it Wizz?) I truly believe those first 140 useless pages were great for me and my understanding of the Technomages and my enjoyment of these Galen episodes in Crusade. And the answers to everyone's questions were great. What are Gideon and Matheson's questions, and their answers? And will we see them find them? What was Galen's question and answer, and will we see him find it? Does it have something to do with the spell?

Minor spoiler for first time Crusade Viewers and those who haven't read the First Technomage novel.
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It's incredible how much he loved Isabelle so much in such a short period of time. Really gives you a glimpse into the strength of Galen's Passion. Technomage's seem to have a similar extremely strong connection as Teeps have when they become "One with each other"

It never made sense to me when/how Galen worked his way back into good graces with Gideon. I am looking forward to seeing that played out properly. Is he in tomorrow's episode? (The one that was originally aired last with the Drahk return?) I am also looking forward to "The Path of Sorrows" on Monday which is the one episode I missed the first run through which I believe is also a Galen episode.

What was the Part of Isabelle that Galen released at the Well? Was it the knowledge he inherited from her or did he somehow reclaim the article that Her mother/teacher (Burell?) made to serve as her "familiar"? (an amulet?)

Do I need to re-read the Technomage opening book again to get an answer to this question? I've only had the opportunity to read it the one time.

[This message has been edited by sindatur (edited April 18, 2001).]

Wizzard points to Iznardy with regards to the first point
I'll have to say, though that Iznardy has a combination of a liability and an asset. He mentioned that he's had the opportunity to take a writing class, (in the novel topic, I think) so he has some objectivity behind his eyeballs. The pace of the book sure picked up in the second half.
I think what he carried in the amulet was a container of some of her ashes. The second story, though, was a little more thought provoking. And, when I heard a door had been opened, I was first thinking they'd spaced Mr. Jones. He has the same arrogance as Bester, just not the confidence.

This was a great episode. I remeber thinking that when I first saw it as well.

The last few paragraphs contain info from the book. I will add spoiler space at the end of the post as well so you can read the next post without seeing the end of this post.

There are two distinct plotlines, the Mr. Jones story and Galen's. There is some intersting info about the new Telepath regulations in this ep. I was left wondering where the new Committee on Metasensory Regulation was located. Mr. Jones cannot have come from Earth and Mars is independent now so a telepath from Mars should not have to follow those regs. Not sure that it is an importnat question but one that nagged at me throughout the episode.

I was impressed with the lengths that Gideon went to to help Matheson. Gideon is someone who believes in trust and loyalty. Once you are on his good side, he will go tot he wall for you. Wonder how Galen's stunt this week will influence Gideon's willingness to help Galen in the future.

Glaen is very impressive in this episode. The idea of the Well of Forever is impressive in its own right but the role it played in this episode was amazing.

Galen's relationship with Isabelle had to be very special for him to go to the lengths that he did. He was willing to sacrifice his relationship with Gideon and the crew of the Excalibur to fufuill his promise. And I wondered why his question would be "Why? I was intrigued that we never learned the answer to his question, only that he has to ponder the answer.

Max must have flipped out when he lost all his data. Dureena was intersting in this ep. More in the background yet right there in the middle of it all. She had some amazing scenes with Galen.

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I remember watching this ep initially and thinking that the two had studied together for years, when in reality it had been only 2 or 3 weeks.

My only question about what took place on the Well was where did the amulet come from, Isabelle's amulet was destroyed when Burell's place of power was destroyed. (shrugs) The ashes were Isabelle's, handed to Galen by Carven after Isabelle had been cremated.
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Last night's episode Each NIght I Dream of Home with the Drahk (originally shown as the final episode) presented us with another of JMS's classic moral dilemmas.

As the plumber (sorry can't remember his name) I can understand him doing it. If my soulmate was on Earth with the plague and I wasn't, I would easily make the choice he did. Better to live 5 years with your other half, than to live those years without your love and watch them die. Also, knowing that your sacrifice, could, possibly aid in finding the cure for the Human race.

On the other hand, Dr. Franklin's dilemma would be a tough one. A doctor's first priority is to cause no harm or to not make a patient worse. But he did have a volunteer, that probably would've continued trying to find a way to get back to Earth and if Dr. Franklin and the Government didn't help him, then they wouldn't have been able to gain the information of a newly infected person, thereby giving them another tool to try and win against the Virus.

I liked it. Strange as it may seem, if you're attached to someone that much, there's no other choice. Besides, if he'd waited and the cure was found (which it was), there's no way to determine that they'd still be that interested in each other. I know that there are cases where people have waited for ages and still get together, but it's rare. Most just move their separate ways.

I also caught Franklin's expression when discovering how the "virus" worked, "...like a zip file..." The folks at WinZip must be pretty pleased that their product is a household term, if not in fact still used.

Then, there's the senator. Very inflated ego, bailing out when it was suggested that he get to a life pod as he was one of the few non-infected EA senators left. Away he went...as if his being a sentator meant anything if the plague wasn't cured. :P

ya know last nights ep leaves me with some questions. If the plague is similar to the nano tech virus that was created by a Techno Mage then maybe the cure is in the hand of the Mages.....

Also, how many humans are living off of earth? OK 10 billion will die if a cure is not found and that is beyond bad. The show keeps leaving us with this impression that it is the end of humanity if a cure is not found. How many humans live on Mars? IO? Proxima 3? other colonies? B5, Minbar ect....

Granted Humanity would no longer be a dominant race if the plague is not cured but humanity would still survive.As such, the survival of Earth's few Senators who were off world is very important. They are the only ones who can speak for Earth if something happens. Kind of like a government in exile.

Sure, the Doc said that to get him out of her hair and not because she was really worried about him but there is a certain logic to it.

By the way, do we ever see the Doc in a uniform?

I can't begin to describe how much more I am enjoying the series with the proper beginning!! I really was amazed how much more logical it was and how many fewer "huh? Did I nod off?" there were for me with the opening ep! And so disappointed (again) with Dureena's new hairdo (ala TNT mandates) halfway through the series.

I had been wondering the same two questions, PC--off-world humans and where's the Doc's uniform?

My fashion vote also goes for the JMS uniforms, though I still think they remind me of current RCMP/bellhop uniforms. :-)

My 2-cents! Just so glad to see it back--especially this way!

Re: The Senator. I realize he would be part of the government "in exile" so to speak. Government of what? If there's a cure, his being one of the uninfected ones is of little significance. If he's around but all of earth's inhabitants are gone, there's not much but a scattered group looking for a new home. This particular senator, I believe, wouldn't have contributed much in the way of rebuilding as he would have worked to keep his position of importance intact.

Path of Sorrows. This one is one of my favorites. Too bad the rest of the cast didn't have time with the alien, as it would have brought out a lot of their character as well. Having read the first of the technomage trilogies, this tied in well for me with Isabel's story. I'm also wondering if Galen's ulterior motive for joining the Excalibur crew is to find those three mages responsible for her passing. His bitterness isn't soothed at all with the message from out there; he's a mage on a mission. It'd sure be nice to see this story continued; hopfully SciFi will think so too.
Although not stated so exactly, Lyta was supposed to be the renegade that Matheson was injecting. She already was a "doomsday" device, waiting to be set off; with all the head Psi Corps honchos showing up there, what a perfect way for Lyta to strike back at the corps. I think it would've been worth the weeks pay for one day's work, just to have her in this episode. It's not like she'd be able to continue in the practice of getting paid too much for her role. But, that's how things are done in Hollywood. Guess it's better not to set a trend and cause friction and high budget overruns.
Now, how are we supposed to not be suspicious of the Earth Force officer questioning Giddeon on what he saw? For crying out loud, that was a cutting beam from that strange ship. You would get fragments showing that during the investigation, such as it were. Or, Earth was working with the Shadows long before the Shadows had returned to Za'ha'dum. Which means the Shadows were present during Santiago's regime, too. Hard to say how far back it goes.
Anyway, my 2 cents worth...

Wow Path of Sorrows. This was the one episode that I missed when it showed on TNT originally. Very powerful episode for me and pretty important one for me to have missed. We see Gideon get the Apocalypse box, we see Galen rescuing Gideon, we see the base on Syria Planum being blown up and we see Galen's last moments with Isabelle. What a treat this was to see.

I'm pretty sure the third one was Tilar. As far as Galen was concerned, Kell was questionable, but Tilar, Elizar and Razeel were the ones to betray them.
As for grudges, could be he's no longer going after those three. As Alwyn didn't bring it up, maybe it's something that's no longer necessary to bring up. I just figured that in the short time that's passed from when Isabel died and the start of Crusade, that issue wouldn't have been resolved yet. Besides, the Drakh having access to mages would level the playing field a bit.

Wiz, It has been around 8 years since Isabelle died. The events of Book One of the Technomage Trilogy takes place at the latest at the beginning of Season 2 of B5. The events at the end of Book one are mentioned by Elric in the Technomage Ep in Season 2.

Azziz is right about the time line. Crusades takes place 5 years after the end of the series. Galen and the Mages leave known space in the first months of Season 2. So that is 3 years to the end of the series then five years to the plague = 8 years

This is one of the reasons I find the idea of Gideon beng the Captin of anything more then a bit improbable. If he was an Ensign on the Cerabus (ie fresh out of the Academy judging by the ring on his finger) it would take alot longer then 8 years for him to have been promoted up the ranks. Even granting that many snior officers retired or were charged with war crimes after Earth's civil war, it strikes me as improbable that he would hold the rank of Captian.

Wizz, someone has to coordinate with the Alliance and other worlds to find a cure for the plague. While Sheridan is doing that, there needs to be someone representing Earth from Earth, whichis where the off world Senators come in. Its the same idea as a government in exile during a war. The top brass get out of the country and then set up shop in a friendly country to speak for their people.

Last nights ep was interesting. Gideon's explination to his superior falls on knowing ears. Remember that there were a decent number of military and Psi Corp personal who knew about the Shadows and were working with them. Mainly they were located in the top brass. For the most part, they wanted to cover up the presence of the Shadows and were doing their damndest to alter Gideon's story. Not surprising really.

What I found impressive is that Gideon was an ensign on the Cerebus. This means he was promoted pretty quickly, 9 years from Ensign to Captian? ummm me thinks something funky happened. Maybe mass retirment after the Civil War ended. Even that sounds abit fishy.

I really liked the Isabelle and Galen scenes. i had forgotten that we had seen that. As to if Galen found them, a coupe of episodes back Galen says he does not hold grudges, Gideon questions him onthat and he says the only people that he held grudges against were dead. To me that means that Elizar and Razeel were dead. During the scene with Isablle, he did not know why Kell had done what he did, so I am guessing that Kell is removed from the list of three who betrayed them. Unless he was meaning Tilar...

OK the scene which was suppose to include Lyta makes more sense now. Lyta would have been setting up the resistences largest strike and in sacrificing herself would have really hurt the Corp. Too bad the scene was soo long and descriptive, now JMS cannot say that it was Lyta, even though that is who he had wanted.

A good episode, lots of character development.

Minor nit...call it 6 years, not eight. They took off for two years at least, the assumption being that the mages weren't heading back home until after the Shadows were dealt with. 25% less time to search for the trio in question. On the other hand, he was there with Vir and the cloistered mages when they wiped out the planet killer manufacturing facility. I doubt that Galen would have been much at ease if his nemisis were still around

The Mages are not back. Galen has been tossed out of the fold because he wants to be in contact with the the rest of the Universe while the Circle feels the Mages should remain in hiding.

At the time of Crusades, the Mages are not back. That is discussed in the movie Call to Arms and at various points in the series. The Mages in the Centauri Prime books are essentially scouts, to see what is happening but to remain uninvolved as much as possible. Granted they end up ignoring that but that was their individual decisions.

The first technmage book clearly sets the time of departure as the begining of Season 2 so the 8 years is a solid number.

Except Galen left with the other Mages. In the movie "A call to Arms", there were others, and part of the conversation directed at Galen was his 'removal' from the group. That doesn't necessiarily mean all the mages have returned, or that they're set up as before. But, as Alywn mentioned, Galen was part of the group that left. What may be in question is exactly when did he return. Since the original idea was they were leaving because the Shadows were coming back, it only stands to reason that they'd not return until the Shadows were gone. It could also be as little as four years, too, before Galen actually returned. Based on your assumption that the technomages never returned, the ones we saw in "A Call to Arms" are all stragglers (Galen included) comeing back on their own. Alwyn is the only one that was mentioned that didn't go at all, but there could be others like him.
8 years isn't as solid as it would appear to some.

The Techno Mage novel is very clear that Isabelle died in 2258 (the end of season one). The show is very clear that the Mages left known space in early 2259 (season 2) and that the Drahk plague was launched at the five year anniversary of the formation of the Alliance (end of 2261 is when the Alliance is formed. Drahk plague launched 2266) Which means that it has been 8 years since Isabelle died.

Truth be told, I do not see how this can be debated since that time line is really very clearly established in the book and the series.

What is also made clear in a Call to Arms and Crusades is that the bulk fo the Mages are still hidding in 2266. The fact that the Circle expels Galen at that time for contact that might give away their loaction is a pretty clear statement that they are still hidding and don't want to be found.

Not only that, the fact that Galen is expeled for too much contact indicates that he was going back and forth between known space and the Mages hidding place up until that time.

The following is a quote from the Lurkers Guide synopsis of a Call to arms which clearly demonstrates that the Mages are still in hidding.

"Sheridan starts to reply, but finds himself elsewhere again. Several robed men are around a campfire. "It's a mistake! You shouldn't have brought him here!" one of
them says. They are chastising Galen for breaking the isolation without proof. But Galen claims that they need to break it to get the proof. And Sheridan is the only
one who can get it. The others relent, but warn Galen he will be the first to die if their security has been compromised through his actions."

This quote shows that it was the Circle who tossed Galen

"Galen is looking over the results of the battle in his crystal globe when a voice calls out to him. "The circle requires your presence." "

OK, so The Mages are still in hidding and are annoyed with Galen for his contact with humans. Supported by quotes directly from the movie Call to Arms.

The only area that I see that the show and books have not clearly answered is how many Mages are runnign around outside of their hidding place and why are they out there?

Galen and a few other Mages were running around, as seen in the Centauri Prime novels, my guess is that they would be the minority. There is also indication that the Mages in the Centauri Prime novels were sent there as scouts to see if it was safe for all the Mages to return.

Hopefully the second Mage book will give us an idea about how many Mage's stayed behind, like Alwyn. I am guessing that number is pretty small.

Why? Because the shot of all the Mage ships flying over Gideon when the Cerebus was attacked shows alot of ships. I did not bother to count them but there were alot of ships. Additionally, in Geometry of Shadows there are over 100 Mages gathering on B5 to take a chartered ship some place.

Where does this leave us? Isabelle died 8 years ago when Galen is remembering her death in Crusade. The Mages are still in hidding with, more likely then not, only a few running around. And the vast majority of Mages have been hidding for 8 years.