Babylon 5 Season 3 NO SPOILERS

The Shadows are coming to light, and I must say Earth's role looks more and more sinister, though it's nice to see some characters, like Endawi, who appear to be about just what they SAY they're about.

That Minbari-Vorlon ship's a regular daisy, and I certainly approve of Marcus, that hunky new addition to the cast. The fact that the crew are religious Minbari must mean some interesting divisions of thought on Minbar as well as Earth. I'd certainly like to know how the Vorlons cooperated in building the White Star, and that name's an interesting turn on Sheridan's victory over the Black Star. Do some Minbari want to move on from the war?

Londo's "buyers' remorse" conversation with Morden was most interesting. Having started this whole mess, he thinks he can just walk away, and clearly Morden's got no problem with this, having clearly made connections with Lord Refa. Is Londo's star going to fall from the Centauri constellation? It seems probable.

Ah season 3 is here. My how time flies in re-runs...

You know the rules. No spoilers and no teasing those who have not seen the series by making innocent little suggestions about what is to come. Play nice now (grins)

Season 3 is here. Tongiht kicks off a new season of B5. We are almost to the half way point of the series and season 2 left off with an interesting revelation or two about the Vorlons.

Ah season 3, I love season 3 (grins)

Marcus is an interesting addition to the cast. It looks like we will start to learn more about the Rangers and how they are trained now. He certainly seems compitent enough.

The White Star is killer. A nice ship that seems to be ahead of its time. I love watching Sheridan eye ball it, he is like a kid in the candy store. All the new gizmos and gadgets. Not only that but he seems much more at home here then he does on B5.

The Minbari look a bit less thrilled to have Sheridan commanding the White Star. They don't say anything but the look on their faces speak volumes.

Londo is an interesting character. When he first met Morden he was more then willing to accept his help to advance his cause. Now Londo is not so sure that this is going to work and tries to end the relationship. Interesting that Morden has already gone to Refa for help. Maybe he sensed this coming.

Nommy I think he went earlier because the mine field had been set before that conversation. Remember, Marcus escapes off the world before Londo meets with Morden.

I get the very real feeling that Morden started to look for other allies in the Centauri governmnet just to be on the saef side. Finding Refa probably was not all that hard.

Earths role in all of this is starting to become very interesting. Everyone see the Psi Cop hanging out in the background. The one who mentioned speeding up the "Plan"

Have I mentioned that I love this show?

Ok, just a question. Was that a person from Psi Corps with Morden at the end? The reason I ask is that he said they could continue on with [other] projects because Enwadi found no evidence that anyone recognized the Shadow ship. I think this is the first time that there was any mention of Earth using help from the Shadows. And, does Clark know of these projects?

You hit it on the head there, Crash. Of COURSE Sheridan is more at home on the White Star. He's a soldier, not an administrator, and he's used to having some "space" under him. Over all, given his background, I'd say Sheridan has done pretty well as an administrator of a large civilian population. That's something he was never trained for.

How will Sheridan's relationship with Kosh change, now that he's "seen" Kosh? Oh yeah, and before Delenn went into her chrysalis, she got Kosh to show himself to her. Did he appear to her as a religious figure, and was her belief the basis of her going through with the transformation?

YEah, cool ep. I always liked the feffect of opening a jump point inside a jumpgate. BOOM! Bye bye shadow dude!

I guess Lenier had an epiphanie since the religious teachings never prepared him for wsuch exileration. LOL

Crash, I always got the impression that Morden went to Refa that very day to secure what he needed, after Londa said he wanted to break the relationship.

Yes, Wizz, that was a Psi Corps toad with Morden. (He was a Psi Cop, was he not?) I don't think I can address the other part of your question without incurring the wrath of PC. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Or was that a rhetorical question?


[This message has been edited by fanuilhgkar (edited May 17, 2001).]

So far I am the only one to get called on for posting a spoiler so I don't think ya have to worry about my wrath (grins)

That was a Psi Cop, black gloves, black uniform, psi corp badge.

What we know at this time is that Santiago was assinated and Clark left the ship with a dubious excuse. We know that his own doctor said that Clark was not ill when he departed Earth Force One.

We know that members of a covert action group on earth were involved in the assination (the missing serial numbers on the PPG's. Garibaldi said inChrysallis that only certain Earth Gov organizations ahve such capability).

We have Clark blowing off the idea of assination (gee why could that be)

We have Night Watch and the Ministry of Peace, which could not exist without Presidential approval.

We have Hague's comments in season 2 about Earth Gov becoming something to be very concerned about, enough so that resistence cells are being set up.

Now we have a member of the Earht Senate and Psi Corp meeting with Morden after having sent a high ranking Earth offical to investigate the Shadow Ship siting.

We also have that someone ordered that clip to be pulled off of ISN.

Clark is involved. He has to be. You do not create new government beuracracies without the Presidents approval. And there is every indication that he is involved witht he assination of Santiago.

The question is, can anyone do anything about it? And what is the program that they are speeding up.

At this point in the series, we know Clark has pulled off a coup d'etat on Earth and that he is trying to consolidate his power base and eliminate any potential challenges to his authority.

How much he knows about Shadow involvement on Earth is still unclear. The Shadows do an end-around on Al Bester at PSI Corp, and you would think he would be a very difficult person to deceive. My guess is that the Shadows and their contacts in Earthgov are also working somewhat independently of Clarke, telling him only what they want him to know, and exploiting his hunger for power to get various programs and preparations in place; he is, in other words, something of a puppet. In his personal quest to stay in power, he is probably okaying initiatives to investigate Shadow technology and the like, but I think he is probably too distracted with potential challenges to his control of the Presidency to fully understand what's going on.

This seems to be the case, at least initially, on Centauri Prime, as well. To begin with, Emperor Cartagia seems to know very little about the Shadows; his ministers and supporters are the ones immediately in contact with their "associates." I think the Shadows only focus on the Emperor as a potential tool when some of their other tools have been "eliminated" by Centauri politics.

At this time we do not know that Morden has done an end around Bester, that has not been brought up in the series. I also do not think we have any idea what Cartagia knows or does not know.

Yeah, it's as I suspected. Avoiding spoilers about Morden/Shadow involvement with EarthGov/PsiCorp is like looking at thin ice and wondering if it's thick enough or not. There are a number of things coming up, and I just wanted a clearer idea of how certain "projects" progressed. And, I hope that's vague enough...

beserker probe

this is maybe the fifth time i have seen this episode and it has always bothered me. the whole thing with the beserker probe never made too much sense to me. if its intention is to seek out potential enemies, test their level of technology, and then destroy them if they appear dangerous, then it doesn't seem very well equipped to perform its funtion. it has a sufficient warhead to destroy B5, a space station, but of course if it encountered a planet, it would only do partial damage to the species it found. seems to me that blowing up a Minbari warship or a major Minbari city, while living everything else in tact, would be a good way to motivate the Minbari to tracking down whoever sent the probe and burning their butts. so unless the probe was specifically sent out to harass or destroy small targets in space, the whole things seems a little far-fetched as a premise.

and if your really wanted to destroy a civilization, you wouldn't send a beserker probe. you would send the holographic doctor from voyager. he would drive any species beserk.

Iz, I have to agree on both points. I missed the episode this time around, but I honestly don't think I missed much. Unless it was there to show how well all parts worked together (teamwork), it didn't do much. Maybe the "B" story (which I don't recall) was the better part of it.
As for the EMH, they should have left the good doctor with Neelix in the asteroid fields. Picardo plays the part well, but like ProfCrash's Chowderhead?, a well played part doesn't forgive a lame character.

actually, i guess i would class both of the last two episodes in the "hanger" category--i.e., they are mostly stand-along stories, only loosely connected to the overall story arc, on which some parts of the larger story can still be hung.

the main plot of the beserker episode is pretty innocuous. but it does provide an opportunity to show dr. franklin's increasing problems with stress and stims. plus it is another good case of things going haywire at the station, and thus distracting sheridan and crew from some of the other issues they need to deal with.

the episode about the mind-wipes falls in the same category. it's a more interesting story, i think, and raises some issues about the nature of good and evil, but it a little unusal for B5 in that it focuses the main story on an introduced character instead of one of the regulars. however, it also serves as a vehicle to reintroduce lyta alexander into the cast and to remind us of the presence of brother theo's monks.

come to think of it, "A Day in the Strife" was yet another recent example of these 'stand alone' stories. something that always separated B5 from shows like voyager and earth: final conflict was that jms could introduce these stories and still keep the big story constantly moving along to its next major peak, whereas the other series always seem to be disjointed and jumping from one unrelated story to another.

Low blow! No matter how bad you may think Sheridan is as a character, he's head and shoulders above the EMH.

Yeah, and instead of leaving Neelix in the asteroid swarm, they shoulda just shoved 'em out an airlock, along with Harry, Chakote, Tuvok, Naomi, and Janeway. Hmm, think that leaves only Seven, Tom and B'Lana, and the latter two would be on thin ice, IMO.

I missed the beserker ep, but iz makes good points. (When does iz ever NOT make good points?) I always thought the concept was kinda lame, too, but couldn't put my finger on it, except to think that blowing up the damned thing seemed a little too easy. Thanks, iz.

Oh, and someone mentioned EFC. Did anyone see the (hopefully) final ep of that, with the Geridians merging with the Taelons???? Did that blow, or what? And forgive me for venting off topic.

------------------
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Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four?

The worst character on B5 is head and shoulders better then the best character on Voyager. No doubt about it. But that is my opinion.

Day in the Strife was interesting but the only info that comes out of that episode that is really interesting to me is the Doc's use of stims. Garibaldi is clearly worried about Frankiln's use of stims and says something. Then at the end of the episode, Franklin lies to Garibaldi when he says that he got through the entire crisis without the use of stims.

I loved Passing through Gesthemane (sp) the first time around and I still love it now. This is a great episode. Not a part of the story arc, but that's fine. The issues addressed are more then a bit relevent, is the death penalty, in any form, acceptable? In typical JMS fasion, he lays out the story, many different points of view, and then lets you draw your own conclusions.

I have always thought that JMS handles religion really well and this episode was no exception. We got to learn abit more about how the Minbari worship and their ideologies. Sheridan is forced to deal with the issue of forgiveness, and Garibaldi has to come to terms with the difference between Brother Edward and the Black Rose Killer. I always liked that at the end of the episode Garibaldi, the one who wants electric bleachers, is very concerned about Edward.

I amy be one of the few here, but alot of my favorite episodes are not story arc episodes. I like the ones that really develop the characters and show sides of them that we are not likely to see during the normal arc episodes. These episodes serve to flesh out parts of the characters that we normally don't get to see.

Do we need to creat an EFC topic?

I think it is safe to say that Earthgov is on the side of the bad guys here. Clark talking to Morden and helping assasinate Santiago is a bad bad sign. When it stinks that bad at the top, most of the upper layers smell as well.

I love seeing the Flaming Tiki Torch first ones again. They make me laugh every time. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

It's a good ep for Ivanova. She mostly doesn't overact and gets some good one-liners. And she thinks on her feet. More so than pretty boy Marcus who was content to head home. Apparently persistance wasn't part of the Ranger training http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif

And I am a EFC fan, so maybe a topic is a good idea http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif

Ok, maybe I did a poor job of making a point. I didn't mean that Sheridan and the EMH were on par with one another. And to be truthful, I like the Sheridan character 50/50 for the most part. I used Prof's description on purpose, because <u>when</u> he's a Chowderhead?, the character is lame. Well acted, but lame. What I personally think was needed is a combination of Sinclair and Sheridan personalities. Just didn't get written that way.

Ivanova did get a couple of good one-liners in there. "That's ok, I understand the Vorlons carried you the last time." (Paraphrased). Talk about lighting a fire under those torches!

oooooops

bye bye, stand alone episodes, hello story arc.

has anyone ever discovered what the tiki torch first ones were saying about the vorlons? [i like to refer to them as the 'zogs'] they clearly didn't like them, but i've never seen an explanation of why they didn' like them.

iz

hey! i can answer my own question!

serves me right for not reading the Guide.

as far as i can tell, no spoilers here--

From the Lurker's Guide:

The First Ones sure have fragile egos.

The other part, I think, is that they were kind of amused to see this dinky little ship getting in their face, when they *knew* the First Ones could blast 'em to bits... Ivanova wanted to get in the face of the First Ones, to say, "Look, you can blow me away, but damn it, listen to me." If she'd said that "more reverently," as your friend noted, it would've worked against the logic of the scene and the resolution.

Would it be fair to say the First Ones weren't pleased to hear the Vorlons mentioned?

Fair, yes. Well, this isn't a *literal* translation, because some words don't translate, but the *sense* of the sentence would be "the vorlons can kiss my ____."

Was the mask image just a representation, or was it what the Walkers actually look like?

It's certainly a form of representation, an icon, rather than the literal entity, yes.

So who is older, the Shadows or the Walkers???

The shadows, but just by a smidge.

So did our heros make a mistake in seizing the dust? Clearly, the Narn could have done a lot of damage to the Centauri occupation with this stuff. Why not let them have it?

Or would this have ultimately been the wrong thing to do? Leading the Narns into addiction and dependence on the dust dealers? And continuing the endless killing between Narn and Centauri that Kosh so clearly indicates will end in mutual destruction if not halted.

Glitch glitch glitch: In the flashback to Londo's original appointment as ambassador, we see a rather dapper lookin Mollari, well groomed and well-dressed. Actually, in the earliest episodes of B5, Londo was somewhat slovenly. At least, his hair was never properly manicured, as it is later on, when he becomes respected and important. Somebody in makeup should have mussed up that hair.

Iz, what can I say about &quot;The Lurkers Guide&quot;? Similar experience with what everyone sees when they see a Vorlon. Off the top of my head I can't remember the guy who runs it, but he's done a fantastic job.

I got to see &quot;Dust to Dust&quot; for the first time end to end. Bester on telepath suppresants...funny how some things never change. Bester never changes.
G'Kar is fully aware of what he's up to, and tests it on Londo. Heh...boy did he get more than he bargained for. And once again, we see Kosh working his magic on the younger race. I guess when the mind is in an alternate state, he has no problem revealing himself and his message.
Just as a note...Walter Koenig's wife plays the part of the female PsiCorp cop at the end.The female Psi Cop here *was* the same as in ARTDP, played by Judy Levitt, who is also Walter's wife. Cool...could this be a trend?

Or maybe he was well-dressed and dapper because he thought he was going somewhere. Once reality set in, well, he sort of lost his motivation. Now that I don't work full time, sometimes I don't feel like showering, either! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

What can one say about "Exogenesis"? If you're like me and you're used to things moving along, this one was a bit of a let down. I guess it's nice that Franklin and Marcus can work together. But the story about the aliens looking for short-termed lifeforms to continue their existance so as to preserve the "memory of the past"...I dunno. What would have been interesting once Sheridan found out about these creatures is to have a little sit-down session and see what they could tell him regarding the Shadows in the past. And, those that supported them, too. Man, talk about a missed opportunity.
I did like the setup with Marcus and the roses. Neither Marcus nor Ivanova has a clue to the real story, but they're set up anyway. Poor Corwin. Talk about an inauguration to higher rank. I think his reaction to Ivanova's invitation to come to her quarters may have influenced his response to her primary question. He was far from comfortable in her quarters, so he's going to give the politically correct answer, regardless. Could be interesting...