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For Matt Lawton and John Riggan? This puts the stake through the heart of Juan coming back. Why would he? His best friend is no longer on the team, the Tribe would surely try to cheap him out in any contract deal, and it's obvious their sights are set on some distant point in the future. Way beyond the horizon. Sure they freed up some money but it's not for Juan. What the hell, they never won a series beating people's brains in maybe they'll do it with young, inexperienced pitching and average hitting.
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Uh, Robbie was only making 8 million, but his offensive and defensive production was equal to a 12 million dollar player.
I hope this isn't about behind the scenes payback for Dolan.
Perhaps some kickback in New York Business.
Dumb Move...all we needed was Juan back.
Sad to say, getting Lawton was a great move, but not for Robbie.
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Alex
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Matt Lawton makes 6 million this year, and then is eligible for arbitration...
Robbie makes 8 million, but we still had this year, and next year as an option.
Robbie was a great deal. Was he really causing problems in the locker room for this deal to be made?
...it certainly wasn't for the money savings.
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Alex
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It gets a lot worse. Just read that the PTBNL are Peoples and Bacsik. This is a horrible trade. Regardless of personalities, clubhouse atmosphere etc. it's just not value for value. Lawton and Escobar? A maybe and a prospect for a 12 time All Star and the minor league pitcher of the year? Wasn't Peoples considered a rising star in the organization? This is just awful. Is Ted Stepian consulting for the Tribe now? Quick somebody put some pillows in the basement of the AL Central Division. Maybe that will help break the fall.
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I think Lawton may be the big surprise in this trade.
However, even if he puts up Robbie like numbers...he is elegible for arbitration after this season...that is what bothers me most about this trade...that and the fact that we don't have a second basemen that I know of.
Lawton is making 6 million, Robbie was an absolute steal at 8 million...heck, we should have forced them to take Cordero...than it would almost have been worth it.
Until all the players are analyzed...we don't know how bad or even the deal is.
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Alex
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I guess that's the difference between you and me Alex. This deal sucks and I know it today. It may take you until August to figure it out. There is no justification for this deal. It is an absolute slap in the face to the fans of Cleveland who have ponied up the dough to support this team. There is no one on the Mets that could give us equal value for Robbie. There aren't 2 guys on the Mets worth one Alomar. That's what pisses me off. Why not just push him in front of a train. Either way you end up with nothing.
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Lawton may be Robbie's Equal...I know that sounds hokey, but Lawton is a young Kenny Lofton...with a bit more power.
I hate the trade...but that doesn't mean I can't hope it won't hurt.
I'm curious about all the players involved...
Bacsik wasn't given much of a chance with us...I'm surprised we let him go.
Escobar may indeed have Ricky Ledee written all over him...he is the one player I hope we ship off somewhere else.
Gosh darn it, why couldn't Cordero have been part of the trade.
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Alex
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Here is the trade broken down:
Robbie, Bascik, Peoples for Lawton, Escobar, Riggen, Traber, and PTBNL. Lawton for Alomar isn't that bad. Lawton is scheduled to make $5 mil, not $6, next season. Plus, Shapiro has said that they are close to an extension with Lawton, meaning he will not have to go to arbitration. Escobar was the #1 prospect for the Mets. Riggen was the Mets' Dannys Baez. A rookie starter who pitched out of the pen last season and was lights out after replacing their former set-up man, Turk Wendell. Sounds exactly like Baez' situation with the Tribe, doesn't it? Riggen was the #3 prospect of the Mets. Traber was the Mets #1 pick in 2000, and was already rated the #2 prospect of the Mets. He is a lefthanded starter. So, the Indians get Lawton, a poor man's Alomar, the Mets top 3 prospects, plus a player to be named later for Alomar, a finesse lefty (Bascik), and an old, fading prospect (Peoples). I don't think that this trade is that bad. Plus, Shapiro already admitted that they are not done, so just wait and see what is next.
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Lawton is a poor man's Alomar...an excellent description.
What is bothersome is we had the best production out of second base imagineable..so we have transferred a traditionally weaker position offensively (2nd base) where we were strong, to the typically stronger position, centerfield.
But, ultimately, if Lawton puts up numbers similar to Robbie this upcoming year, the deal won't be as horrendous as people think.
Although just getting Juan back would have been my preference.
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited December 11, 2001).]
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I wonder who is next??? I'm willing to bet Omar. I honestly can't believe what is happening to this team. This is not rebuilding or retooling, it is plain and simple dismantling. I've been accused of being so negative. Tell me, since the season ended what the hell is there to be positive about? Alomar was a bargain at his salary so I can't figure this one out.
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Hey this is something I actually emailed to Rob Neyer, he never got around to replying to me. Probably will talk about it in tomorrow's column but just wondering what you guys think.
OK let's say that Alomar hits .320, 90 RBI, 115 runs, 15 HRs, 25 SB, and gold glove defense. And nothing comes from Bacsik and Peoples.
What kind of performance do you expect from the people we get, and at what points in the future so that you feel like the Tribe came out on top in this trade?
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Oh and yah if you look at the stats that Lawton put up last year...he is a high OBP guy. I mean although he hit in the high 270s, he still had a 380+ OBP plus 400+ slugging percentage. And remember how important he was to the Twins offense.
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One weird side benefit to this.
Omar openly ridiculed the Twins style of beating the ball into the carpet at Twins Stadium as a "cheap" way to get on base.
I mean, Omar is the little guy around Robbie, Thome, Juan, Ellis, Branyan, Heck even Kenny wanted to homer.
Perhaps seeing a guy like Lawton hitting choppers for base hits will not seem like such a bad idea to Omar, who could work on his .257 batting average.
Ok, I'm reaching for straws.
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Alex
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Haha...yah Omar has to realize that runs win ball games, not pop ups to short left.
Anyway...any thoughts Alex on what you would like to see from what we received to make this a good trade from the trade? Like...let's say next year what do you want to see from Lawton and Riggen? And in 2003, what do you want ot see from Escobar? And in 2004, Trabber?
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I'll stick to Lawton for now...
.320 average, .410 OBP...20 homers, 100 runs scored, 30 stolen bases, 75 runs batted in.
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Alex
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But, will they keep Lawton beyond next year? I have my doubts, especially if Lawton has a good year. Sound familiar? Face it, we're now the Flying Dutchmans of MLB.
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All indications are Tribe intends to sign Lawton to multi-year deal which would be an excellent move! Some post above indicated Lawton was to make 5 mil this year. I'm not sure this is correct. I believe Lawton currently has no contract for 2002 and is arbitration eligible and expected to get around 6-7 mil in arbitration.
Also no crying over Peoples/Bacsik. Peoples is a total zero and will be 6-yr free agent after next year. Bacsik is a nice soft-tossin' lefty but no great shakes. At best maybe a 4 or 5 starter. Traber & Riggan are both better pitchers.
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I posted above with the $5 mil Lawton number. Yes, he is arbitration eligable. However, it was Shapiro himself who said all indications were that Lawton would recieve $5, and not $6 mil in arbitration. However, Shapiro also said in the conference that he was almost finished on a mulityear extension with Lawton, and he would not have done the deal if he could not have gotten Lawton long term. So, he will be staying. Also, I have now heard that Pat Strange is the likely other player in the trade. If that is the case, that would mean that the Indians would have taken the top 4 prospects from the Mets minor league system. Their top rated prospects, in order, were: Escobar, Strange, Riggen, Traber. That's all 4. That would be like us giving Sabathia, Baez, Westbrook, Riske away in a deal. So, it may look as bad as some may think. I actually like the deal for the 2003 season. An outfield of Lawton, Bradley, Escobar with experience from 2002 could be awesome. Plus, a future rotation of Sabathia, Colon, Baez, Strange, and Traber with a bullpen of Riggen, Riske, DePaula, J.Wright would be great. Good move for the future, and the near future.
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Hope your right about Pat Strange. That woould be excellent. It doesn't diminish their value at all but BA had Traber #8 and Riggan #12. Also don't forget Escobar had a disappointing season and seemed to regress on his plate discipline. Is their a link regarding Strange as being part of deal? That just might change my perception of the trade as a whole if true.
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No. I heard it on Kenny Roda's radio show when he was talking with the guy from Baseball America. Also, that was the guy who said Traber and Riggen were that high among Met prospects. Him and Kenny seemed pretty confident that Strange might be the other name. He has to be someone on the 40 man roster, according to the report. Among prospects on their 40 man, that only leaves Strange and Grant Roberts.
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well, if it's between strange and roberts, we can't go wrong with either one. should turn out to be a good trade for cleveland.
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The Mets prospects we got are like C.C., Riske, etc? Come on, the best of the Mets farm is still a joke. Their system is rated as poor. Traber will be a #4, maybe a #3 at best. We already have one of those-Bartolo Colon. We needed to get a potential #1 in this deal, like a Bud Smith. THAT'S rebuilding. This was a white flag deal, with somebody in the Tribe organization not liking Robbie, and wanting to get him out of town. The Mets fans (and probably management) feel like this was a royal fleecing.
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Hey Babe Root,
No one ever really knows the "potential" of starters when they are in the minors. I mean think about it, would anyone have thought that Maddux and Glavine had the stuff to be front of the rotation starters? Location is the key to pitching, stuff helps, but location is just as important. And why are you saying that Colon is a number 3 starter? Thought you said that projections were all important and that Traber was only a number 3 or number 4, I know that Colon is a "porjected" number 1, and has been considered one for a long time.
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