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Let's grade Mark's moves:
1. Bradley trade: A-
The kid looks good, and may be a star by 2004. Day is a little better than Drew.
2. Alomar trade: B-
The Escobar injury pushes this move down, but it can easily be upgraded when Escobar comes back and wins a job, and/or if Traber can take over for Finley and stay healthy.
3. Ricky G. signing: C
There wasn't a lot available here, so Shapiro just took what he could get. If we get the Ricky of spring training, it goes up to a B.
4. Wohlers signing: D-
This guy may find it, but it better be soon. He looks awful. Why so much money for a suspect?
5. 2001 draft: A
Shapiro ran this draft, and scored big with Martin, Denham, and Foley. How often does a 17 year-old in the Appalacian League make national news? And, he's not even the best one.
6. Manager: A-
No way does Wickman or Thome stay if Charlie was fired. The Tribe isn't going to win the Series this year, so, what the hell.
Charlie does do a great job with the young players. And, if the team misses the playoffs, Shapiro can then usher in the Eddie Murray Era without pissing off the players.
Overall, I give Shapiro a B for his work. He's in a very tough spot here, trying to re-build and still compete at the same time, and reduce budget. Hart drained the system of young hitters, and caused some bad drafts. I can think of a lot worse GMs to have here.
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I give Shapiro an A. He's in a tough spot, trying to retool this team, maintain fan loyalty, and cut payroll. Given the options available I don't know what anyone could have done better.
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Gramen artificiosum odi.
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I honestly have no grade for Shapiro because we won't know how any of the moves pan out until at the end of the season. You forgot his signing of Wickman, getting rid of Rocker for at least a serviceable minor leaguer. For the Alomar trade, how about if Snyder develops?
Anderson signing at 200Gs or 1 million will be worthwhile even if he doesn't start all the time. He is a good defensive replacement for now, especially while cabrera is out.
Wohlers puzzled me especially since it came after the big trade, but at 4 million, it really isn't that big a dip in the pocket book. What oculd we have signed for that much?
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Until the jury hands in a verdict on Escobar-Traber-Bradley and the last two drafts I will give Shapiro an Incomplete.
Signing Wohlers to a two year deal is puzzling to me but with "whirlpool Shueys injury history and Baez's insertion to the rotation it makes sense. Jeff Shaw didn't want to come here so i believe Shapiro is banking on Wohlers having a complete recovery from TJ surgery as Karsay did.
While Anderson was a low risk move i don't want this old stiff getting regular Playing time, it is sickining to hear things like "If Brady hits .250 he will be an asset or whatever. If this is a transition year you play young players such as Bradley and even 26 year old Karim Garcia who could be the lightning in the bottle like Cordova was last season.
Charlie in my view will be gone after this season and replaced by Eddie Murray.
In judging Shapiros overall performance i hold him to the same standard that i have for OSU Coach Jim Tressel, 4-5 yrs to implement his plan, by then we should have a much clearer idea of what we have in the aformentioned players in addition to Corey Smith-Denham-Martin-Herrera-Vic Martinez-etc. and Danyz Baez's move to the rotation.
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I applaud everything he has done except...
Picking up Cholly's option
Signing Anderson
Signing Wolhers.
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srg,
The only way Anderson gets into the lineup is if he proves that he can be a leadoff hitter. Right now it is a debate as to where to put Lawton, and will it be better for Lawton to move to the leadoff spot and move someone else into the 3 hole. Unfortunately, with Fryman struggeling, he is not an option in that hole or the third hole. I guess the lineup might look like this with Anderson playing the 4th OF.
Lawton
Omar
Burks
Thome
Ricky
Branyan
Fryman
Bradley
Diaz
I would rather have Ricky bat sixth since he is totally not the prototypical fifth hitter, but I want to divide Branyan and Thome even more. Right now, Ricky is a better hitter then Fryman so deserves to bat higher.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by the teacher:
I give Shapiro an A. He's in a tough spot, trying to retool this team, maintain fan loyalty, and cut payroll. Given the options available I don't know what anyone could have done better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a surprise you giving Shapiro an A. He could trade the whole team and you would still be telling us what a wonderful job he is doing.
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I listened to Shapiro on Rome the other day and I was actually beginning to believe that maybe in time he is the right man for the job. He certainly sounds intelligent. Then he went on to describe the offer the Mets made for Alomar as "compelling." Now believe me when I say I have moved on since the Alomar trade. But no way on earth was the package that the Indians received for Alomar compelling. If that is his definition of the word I hate to think of who or what he might trade Colon or Thome for.
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Compelling is defined in so many different terms. we traded a HOF player. But he is one of 25 players on the team. We got in return a player who is 3 years younger and nearly his equal offensively, maybe 10 RBIS and 5 HRs over the entire season. We also got an up and coming set up guy in Riggan. He hasn't shown it much this spring, but from his minor league and previous major league track record, he seems to be the real deal.
We also got a possible future All Star OFer in Escobar, potential wise I admit, but still better then anything we have in the farm system, and an almost lock for the 3-4 starter slot in 2003-2004.
So in other words, we detracted from one position, 2B, with the loss of Alomar, but with the way Ricky has been playing, it may not be the biggest downgrade in the world, and we upgraded our outfield for this year, and we probably upgraded the bullpen even more, and upgraded the farm system by a lot. I think that is what Shapiro found compelling. He wanted quantity with some quality, and was willing to give up extreme quality to get it. It is like trading a Mercedes for a bunch of Camrys. If you need the Camrys more because of a bigger family need for quantity, then you give up the Benz.
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When Shapiro said "compelling", he really meant "best offer". Sheffield wasn't the answer, and the Yanks had no pitching to offer. No one else wanted Robbie and his next contract. If all we got was Lawton, Traber, and Riggan, this is a good trade. If Escobar shows up, it's a great trade. The Mets BETTER sign Robbie, or Mets fans will be an angry mob in 2004. Traber was their replacement for Leiter, and Escobar was the only OF prospect. Lawton cost them their #2 starter, and the other pitchers in the rotation were pissed to see Riggan go.
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As for The Yankees interest in Alomar, They pulled Drew Henson-Soriano and Nick Johnson off the table, Steinbrenner was pissed b/c Casheman couldn't pawn off crap like Ted Lilly-Shane Spencer and a couple other lower profile prospects on us. The team I thought might have interest in Alomar (Toronto) wouldn't give up their best infield prospect Felipe Lopez, there just was not any better package out there than the one we got from the Mets. The Atlanta Braves who tried to sign him a couple yrs ago would not give up Marquios Giles, Wilson Bettiment nor Rafael Furcal or any of their top pitching prospects. These were the only trade suitors in any Alomar deal but were unwilling to part with their top prospects for a guy who would be a free agent in two yrs or could demand a trade after his first season after a deal. Shapiro did get the best package that was out there for Alomar and there was not the interest in Alomar that most fans who opposed the deal think.
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There was interest probably, but not what Shapiro wanted, something that could help the team this year, Lawton and Riggan, along with foundations for the next couple years, Escobar and Traber along with Snyder the way he has been playing.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edwardo:
. No one else wanted Robbie and his next contract.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bing! You, sir, have just said the magic words. Swanny and friends need to repeat them until they finally sink in.
HOF or not, an aging middle infielder, best years behind him, about to demand a monster contract, makes economic sense for very few teams (and I think the Mets will soon find out that they're not on that list, because they're not going to be able to re-sign him- they will discover that they cleaned out what little was left of their farm system in return for a rent-a-player.)
As a fan of both the Tribe (as an adopted son of NE Ohio) and the Mets (the team I grew up rooting for in the NY suburbs), I have little doubt that the Amazins got the short end of that deal. I'm glad Shapiro got value for Robbie before he walked, but I wish Steve Phillips hadn't been the victim. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:
Someone reminded me today that part of what made Robbie so valuable is every at bat was an adventure for the opposing team.
Would Robbie lay down a beautiful bunt, slam a liner drive down the left line for a double, or hit an opposite field homer.
Sometimes Robbie would just settle for the walk knowing that with Juan and Thome coming up, there would be hell to pay.
Most people believe that Robbie has amazing range, so I don't know what to make of this "aging", under the league average in range claims that have been made on this board.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Alex, he's still great even though he's not quite as superhuman as he was a few years ago. But the huge, new contract he's demanding will start when he's around 36, an age at which declining skills become visible in all middle infielders no matter how gifted. There's no way his actual performance will be worth the money he wants to receive over the next few years. Again, that's taking nothing away from the fact that he's one of the greatest players we'll ever be lucky enough to see.
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[This message has been edited by supersleuth (edited March 18, 2002).]
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Someone reminded me today that part of what made Robbie so valuable is every at bat was an adventure for the opposing team.
Would Robbie lay down a beautiful bunt, slam a liner drive down the left line for a double, or hit an opposite field homer.
Sometimes Robbie would just settle for the walk knowing that with Juan and Thome coming up, there would be hell to pay.
Most people believe that Robbie has amazing range, so I don't know what to make of this "aging", under the league average in range claims that have been made on this board.
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Discuss This...<A HREF="http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=&number=30" TARGET=_blank>
Super-8 Filmmaking in the Digital Age...</A>
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What is a roster spot worth? We have 25 guys on the big league club, right?
As long as Shapiro has Wil Cordero on this team, he has 24 guys on the big league club, not 25. If Rivera makes the team, that 23 guys on the club.
Is the Tribe so chock-full of talent that we only need 23 guys to compete with the 25 that other teams carry?
Rivera and Cordero have NO VALUE. Hell, COrdero doesn't even have TRADE value.
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Proudly stating the obvious for over 40 years!
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Alex,
when was the last time Robbie hit an opposite field homer?! Everything I remember him hitting was pulled. Just a thought.
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Shapiro receives F-
Total destruction of Indians playoff/WS potential. Turned a powerhouse team into the Brewers in less than a year. Zero good moves.
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NYCJB, have you not been following spring training? The Tribe's pitching looks strong, while the WSox look like the Sister of Mercy softball team. No play-offs? I beg to differ. Unless the Twins' young hitters start banging, it's all Tribe.
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Edwardo,
Pay no attention to NYCJB; he is a prototypical "anti-fan" loser. All the fun of the game has long since left him, and he deserves our sympathy.
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Gramen artificiosum odi.
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DId you attend any games in the '70s or '80s? Lots of times you could go up an hour before game time and get good seats -- there'd be 5000 or so fans on hand.
Were they "anti-fans"?
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Proudly stating the obvious for over 40 years!
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Comments in bold on the originaal post in this thread.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edwardo:
Let's grade Mark's moves:
1. Bradley trade: A-
The kid looks good, and may be a star by 2004. Day is a little better than Drew.
This was a Hart trade, not Shapiro. No grade.
2. Alomar trade: B-
The Escobar injury pushes this move down, but it can easily be upgraded when Escobar comes back and wins a job, and/or if Traber can take over for Finley and stay healthy.
Injured Escobar or not, Shapiro did not get enough for HOF 2b still in prime. Then he has to spend too much to get mediocre replacement 2b in Guttierez. Grade D
3. Ricky G. signing: C
There wasn't a lot available here, so Shapiro just took what he could get. If we get the Ricky of spring training, it goes up to a B.
Too much for too little. Grade D
4. Wohlers signing: D-
This guy may find it, but it better be soon. He looks awful. Why so much money for a suspect?
Two year guaranteed contract for guy nobody was hot for. Terrible sign. Didn't even need another RH relief pitcher. Grade F
5. 2001 draft: A
Shapiro ran this draft, and scored big with Martin, Denham, and Foley. How often does a 17 year-old in the Appalacian League make national news? And, he's not even the best one.
Why draft Alan Horne if you're not going to sign him? Tribe should of been aware of his contract demands before picking him. Wasted one 1st round pick. Love Martin, Denham great potential, but always risky drafting high school pitchers. Why did we pick 3 in 1st round? Should have picked at least one position player in 1st round and shouldn't have picked Horne. Opportunity lost. Grade C+
6. Manager: A-
No way does Wickman or Thome stay if Charlie was fired. The Tribe isn't going to win the Series this year, so, what the hell.
Charlie does do a great job with the young players. And, if the team misses the playoffs, Shapiro can then usher in the Eddie Murray Era without pissing off the players.
Thome had no option to leave. Wickman would have stayed for any manager as long as Rocker was gone and the $$ were right. Keeping Charlie to be Shapiro's first scapegoat is wise for Shapiro but bad for the team. Charlie fired by August. Shapiro took the easy way keeping Charlie. They had to pay him anyway. Grade C-.
Overall, I give Shapiro a B for his work. He's in a very tough spot here, trying to re-build and still compete at the same time, and reduce budget. Hart drained the system of young hitters, and caused some bad drafts. I can think of a lot worse GMs to have here.
Hart left the cupboard bare of young postion players and a bloated payroll. But Shapiro has done nothing of note to make this team better or cheaper. The small decrease in payroll is disproportional to the talent lost. Acquiring Lawton, Guttierez, Brady Anderson, Mark Wohlers has done nothing to make this team younger or better. Shapiro acquired a underachieving top prospect (Escobar) whom the Mets had tired of waiting for him too develop. He grabbed a promising LH starter (Traber) with a time bomb in his elbow (partially torn ligament).
All Shapiro has excelled at so far is making this team 'different' and promoting his brand of 'spin' on why it needs to be so.
Young promising pitchers on this team were from the Hart regime yet Shapiro would let us think he is responsible for them. It will be awhile before the results are in but things look ominous. Grade D.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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[This message has been edited by *TR (edited March 20, 2002).]
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The Bradley trade was considered Shapiros first trade even though it was on Harts watch, Neil Huntington also had a hand in the deal since he scouted Bradley when he worked with the Expos.
On Alan Horne, He gave no indications anywhere before the draft that he was going to demand 2 million Dollars that Dan Denham got, on the contrary, he wanted to sign but his parents sought the advice of an agent wich caused the negotiations to go haywire. Horne who was thought to be a top 5 pick slid until the 27th pick b/c a drop in velocity. The Indians can't be blamed on this one.
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Wickman said there was no way he was coming back if Charlie was fired. If Thome signs, it'll be because Charlie is still here.
One thing I didn't grade Shapiro on was his hirings. Eddie Murray was a great move, as was promoting Mike Brown. These guys command big-time respect from the players, and know what they're talking about, in contrast to Pole and Jones. Mark gets an "A" here.
Initially, I thought the Tribe should've gotten more for Alomar, but nobody was offering more. Robbie is not in his prime, but rather the end of his prime. It was the right time to trade him. Lawton will put up similar numbers in this line-up, Riggan will be key, Traber will be a very good starter, with no real reason to think his arm is going to fall off. He pitched all last year with no harm. Escobar is the icing on the cake.
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TR I think you might have been a little harsh. I'm not a fan of the alomar trade but there is no way that Escobar's injury could be predicted. Your other comment about the Mets giving up on him. Give me a break the guy is 23, he hasn't even touched his peak and mind you was on fire this spring. Escobar will be a good major leaguer.
Point 2: What's the beef with Charlie?? The guy has done nothing but win. This is a proving year for Charlie and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The players like him, the coaches like him and the players want to win for him, I don't get it what's not to like. he has he specifically lost a game for us??
I agree however on the signing of Wohlers and Guitterez. Nobody else was interested and we jumped the gun and overpaid. He is however letting some of the younger players to get some time in. Russell Branyan, David Riske, and Ryan Drese to name a few. He also did the smart thing and signed CC to an extended contract because of those good moves I give him a C, I think once Escobar is healthy again this grade will move up
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viper
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *TR:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TR you are wrong on Horne as you were with Baez's velocity before he was signed. Alan Horne's drop in stock was because of his lower back problem wich set him back at OLE Miss and his late spring drop in velocity (2001) Horne's parents sought the advice of an agent after he was drafted not before. As For Milton Bradley, Shapiro gets credit for that deal whether you believe it or not.
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Hart said that it was Shapiro's call on Bradley. Too bad he didn't have the say on the Rocker deal.
I have my problems with Charlie's managing, but I like the way he works with the young players. He's the right guy for this team.
As for Eddie, please consult the ST stats. Omar hitting .356 with 12 RBI? Branyan at .270 with THREE strikeouts? Something good is happening here. It's not about his personality, it's what he has to offer in the way of instruction, and how he gets it across.
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MANUEL HAS NOT LOST A GAME PERSONALLY?wow!who pitched nagy 3 times at the end of a crucial season?once ok,twice maybe, but not 3 times.we lost out on play-offs by 1(one)game.with the team he had given to him he should have won(minimum)98-104 games.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by srg:
The Bradley trade was considered Shapiros first trade even though it was on Harts watch, Neil Huntington also had a hand in the deal since he scouted Bradley when he worked with the Expos.
Sorry. No way Shapiro gets credit for this one. This is a Hart transaction all the way to its origin in trading Justice. Bradley was Hart's call 100%.
Horne who was thought to be a top 5 pick slid until the 27th pick b/c a drop in velocity. The Indians can't be blamed on this one.
To the contrary, signability was exactly why Horne was still on the board at 27. The Tribe knew he was going to be a tough sign. Don't try to revise history...unless you're a Shapiro spin doctor.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edwardo:
Wickman said there was no way he was coming back if Charlie was fired.
No way?? I doubt Wickman ever said that. He likes Charlie but it still comes down to no Rocker and $$$.
If Thome signs, it'll be because Charlie is still here.
This one is almost preposterous. Charlie's status (and he'll probably be gone by the end of the year} will not effect Thome's negotiations one iota. Thome will be influenced by $$ and years and his stated desire to play an entire career with the Clevland Indians.
One thing I didn't grade Shapiro on was his hirings. Eddie Murray was a great move, as was promoting Mike Brown. These guys command big-time respect from the players, and know what they're talking about, in contrast to Pole and Jones. Mark gets an "A" here.
No argument on Mike Brown. Good hire. Murray has the markings of a good hire but it is way too early to judge. All the spin about Murray being this great clubhouse guy may be overrated. As a player he was traded from the LA Dodgers after one season with the reputation for being disruptive in the clubhouse and being a bad influence on the younger players. He also is the guy who refused to play any 1b because he thought Hart lowballed him on salary and he was only getting enough to be expected to DH. Murray may be great but this one we will need some results before praise.
Initially, I thought the Tribe should've gotten more for Alomar, but nobody was offering more. Robbie is not in his prime, but rather the end of his prime. It was the right time to trade him. Lawton will put up similar numbers in this line-up, Riggan will be key, Traber will be a very good starter, with no real reason to think his arm is going to fall off. He pitched all last year with no harm. Escobar is the icing on the cake.
Escobar wasn't icing, he was the meat of the trade. Without Escobar Shapiro never makes the deal.
Riggans is nothing special. He's 27 and barely has a full season of major league time. The Mets gave him up easily. He comes under the category replacable part. No reason to be concerned about Traber's arm? Well, well respected NY Orthopedic surgeons disagree. His partially torn elbow ligament is an inevitability rather than a probability for sugery some day. 1, 2, 3, 5 years? Who knows? But it is a lurking problem.
Nobody was offering more? You must be privy to information I don't have. Many baseball execs were surprised when the Alomar deal came down. They didn't even know there was talk.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by *TR (edited March 20, 2002).]
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Who else did he have to go to?? There was nothing in the pitching cupboard to pull from. Anyway if you want to look at that he got us into the playoffs by sticking his neck out there for CC, so I guess Charlie won us 17 games last year to push us into the playoffs
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viper
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Charlie judges the young talent well, but his strategies on the field are often lacking. Leaving Colon in to face Ichiro in the last play-off game was the kiss of death.
"I was saving Rincon." If a rhinoceros is charging you, and you have one bullet, you don't save it for later.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thinker:
MANUEL HAS NOT LOST A GAME PERSONALLY?wow!who pitched nagy 3 times at the end of a crucial season?once ok,twice maybe, but not 3 times.we lost out on play-offs by 1(one)game.with the team he had given to him he should have won(minimum)98-104 games.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Couldnt' agree more. Who else should have started? Answer- anyone.
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