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Brady Anderson, Ricky Gutierrez? Remove Alomar & Gonzalez, not to mention Belle, Ramirez from roster over the years? This is how the Indians repay their fans, with garbage players, weak trades, and penny pinching moves. But what is even more outrageous is that the fans of this collection of stiffs seem to feel that the Tribe will win something this summer. This is why Indian management feels that it can run any ridiculous team out on the field, because the lemming fans will support it. You got what you deserve.
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Your backasswards. We didn't "clamor" for these trades.
Now you can give back some of your TV revenues before fans in every market demand all Yankee games be removed from their local markets.
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Alex
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited December 27, 2001).]
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Get lost, asshole. You bottom feeders are still pissed because we stopped you from winning in 1997.
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America vs. Osama's Wimpy Warriors...35,987-3,200. We win, asshole.
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Finally someone who thinks like me! Welcome NYC JewBoy. Bad mouthing the Tribe won't get you very far on this forum but at least now I will have some company.
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Swanny,
I refuse to be snowed by ignorant fans, Indians PR hacks, or garbage baseball, which the Indians will be providing soon enough.
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Hey JewBoy! There are actually posters on this forum and Cleveland Live that are "giddy" about the upcoming season. Our still weak starting pitching combined with a much less potent lineup is a recipe for 90 losses. Just wait and see!
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Swanny! Name one person that's giddy about this season. Most of the comments I've seen have been somewhat reserved about this year. They remain positive, but they're hardly giddy.
I think what needs to be done is a wait and see approach. If you or Jewboy believe that either of the WSox or Twins are dominating teams, then I don't think you know baseball as well as either of you believe.
I've gone on record as being against most of Shapiro's moves so far, but I don't see anybody else in the Central that will walk away with the division. Please tell me you don't think either of those team's are great teams. Because if you do, then you will be sorely disappointed this year.
87 to 89 wins will win this division. Remember what I've said. The AL east and West will hand Central teams their lunch. It all boils down to how each team does in their division and with the weaker teams in the other divisions.
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We do have to wait and see how the season unfolds. I can tell that you are the kind of person who would just love to throw it in my face if the Tribe does well. I hope that happens because I AM a fan. I just want you to expect the same if the team is weak. I'm not claiming to know more than others but the thing that puzzles me is the number of people on this forum who do not believe that this team has the potential to be very weak this coming season. Once again I hope you will be throwing it in my face at the end of the season because I want this team to do well.
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Actually I would only throw it back in your face if you refused to admit you were wrong, or you denied ever saying it. Otherwise, everybody has a right to their opinion.
I will have no problem saying I was wrong, so I would expect the same from you. My prediction is not that they will win the division, it's that they will win between 85 and 87 games. I believe the AL Central winner will have less than 90 wins. That's why I believe they will be in the race.
As far as this team having a chance to be weak, that's always a possibility with most teams.
I admit, there are a lot of ifs: If Colon can be a number one (he certainly should be), if CC continues to develop (he should), if Baez and Drese can be effective starters (we're not looking for them to be superstars), if Finley can bounce back (I have my doubts), if Lawton can be the player he was with the Twins (again I have doubts), if Guttierez can make the switch (I have huge doubts there), if Fryman can bounce back (I believe he can), if Bradley can be a major league player (I think he'll be okay - but not spectacular), if Branyan can be the hitter everybody hopes he can be (not a chance).
There are a lot of ifs, and if all of them happen, this team would be tremendous. That's not a likely scenario. On the other hand, if none of them pan out, this team will be pathetic (I don't see that happening either).
Of course I reserve the right to change my stance until the end of ST. At that time, I will make my final prediction for the year. A lot can happen between now and then, and usually does. One or two trades or a free agent signing can make a tremendous difference on a team. You never know what can happen. For instance, if they traded Omar or Thome for young prospects, then the team would be seriously weakened. Conversely, if the traded Omar for a solid number 3 starter and moved McDonald to SS, then you suddenly have a solid starting staff.
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Now that Alomar is gone I would have no problem with them trading Omar for a #3 starter. I think that would be a good move.
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I agree totally. I love Omar, but he is a 33 or 34 year old SS, and if they could get a solid young starter that could be plugged in the 3 spot, you have to do it.
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Hey Bye! While you are here. I cannot for the life of me understand why Shapiro gave Rickey G and Lawton multi-year deals before they ever played a single game in a Tribe uniform. I know you posted that same question before. I just wanted to let you know that I am as puzzled by those moves as you are. Shapiro is certainly trying to put his stamp on the team in a real hurry. If anything he is the one showing impatience regarding the players. That's not a good sign.
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I agree 100%. I hope he doesn't think this will help sell tickets. I'm kind of surprised that many of the forum posters think it was a good move.
How does anybody know that Lawton will perform as well on grass in an open stadium as he did at the Metrodome? His lifetime BA is 30 points higher there than on the road. Yes he did hit well at the Jake, but that was in limited at bats, not a real good indication of what he will do on a daily basis.
All I wanted was for them to wait until July before they gave him that contract. I think that would have given them a good enough indication. Hey, if he hits as well here as he did in Minnesota, then fine give him the deal. But if he plays like he did in NY, then move him.
As far as Guttierez, I think they could have gotten a 2nd baseman that would be at least as productive offensively, and wouldn't have to learn a new position, for a lot less than what they gave him. David Bell could probably been had for a 2 year 5 million dollar deal.
By then, they could have developed a player in the minors to replace him. I'm holding off on being too prejudgemental on Shapiro, but so far, I don't like what he's done.
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Just in case anyone missed it, from the latest Pluto email column:
5. Seeing the huge crowds at Jacobs Field and the fans wearing Tribe jackets and shirts. I still remember the tiny crowds in the huge stadium of my youth. By the way, the Indians are already close to 2 million tickets sold for 2002.
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I hadn't heard they sold that many tickets so far. How many did they have last year at this time?
If they've already sold that many, then I would guess they'll do fine attendance wise.
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I think the interesting thing will be how many tickets they sell for 2003 if this years squad doesn't perform well. Shapiro drastically altered the look of the Indians and I am curious to see if the fans are willing to go along for the entire ride. It is one thing to be a fan but it is another thing to go out and purchase tickets for the family especially if you are not satisfied with the product. One of the best things about all that has happened these past couple of months is that it sure gives us a lot to talk about. As I've said many times before everyone is entitled to an opinion. Wether it is a positive one or a negative one you need both for good discussion.
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It is pointless to predict how well the Tribe will do this season because the true fulcrum
player this upcoming season is Rickey G, a complete unknown commodity for a myriad of reasons.
If he can adjust to American League pitching and not let learning 2nd base defense interfere with his offense (a big if) and if he can hit .300, have an OBP of over .360-.375,....
AND, make it from first to third on a single, then there is hope.
If Rickey G. is absolutely mediocre offensively, I think we will lose a ton of one run games.
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Alex
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I think Omar will step up this year. The one good thing in dumping Robbie so early on is players like Omar will be extra motivated to make Robbie's loss not be so noticeable.
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Alex
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Very interesting idea, David Bell at second...hmmmm
Hopefully Rickey G will step in and hit .300 and I pray he can go second to home on a single, and 1st to third on a single (unless it's to left field)
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Alex
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Gotta keep taking your cheap shots at Guitterez don't ya Alex. No suprise since it will take yrs for you to get over your hero Robby leaving. As for David Bell no thanks, why would anyone with half a brain sign Bell and give up a first round draft pick?
Since the starting pitching will be better losing one run games because Robby baby isn't here is just another illusion of yours. Burba-Nagy-Wright will not be getting shelled like last year and if Finley does he will be gone.
I wonder how many one run games the 1985 Royals lost, being last in the league in runs scored kinda makes me curious as to how they could win a WS with no run support. Just thinkin out loud.
------------------BTW, I find it interesting that we have sold almost two million tickets after trading away two future Hall Of Famers, Looks like the fans are not as stupid as some of the doom and gloomers on this board. Shapiro said that the intelligent baseball fans would understand the moves he HAD to make. Where is the fall out from trading Robby baby? Hasn't effected ticket sales, HA! HA!
[This message has been edited by srg (edited January 03, 2002).]
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They don't have to give up a draft pick for Bell. He was offered arbitration, but then released after he accepted it. That makes him a unconditional free-agent.
You ask why anybody would want him, I say his stats are similar to Guttierez, but his position is 2B, and he has a little more power. Add to that, the fact that he would have come much cheaper (half the cost) as Rickey and it's a no-brainer.
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I have just scanned the postings, and once again I am amazed. I have some quick points:
1. The point of a baseball season is to attempt to win a World Series, not settle for a 88 win division title.
2. The Indians have, in aggregate, hurt themselves this year, the entire outfield & 2b position have been downgraded significantly. They will be worse, and are farther away from a WS than previous seasons.
3. Indians management will continue to cut costs as long as 2M + tix are sold before opening day. They have no incentive to improve, and will continue to snow fans with the illusion that div. titles + WS titles.
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I assume that since you have scanned the posts, that you also are aware of what Shapiro has said was their plan, since he became the GM.
That was to stay competitive while getting younger. No winning 85 to 88 games isn't their final goal - it's to win the WS. However, even you have to see that this team is old. If they wait any longer, then a true rebuilding will have to be done. That means dismantling the team and having to go through 2 or 3 losing seasons.
By doing it the way they are trying to do it, they will be competitive, and they are getting younger. Whether these moves will pan out in 2 or 3 years remains to be seen.
I do believe this team will battle for the division. Despite what you believe, anybody that gets that far has a chance, remember the Marlins. Do I believe they will win the WS next year? No!
The only teams who's payrolls are expected to go up significantly this year, are the Yankees and the Red Sox. The Red Sox moves however, will be in vain.
Most of the other teams are trying to cut payroll, and I applaud them for doing it. Even the Mets are keeping their payroll at where it was at last year, that's why they have decided not to sign Juan. They say they can only afford 1.5 million more on their payroll for this year.
Too bad Steinbrenner has no conscience and no concern about where major league baseball is headed. He's already proven he is a deceptive , lying scumbag who's been running his team unethically. But what the hell, the league won't challenge him, so why not?
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1. First of all, Alomar & Gonzalez are not old ball players, they are in their prime production years, the Indians did not want to pay for that performance. Same as Manny Ramirez.
2. They may be younger, but that does not mean these "prospects", especially those the Mets dumped on the Indians will ever reach the majors, let alone become All-Star caliber. The chances are they won't, and the Indians will be in free fall fairly shortly. The currenst prospects do not measure up to Giles, Sexson, Branyan, and other good cheap players the Tribe parted with.
3. G. Steinbrenner is purely about winning, something Dolan & crew have no interest in. They refuse to go the distance to bring WS to Cleveland. They are making strictly $$$$ decisions, exchanging great plyers for garbage prospects.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYC JewBoy:
1. First of all, Alomar & Gonzalez are not old ball players, they are in their prime production years
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, no. Prime production years, as anybody really familiar with baseball stats should know, are 25-29. These players are, to use the words of the ESPN "Hot Stove Heaters" report, "on the wrong side of the age curve". Just to show that I'm not simply defending everything Shapiro has done, that's also the reason why giving long-term deals to Lawton and Gutierrez may turn out to be a mistake.
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I suppose R. Johnson, R. Clemons, Schilling, Bernie Williams, Tino Martinez, Luis Gonzalez are all on the wrong side of the age curve. These are all major contributors to the WS champion D'Backs, and runner-up Yankees. Johnson & Clemons won the Cy Young this year.
I also suppose Barry Bonds is too old after having one of the greatest offensive season in the history of the game at 38.
Alomar & Gonzalez will continue to be top tier offensive & defensive playerf for a long time, and will probably play on a WS NY Mets team in the next two years. The Indians simply gave them away.
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To NYC Jewboy:
34 years old is near the tailend of most careers, and especially for middle infielders. Juan, is a great player who just happens to be a bit of a prima donna. He sits out nursing minor aches and pains, he played in 142 games last year and does have a chronic back problem. That's one of the reasons Shapiro decided not to go after him.
Do you have any thoughts on why Juan can't find some team to pay him what he should get, based on the season he had? Personally, I would have liked to have seen them sign him, but I do understand what they are attempting to do.
The thing that you seem to have missed, is that the trade didn't save them a penny. They signed Lawton for about the same money per year that Alomar was getting. So tell me where that was a cost cutting move.
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You don't know much about statistics, do you? Individual exceptions don't disprove general rules. Pick a representative group of players over 30, and if you're a betting man you're pretty certain to lose money if you bet that their aggregate production will be better next year than last.
Now, will Alomar continue to be a very good player for a few more years? I expect that he will. But the fact remains that, contrary to the nonsense about "peak production years" that you posted, he is past his prime and has a limited number of productive years left. Given that, plus the fact that he's a free agent after next year and is sure to demand a big raise, his market value simply was not as great as some of you have been fantasizing. Talk about "delusional"...
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1. Alomar & Gonzalez are not most players, the are HOF & All-Star caliber, like the afore mentioned D'backs & Yankees.
2. Suppose this does not save $$$$, then it is worse than fist imagined. The Indians are going for charcater over talent, a sin and a mistake. The best team the Indians had was '95, a team full of "bad seeds" like Belle, Murray, Martinez, Baerga. The were tougher, more talented, and won more than any character team I have ever seen. Again, the league is full of fundamental players and teams that win nothing, go nowhere, but are "good in the community". Garbage! The Indians are supposed to win games, if they want to like each other, feel good, and avoid controversy at the expense of striving to win games, take the summer off and go camping and golfing together. Get me some ballplayers that want to win.
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I don't disagree about the good citizen bull, but you still haven't addressed the issue. They need to get young. Last year the forum was all about how old this team was. Most everybody said this team was headed for trouble because of the age of the players. Omar, Robbie, Juan, and Kenny were specifically pointed out.
Now that Shapiro is trying to do something about it, he's being ripped apart. Apparently, we really don't know what we want. Do we want a younger aggressive team that will get better, or do we want a bunch of aging veterans that will win the division and go no farther?
I've said numerous times that I thought Shapiro could have gotten more than he did for Robbie, but I also was on record before this deal that if they could get some top prospects, then they should deal Robbie.
What will you say if guys like Bradley, Escobar and Traber realize their potential? How nice would it be if Bradley hit 280+, stole 30+ bases and gave us great defense in CF? How good would it be to see Escobar hit 30+ homers, bat 280+ and steal 25+ bases? I don't know if they will, but the potential is there for them to do just that, and maybe more.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYC JewBoy:
1. First of all, Alomar & Gonzalez are not old ball players, they are in their prime production years, the Indians did not want to pay for that performance. Same as Manny Ramirez.
2. They may be younger, but that does not mean these "prospects", especially those the Mets dumped on the Indians will ever reach the majors, let alone become All-Star caliber. The chances are they won't, and the Indians will be in free fall fairly shortly. The currenst prospects do not measure up to Giles, Sexson, Branyan, and other good cheap players the Tribe parted with.
3. G. Steinbrenner is purely about winning, something Dolan & crew have no interest in. They refuse to go the distance to bring WS to Cleveland. They are making strictly $$$$ decisions, exchanging great plyers for garbage prospects.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Giles-Sexson-Branyan? Umm dear believe me none of these three have the five tool package that Alex Escobar has. Giles up until his last year in Tripple A ever showed any power potential and he was twenty five yrs old and in his second year of AAA ball. Sexson and Branyan were for the most part considered all or nuthing power hitters although Sexson had a great glove. Passing judgement on a 23 year old kid that missed alot of time b/c of injury shows how stupid you really are. Billy Traber was one of the top college pitchers in 2000 but again i would not expect an invalid such as yourself to comprehend. Mike Bacsik is not a prospect, that pitcher of the year has nuthing to do with prospect status. Snyder was just a throw in.
This system has very little in everyday prospects b/c our brilliant GM gave them away for nuthing. Trading Alomar was the right thing to do since this aging team has come to the end of a run , Alomar was the only markrtable player we had to replenish our depleted farm system. JuanGone will be injury prone for the rest of his career, signing him to a big contract would have been pointless.
As far as Steinbrenner wanting to win well he has the unlimited resources to get whomever he wants both in the majors and in the foreign markets.
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SRG,
Alex Escobar is a horrid player. I saw him play this year live at Shea, and he is awful. So do not question my knowledge of him. Additionally, the stats that Giles, Branyan & Sexson put up this year will never be reached by Escobar. Do you not find it telling that Escobar, the five tool future hall of famer, could not crack an outfield manned by Shinjo, Agbayani, J. Payton, & Joe McEwing, the worst outfield ever assembled? The Mets know, and have known for years, that Escobar will not live up to the hype. The Indian got straight robbed by the Mets.
Additionally, I did not know that winning Double A & Triple A championships outstripped the need for the major league club to win WS titles. For all he supposed prospects the Indians landed, they most likely will never develop into HOF or All-Star players. The Indians continually allow proven All-Star & HOF talent to walk for the if-come of prospects. Who does that, loser ball clubs do.
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Your assessment of Escobar seems a little like sour grapes. I have never seen him play, but I hardly think you can call him a horrible player based on the few games that you've seen him play.
I have no clue whether he will be the player they hoped, but he already has done pretty much what Branyan has done. Branyan has hit about 235 over the last 2 years, so your statement that he won't do what Branyan has done is wrong.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYC JewBoy:
SRG,
Alex Escobar is a horrid player. I saw him play this year live at Shea, and he is awful. So do not question my knowledge of him. Additionally, the stats that Giles, Branyan & Sexson put up this year will never be reached by Escobar. Do you not find it telling that Escobar, the five tool future hall of famer, could not crack an outfield manned by Shinjo, Agbayani, J. Payton, & Joe McEwing, the worst outfield ever assembled? The Mets know, and have known for years, that Escobar will not live up to the hype. The Indian got straight robbed by the Mets.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Question is, Do I trust the judgement of a dummy fan like you or major league scouts who do it for a living? Answer is obvious.
quote:
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Tribe notes:
Tribe scouts rated Milton Bradley and Alex Escobar among the top five prospects in all of minor-league baseball. They believe both talented outfielders were ``rushed,'' Bradley to the big leagues, Escobar to Class AAA. They say that explains their high strikeout totals and they believe within two years, both should be starting in the outfield.
While they won't say so, the Indians privately believe it would be best for Escobar to open the season as the left fielder in Class AAA Buffalo. Escobar is only 23. He batted .267 with 15 HR and 52 RBI and 146 strikeouts in 397 at-bats at Class AAA Norfolk. The Indians say he runs well, throws well, and his power just needs time to develop.
Former Tribe scout Terry Francona followed Escobar for two weeks this summer and his report said Escobar would be an ``above average'' center fielder, but a ``gold glove'' in left or right.
The Indians confess that his strikeouts -- 430 in 1,445 pro at-bats -- are a concern, and that is the reason the Mets were willing to deal him despite his obvious physical gifts.
Escobar's best season was in 1997, when at 19, he batted .310 with 27 HR and 49 steals at Class A Capital City. But even then, he whiffed 133 times in 112 games.
When it comes to Escobar, keep in mind that most kids in his situation are only one year out of college. He has six pro seasons, and Latin players often need more time to bloom because of all the cultural adjustments.
Right now, the Tribe plans to start Russell Branyan in left field. Over three years, he has 550 major-league at-bats -- a full season -- and 37 homers! He also has 229 strikeouts. They want to find out what Branyan can do with somewhat regular duty, maybe 400 at-bats. They figure he may strike out 150 times, but also hit 35 homers.
Tribe scouts believe Bradley will give the Indians a Gold Glove-caliber center fielder. He runs nearly as well as Kenny Lofton in his prime, and throws better than Lofton. Bradley has never shown the ability to steal bases or hit like Lofton but he has hit .300 in four different minor-league seasons, and he'll be only 24 in April.
The Indians traded pitching prospect Zach Day to Montreal for Bradley. At Class AAA Ottawa, he struggled, allowing 41 hits in 33 innings with a 6.34 ERA.
Billy Traber, the pitcher acquired from the Mets in the Robbie Alomar trade, will probably begin at Class AA Akron. Last year was the lefty's first as a pro, and he pitched all the way from Class A to Class AAA. His combined record was 10-8 with a 3.66 ERA. A lefty with a 90-mph fastball, a sharp, hard breaking ball and a developing change-up is always considered a strong prospect.
The other prospect in the Alomar deal is Earl Snyder, who has hit at least 25 homers in his past three seasons. He's a right-handed first baseman expected to start at Class AAA Buffalo. He's 25, and the Tribe sees him in time as a solid hitter coming off a big-league bench.
Part of the reason the Indians have decided to start Danys Baez is because the Cuban right-hander is convinced that is his best role. Baez was a starter until last season, when he switched to relief and was outstanding in the middle innings.
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Wrong, Russel has stuck on a major league club for more than five minutes, and has seen a steady diet of major league pitching, Escobar has not. Additionally, Escobar barely hit minor league pitching this year, which Branyan destroyed over his minor league career. Again, Bye, do not question my knowledge.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYC JewBoy:
Wrong, Russel has stuck on a major league club for more than five minutes, and has seen a steady diet of major league pitching, Escobar has not. Additionally, Escobar barely hit minor league pitching this year, which Branyan destroyed over his minor league career. Again, Bye, do not question my knowledge.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have knowledge? http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Branyan destroyed minor League pitching huh?
Yea, to the tune of a career minor League average of .251. Try again son.
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Just because the Indians PR department says we have prospects, does not make it so. Do I really have to repeat the list of prospects that have delivered nothing to the Major League squad (Tim Drew, Jarett Wright, etc.)The Indians have no choice but to tell its customers that help is on the way, be patient, and all the other PR hack strategies employed by professional spinmeisters. Its all a house of cards.
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I just have to question it again. Do you realize that Branyan struggled his last 2 stints at 3A. More so than Escobar. That's exactly right sir. Branyan was barely hitting 250 in the minors his last 2 times there. Branyan is also 26 or 27 years old. Escobar is 23.
Right now, Escobar's numbers in the minors surpasses Branyan's. Branyan distinguished himself as a prospect in single a ball by pounding out 40+ homers. He never duplicated that in 2A or 3A.
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I just have to question it again. Do you realize that Branyan struggled his last 2 stints at 3A. More so than Escobar. That's exactly right sir. Branyan was barely hitting 250 in the minors his last 2 times there. Branyan is also 26 or 27 years old. Escobar is 23.
Right now, Escobar's numbers in the minors surpasses Branyan's. Branyan distinguished himself as a prospect in single a ball by pounding out 40+ homers. He never duplicated that in 2A or 3A. What's more, Branyan is still striking out at about the same rate as Escobar despite being 3 to 4 years older.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYC JewBoy:
Just because the Indians PR department says we have prospects, does not make it so. Do I really have to repeat the list of prospects that have delivered nothing to the Major League squad (Tim Drew, Jarett Wright, etc.)The Indians have no choice but to tell its customers that help is on the way, be patient, and all the other PR hack strategies employed by professional spinmeisters. Its all a house of cards.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Umm, Terry Francona along with Ex Tribe senior scout Tom Giordano both work with the Texas Rangers, they were the point men who followed Escobar last summer. I hate too keep correcting you but you are making it to easy.
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