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Before I rant, I love Chuck Nagy, the guy has been there for this organization but c'mon already he is done. Of course he will not bow out because he is making crazy money. So some might ask why get rid of him we are paying him anyway?? The answer is because he cannot get people out, he gets hammered! Even if he is pitching from behind, you might as well just give the game away, no chance for qa comeback becaus ehe will get killed. Why not give a younger pitcher a shot in the pen or even keep a young talented bench player. Who cares about the money its gone whether you keep him or not. Chuck thank you for the great years but please Shapiro sack up and show this guy the door
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viper
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You can't just release a guy who has a guaranteed contract without any liability. You will still have to pay him. The insurance kicks in only when it's a medical fact that he can't pitch. Not being able to get a guy out is not medical proof that a guy can't pitch. They could DL him but it offers no help because they'd still have to pay him. So the Indians really have no choice. They have to keep Nagy because they will be paying his salary this year. You can put all this on Nagy if it makes you feel better but there are some guaranteed contracts on this team that are far more injurious to the club's ability to make moves than Nagy's contract. I'm not sure who exactly you think is missing an opportunity to pitch for this team because Nagy is there. If you've got a problem with him today you'll have a problem with him all year because he ain't going nowhere.
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Doc Oct, I don't think your response tracks with the original topic post.
Even if you have to pay him, release him.
The topic posts premise is that Nagy may cost us games.
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I responded to the specific points made in the post. The topic "Nagy" is general enough that I could provide his date of birth and be on topic.
I agree with you that Nagy may cost us games. So too will Guitterez, Finley, Cordero, Lawton, and 21 other guys. I'm sure Charlie Manuel and Mark Shapiro will also be responsible for some of the losses this team will have. That's baseball.
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[This message has been edited by Mr. October (edited March 26, 2002).]
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October, My point was who cares about the money. I know that no matter what we have to pay him, what I don't understand is why is that a deciding factor. Why do we keep him on the roster because we owe him. Do you really think that he can still be a good pitcher for this team?? I don't, he hasn't been able to consistently get guys out. Who would I rather see pitch you ask?? Somebody that might be a part of the future and can get guys out. Right now it looks like this team will carry 12 pitchers because they feel obligated to keep Nagy on the roster, so goodbye Karim Garcia and other potential talent. Let me reverse the question why do you want him on this roster??
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viper
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. October:
If you've got a problem with him today you'll have a problem with him all year because he ain't going nowhere.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The realistic option is to lure him into retirement by spreading the $6mil out over a few years. With money market rates below 2%, Charlie would go for it. He knows he's washed up as well as we do, but he is not about to throw the money away by simply retiring.
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Charlie may retire and forego the last year of his contract.
I know...I know...no one else would do that with a guaranteed $6 million for sitting in the dugout staring at the walls, but Nagy just might be the exception.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Genius:
He knows he's washed up as well as we do, but he is not about to throw the money away by simply retiring.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So much for Nagy being a great team guy. Six million is a lot of cache so I don't fault Chuck but it has to count against him and his great 'team' and Cleveland reputation.
He knows he's hurting the team & franchise (he knew it last year when he left the team). He just wants the Tribe to cut him
so he won't lose the money.
I've lost respect for Nagy ever since his ill-fated 3 Sept. starts in 2000.
It's obviuos Nagy does not buy into Shapiro's "team first" credo.
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[This message has been edited by *TR (edited March 27, 2002).]
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Why hasn't Nagy worked on developing a knuckleball?
Think about it -- it worked for Charlie Hough and Phil Niekro who were effective for years throwing no harder than 75 mph.
If Nagy were serious about helping tyhe team, he would have worked on a knuckler with Niekro during the off season, instead of stubbornly trying to throw his "fastball" and his "curve".
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Genius:
The realistic option is to lure him into retirement by spreading the $6mil out over a few years. With money market rates below 2%, Charlie would go for it. He knows he's washed up as well as we do, but he is not about to throw the money away by simply retiring.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He's already hinted in public that he would be receptive to some kind of buyout. He got a pretty frosty response from Shapiro along the lines of "he never told me about that". Wanna bet Dolan has already vetoed the idea? My belief is that Dolan has decreed that he has to be either on the roster if the team is paying him or on the DL so the insurance can pay, but he's d*mned if he'll pay Nagy for not playing. That would be in character for this ownership- the only reason Cordero is on the roster is that Dolan has to pay him.
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viper - I want Nagy on this team because he's got guts, integrity and a winning attitude. Why should Nagy take heat for not being a "team" guy? How about Dolan taking some heat for not "sacrificing" Nagy's salary so a more competitive guy can be on the roster? Isn't that what a "team" player would do? Nagy didn't draw up his contract the Indians brass did. Nagy didn't force them into the terms he agreed to he just signed his name. Now the contract paralysis this team has is Nagy's fault? What about Wohlers, Finley, Cordero, Wright and all the other contract albatross's around this team's neck? Finally, I'll judge Charlie Nagy on his whole career not the last 2 years.
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October- I got no problem with Nagy getting his money, you're right it isn't his fault. I love Nagy for his guts, his attitude, his work ethic but the fact of the matter is he is NOT productive anymore, there is nobody that can argue that. Wright still has hope, Cordero can somewhat hit, Finley can get guys out, Nagy isn't going to get any better than bad. You're right management should buy out his contract and ask him to be on staff or coach. My point is the guy can't pitch anymore but becuase we owe him money and he has a good history we are going to roll his 8+ ERA on out there and look stupid doing it when maybe a young pitcher can develop in a non-pressure role. That is all I'm saying, I'm sick of hearing how great Chuck is, no doubt, but it comes down to talent and unfortunately he just isn't healthy and never will be again
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viper
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A classy guy would admit he can't perform and won't be able to earn his contract. He would retire. See Mark McGwire.
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I was with you until the part about being sick of hearing how great Chuck is. Every Cleveland Indian fan will forever be in Nagy's debt for his contributions to this team. If it means losing some games this year so be it. Nagy won't cost them the playoffs and he won't get them to the playoffs. He's going out the same way he came in. Only now he's the one who's lost a step not the rest of the team. Show equal contempt for management and you'll gain some credibility with me.
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I certainly owe gratitude to Chuck-o but c'mon we have given him every opportunity to prove he can still pitch. He had all of last year and all of spring training and has not showed a sign of getting people out. Is he going to cost us the playoffs this year, NO I don't think so but where a young guy could be developing in the majors he is potentially holding up that spot because we owe it to him??? He is getting paid six million dollars for nothing, granted he was underpaid for several years, so I have no problem with the money he's due. I have a problem with us holding a roster spot for him. This is a business cut the roster spot, pay him his money, and offer him a front office position or a coaching position. They could still do this classy and benefit the club.
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viper
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mr. October:
Nagy won't cost them the playoffs and he won't get them to the playoffs.
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Actually he already cost us the play-offs once. Nagy's 3 September starts (and losses) in 2000 contributed to the Tribe missing the post-season by one game. If Nagy had 'fessed up at the time to how much pain his arm was causing him, it is likely the Tribe would have won at least of those gameswith someone else on the mound and made the post-season.
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Out of 162 games Nagy's 3 September starts cost us the playoffs? All-righty then. Clearly there are some Indians fan who believe Charlie Nagy is the anti-Christ.
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Charlie Nagy needs to be judged on what he does now not what he did 10 years ago. Right now he is garbage and should be sent packing! Go home Charlie you **** ! Show some class by retiring!
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mr. October:
Out of 162 games Nagy's 3 September starts cost us the playoffs? All-righty then. Clearly there are some Indians fan who believe Charlie Nagy is the anti-Christ.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
*TR is right on that one. We missed by one game and Charlie blew three games when he should have told management he was not able to go. I still like him, though. I would like him a lot better in retirement.
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*TR,
it is true that Nagy lost those three games in 2000 and we missed the playoffs by one game. However, if you remember, that is the year that we ended up using a ML record number of pitchers that season. IN other words, saying that Nagy was the reason is not completely accurate. Anyone of the stiffs that would have been used in his place instead had just as good a chance at losing any of those three games. Remember we got so desperate we had to trade Sexson for Bere and Woodard?
