To All The Dumbasses who don't think we can win...

To all the dumbasses who don't think we can win this year....

We are 2-22 when trailing after 6 innings.

When either tied or leading after six, our record is
22-5 ....!!!!

We currently have had something like 20 games in a row where our starting pitching has gotten us to at least the sixth inning. This means our pitching is decent.

Now, what better way to ensure that we are winning after 6 innings then by getting a second table-setter to hit behind Omar in the two spot. Luis Castillo is the perfect Candidate.

It's soooooooo obvious that a second table-setter would help ensure we have 2-4 runs by the end of the sixth, and in many cases, that would be enough to either be tied or have the lead.

Again, remember, our starting pitching has gotten to the sixth inning 20 consecutive games. They don't get to pitch into the sixth inning if they are pitching poorly.

Remember, we are 22-5 when tied or leading after six innings.

We are one table-setter away from being a real contender.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 30, 2002 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Alex ]</font>

Hardly a fact. The fact is that we have been limiting punchless offenses, for the most part in the Tigers, Royals, Orioles,etc. The hard part of the schedule is coming, our pitching won't take a nose dive but it will be a tougher test for these young guys, who didn't fair that great against the likes of the Twins and White Sox. Alex, I think you're right that we need a table setter and Castillo would help with speed also. I think in the long run we still need a run producer, Thome, Fryman, and Burks aren't bad, but they are not a #4 hitter. If you could fill those two holes, I think you're much closer, I just don't think we have the resources to get it.

Punchless opponants or not: the last 6 games we're 4-2 with a 1.70 ERA. I don't have any illusions about winning anything this year, but we're not that far away. A few more bats and we're there, folks. If Bradley and Escobar hit even .270 with a little pop, and we get a 3rd baseman with similar numbers, next year could be interesting.

Teacher-You're right pitching has been great, I'm just a little bit relunctant to say we are there on the pitching. You're right a couple of bats could change this team and for me that means two big parts a lead off hitter ( catalyst w/ speed) and a run producer. This team has neither right now. I don't believe we can accomplish this thru a trade, I wouldn't move Colon it would have to blow management away, but I wouldn't want him in the AL if I could help it. I could care lees if we lose Thome in a trade. I just think our best bet is to deal Thome(if he will let us) and Finley for some goo dprospects, than try to find some free agent hitters in the offseason. The bullpen is a little bit shaky, Shuey has been solid, riske will get better but Shapiro made a terrible move with Wohlers. Bottom line is Shapiro needs to do a better job of finding some good talent

Jim Thome is on pace to drive in over a hundred runs...

Ellis burks and Travis Fryman are on pace to drive in 80 runs.

Lawton is slowly having a decent year between runs scored, RBI's, home-runs and OBP.

This is without any kind of help from the two spot (when Omar is in the one spot)

Fix the two spot by getting Luis Castillo from the Marlins, and watch this team respond.

One guy with 100rbi's isn't going to cut it, I don't know the number but my guess is Thome's numbers with runners in scoring position isn't that great. You're right we need a table setter but guys are in scoring position and nobody is knocking these guys in,are average with runners in scoring position is horrible. Granted Escobar and Bradley replacing Branyan in the OF will help but we are still missing a big bat. Thome is not bad he just strikes out too much with runners in scoring position.

The added bonus of two table-setters at the top of the line-up is they tend to force the pitcher to throw more fastballs to prevent stolen bases.

The more fastballs the opposing pitcher throws, the better our power hitters do.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 30, 2002 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Alex ]</font>

Alexx you qualify as this biggest DumbA$$ on any Tribe Forum other than Swanny!

The dilemma I see is that next year we could be without
Thome and Colon.

We may be in a maintenance mode next year, trying to maintain whatever we do this year may be the best we can expect next year.

That's why it's important this year to have as good a year as possible, and that is as it should be.

My definition of a table-setter includes having speed. That's why Ricky G was a bad choice overall. His defense is OK, but overall, there is very little about him offensively that I like.

Unless he were a three-hundred hitter. Which is difficult for him to do because he has no speed or power.

Demand Excellence this year. I fear that the one position that can stand to be improved the most, 2nd base, is not going to change because of Ricky's three year contract...and that may lead to dwindling fan attendance.

The only hope I can find is as follows.

Almost all our games our close. I have a feeling that IF we got to the playoffs that the starting pitching would ensure some close games.

The test will be the tough part of the schedule that's coming up now.

I agree with Alex that 1-2 more hitters could change things.

My lingering worry is the back end of the bullpen. Wickman isn't fit and Wohlers cant hold a lead to save his life.

Dont accuse me of being hopelessly optimistic. I am talking about possibilities rather than probabilities. The games coming up against the good teams are crucial.

SRG, I was quite surprised at how confident you were in the Ricky G pick-up. It really was over the top.

SWhiney,

I cautioned a tempering of enthusiasm after the 11-1 start. You won't find me claiming that the tribe is going anywhere this year. I never have.

Regarding the 2004 lineup: I posted a projected team on another thread, I guess you missed it. As usual.

Regarding your being right when most here were wrong about this year's team: you arrogant jerk. Everyone knew this year's tribe wasn't up to the level of the past few years, you have no special insight there. And regarding your challenge to find a quote of yours that was in error: Trust me, spending my time looking up past Swhiney posts is not in today's "to do" list. Anyway, yours is a hollow challenge in light of the fact that all posts prior to 4-29 or whatever are gone. In any case, you whined incessantly about not signing Alomar and Gonzalez. And don't ask why i'm bringing this up now (as you have elsewhere) you're the one that brought up past posts.

You are pretty funny pal. The fact is almost every statement I have made about the Tribe has come to true. The one that I was really wrong about was my prediction of 78 wins. That is going to be a stretch. If you think you are so smart why don't you bring up all of my old posts and try to discredit what I have said. I was calling this downward spiral long before most others, and the fact that many on here predicted 87-90 wins truly shows who the dumbasses are!

OK, call me a dumbass.
Since April 16, we are 3-20 AGAINST THE CENTRAL!
Luis Castillo ain't gonna fix that.
If Charlie and Eddie stick around we will be **** lucky to stay out of the basement.

Compared to some of the other moronic posters here and on other forums you are far from a dumbass.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
...you are far from a dumbass. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>


No surprise there SWhiney; aren't you in Canada?

Interesting Las Vegas odds:

http://www.nss.net/Futures/MLBFut.html

As of May 28, World Sports Exchange odds to win the WS: Minnesota = 40-1, Tribe = 25-1, WSox = 20-1. We're the same as the Dodgers. Reds are 30-1.

Hey Shapiro lover how are you doing? I am going to remember your "right on track" quote for a very long time especially come 2004. How you can watch this team play every night and then come up with that is truly remarkable. You can be immature and call me all the names you want but your posts are becoming more hilarious by the minute. You should have held back instead of shooting your mouth off after the 11-1 start. I think you spoke a little to soon pal. We are right on track for the bottom of the weakest division in baseball. By the way I am still waiting for the lineup from the 2004 championship winning team. Where is it? I'm waiting.

teacher, what is this proposed lineup is it realistic, or do you have them aquiring Rolen and Giambi, just curious. I agree this team has pitching but the offensive talent lacks. I was for signing Gonzalez and keeping Alomar. I don't think you can necessairly look at Gonzalez(hurt) and Alomar (slow start) and say that would have happened here. Unlike most I thought keeping this offense intact and giving our young pitchers a chance might have put us into a decent spot to compete. I understand the economics though but I think Sahpiro has done a horrible job with his limited resources. Money has been wasted on overpaying for Guitterez, Wohlers, buying into the Brady experiment, and perhaps even signing Lawton to a long term deal (time will still tell on this one). That is why I'm curious to see a propsed offense, you seem to be a big Shapiro supporter and that's why I wonder with his moves this year, how you feel this team is on the right track?

What a great post. Let's see if teacher comes up with an answer. Once again teacher nowhere did I claim that Gonzalez MUST be signed at ANY COST. Alomar was traded away for a less than stellar package and Shapiro deemed Ricky G an adequate replacement. That is the problem. If you find my posts so stupid don't respond. The fact that you posted the words "right on track" after this dismal start to the season shows how and unrealistic you are. How long have you been following the game of baseball? Since you start all your posts by calling me Swhiney tells me you are about 12 years old or one very immature adult. In case you haven't noticed the offense is horrible and the farm system is far from loaded with position players a year or two away from the majors. One more thing, just look at the Tribe's record against Central Division opponents this season and that is all you need to know about this years team. It should be crystal clear that when you are getting beat easily by other teams in the weakest division in baseball there is a serious problem. I love the fact that I get under your skin teacher because you certainly don't get under mine. Your posts are hilarious and I find them quite entertaining. Keep them coming.

teacher, you can set how far back you want posts from in either your "profile" or you can set it from the front page.

You have numerous choices, including 60 days, 100 days, 1 year, or all posts.

Swanny, for one thing most people recognize you for what you are: A Moron and a Troll! Anything that you are correct on is a blind squirrel finding an acorn. You cry-***** -moan that Dolan is cheap-Shapiro is stupid shows what a fvkin invalid that you are pss-bag. You cry 24/7 on the moron board (Cleve-Live) about this team's direction under Shapiro because of moves he made to keep the team competive. An A$$ like yourself would never had stood for a total rebuilding plan because you believe that we would have won with last yrs one and out 100 mill roster! You said all we had to do was retool or add another pitcher, i do believe Aaron Sele was the pitcher you had in mind. How the **** do you retool dumbfuck when your farm system has nuthing to trade since Hart raped this farm system of upper level prospects? Oh yes, Dolan is cheap,. he should have aquired Sele to put us over the Top [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img] The fact that you agree with another moron named NYJEW-Dick-bag shows what an invalid that you are MORON!

What I find most interesting about this exchange is that it is permissable to use "dumbfuck" on Hostboard, but not "h-e-l-l".

Hey srg, thanks for the kind words. I suppose you agree with the teacher that this team is "right on track." As for Sele. I suggested he might fit in nicely in the rotation. Big deal. There are others on this board who are constantly coming up with trade scenarios on a daily basis. Every one of us has probably made some good trade suggestions and some bad ones. Once again big deal. The problem I have with many other posters are their totally unrealistic posts. Like "Can this team win 90 games?" or "Clinching a playoff spot by Memorial Day." Like I said I can't find too many of my previous posts that are totally unrealistic or untrue. For God sake I get ripped when I make comments about Ricky G. The guy is awful and Shapiro gave him a multi-year deal before he ever watched him play a game in a Tribe uniform. This team is in poor hands with Shapiro pulling the strings. MARK MY WORDS!!!

This team can still win 90 games. I too hated the Ricky G signing and frankly that one move alone has made a profound difference on this team.

Fact- Ricky G was not an astute signing.

Fact- This team can still win the AL Central

People (well epecially fanhome) want to whine that 'winning the AL Central means nothing, they aren't going beyond that'. Well if we get to the post-season and Colon is pitching as he has now, we can win in the post-season. But you have to get there first. And winning will mean a lot to Tribe revenues and the future also. I'm all for still playing to win this division, the ChiSux and Twinkies just aren't that good. We can take them if we get this offense going. Maybe even if we can't!

I brought this up on Fanhome and of course Mikesopp didn't agree. If we actually managed to win this division would you not feel pretty comfortable going into the playoffs with this staff? I would. The Indians almost won it all in 1997 and I certainly like this pitching staff better. However there is no way we are going to win the Central without adding a bat or 2 somewhere along the way. Shapiro depleted the offense and really didn't do a very good job of replacing even half of that production.

Swanny, since i think you are an invalid and a Troll i shouldn't respond but in any event i will judge Shapiro by the last three drafts including next weeks, his deal of Day for Bradley, the return we get on Traber-Escobar, What we get for Colon-Thome (If they are dealt), his move of Baez to the rotation, his insistence of adding Drese to the 40 man roster after 2000 not his signing of Filler type players in Guitterz-Woehlers-Anderson.

SRG,

I would add Shapiro's decision to pass on Gonzo to the list.

Shapiro has been a mixed bag. Certainly he 'squandered' about 19 million dollars on Gutierrez, Wohlers, and Anderson. Not very good for a franchise that is crying about economics.

Last years draft is looking very good, especially with the signing of draft & follow Sean Smith, which more than makes up for not signing Alan Horne at an inflated price. Of course we could have signed Horne with $$$ we wasted on Anderson. I have no idea why you think Shapiro should get credit for the last 3 years of drafting. His input in drafts before 2001 was minimal.

Always amused by those who want to throw Day/Bradley onto Shapiro's ledger. It's John Hart's deal plain and simple. Shapiro's input was exactly wheat it should have been, he was the assistant GM. He recomended it? Great! That's what assistant GM's do. But it still is Hart's deal.

Baez as a starter is looking excellent. His confidence in Drese is looking stellar. Jury is still out on the Alomar trade, though regardless I still think Alomar at the time was worth more than we received and other trade partners were not explored.

I think Shapiro was given bad advice by those around him in the signing Wohlers, Gutierrez, and Anderson. I want to believe he has learned fron these mistakes and they will not be repeated.

Let's not forget Shapiro is only 35. He was probably given this job a little too soon. He has to learn some things on the fly. An Ivy League education really does nothing for player evaluation and scouting. Shapiro is very short on field experience of playing, coaching, and scouting the game. Course so are most of us and that doesn't stop us from having strong opinions.
Shapiro is a smart individual and I'm hoping a quick study. Here's to rooting for his success.

Go Tribe!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 01, 2002 02:02 PM: Message edited by: *TR ]</font>

Any player's value "at the time" is his expected future performance, not his past. Based on his performance since the trade, Alomar's value was not really very high.

You know what's funny. I get accused of not being able to get over the Alomar deal but I'm the one who very rarely brings it up. I bring up Ricky G alot and many associate him with Alomar because he is playing his position. Alomar seems to be a constant in many threads so I throw in my input. As I've said many, many times, let's move past the Alomar trade. He's not an Indian anymore. And teacher, once and for all I NEVER HAVE SAID THAT GONZALEZ HAD TO BE SIGNED AT ANY COST. I simply suggested that something could be worked out with Juan. In retrospect I would say it was a good thing the Indians didn't sign him. I just think that somewhere along the line Shapiro should have been able to figure out that he would have to add someone to this lineup to create some offense. If he could have figured that out we could still win the Central and nobody can convince me that this team could not do some damage in the playoffs with the pitching staff as it is right now.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by the teacher:
Any player's value "at the time" is his expected future performance, not his past. Based on his performance since the trade, Alomar's value was not really very high.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Players 'value at the time' is what the market for his services would bear. I still feel Alomar was dealt 'under market value'.

Post trade performance is irrelevant to what the players market value was at the time. Sure, how the player performs after the deal will eventually tell us whether it was good deal or not. But it doesn't address 'did we get all we could have for that player' when the deal was made.

I think Shapiro's inexperience showed in the Alomar deal. When this deal was announced several GM's expressed surprise and were unaware Alomar was still on the market. Other trading partners were not fully explored and a more saavy GM would have waited and played the Mets off the Yankees more. There are those who think the Yankees eventually would have caved and included Soriano ia deal for Alomar just to keep him from going to the Mets. Who knows? There was nothing pressing Shapiro to make the deal at the mooment he did. He probably should have waited a little longer to pull the trigger. Inexperience.

As much as I hated the trade when it happened, I was relived that Lawton was part of it, because one of my first comments was I think Lawton will put up numbers close enough to what Robbie will do in 2002.

Shapiro felt that Lawton could put up a similar contribution to Robbie...not necessarily what Robbie did in 2001, but what Robbie would do in 2002.

That means all of those prospects turn the deal in our favor.

The biggest mistake made by Shapiro, and the only one that truly stands out, is Ricky G. I think Shapiro felt he had to find a replacement for Robbie, immediately, or it would have made the trade look like it was made for vindictive reasons rather to help the tribe for the future.

If you plug Luis Castillo into the second base spot, and assuming he can adapt to american league pitching, we would become the favorite to win the division, and anything goes in the playoffs.

Our increase in attendance revenues would more then offset the Ricky G signing, and the team stays competitive even as it rebuilds, and who knows, maybe Thome decides to hang around because we didn't give up on this season.

Exactly,
I said that Lawton would put up similar offensive numbers as Alomar as well.
The thing is, what 2B could we have gotten on the FA market? Guttierez is not helping the team out a lot at the moment, but you cannot evaluate a GM's decision by looking at the signing in a vacuum, but in context with the rest of the available talent.
Also, the Day-Bradley trade was a Shapiro trade. You ask ANYONE in the organization you will know that Shapiro was the one with the last say in the deal, not Hart. Bradley was Shapiro's pet project.

I agree there wasn't much out there for second base, although someone did mention that Florida was shopping Luis Castillo last December. They posted it on this forum, but I have not been able to find the post.

But in now way does that justify a 3 year deal that is BACKLOADED for over 9 million for the final two years.

Johnny Mac, heck, even Dave Roberts could have been an option. Either somebody superb at second base, or somebody with decent speed who would be a base stealing threat.

I would have liked to see Eddie Murray deal with Pee Wee Reese. I believe the Indians players are taking more pitches than last year, and their strikeouts to walks ratio is not that bad.

Not having a second table-setter has hurt the power guys because they see less fastballs as a result. I can't fault Murray for that.

The two bag wasn't available any where in free agency but Alex is right signing him to a long contract was not necessary.

SRG-Why shouldn't Shapiro be judged on those three bad signings he just wasted money that wasn't necessary. There is no doubt he can draft, he has yet to show he has the wit to put together deals. I'm not saying he doesn't but he hasn't proved it yet. He got good players for Alomar but the fact is he probably could have got more. He didn't do a good job of shopping him around. Fine he can have the Day-Bradley Trade, I like Bradley but its not like Day was a dud either. I don't think that trade was a real blockbuster.

Thome is trying to prove me wrong as a #4 hitter, the guy is on fire. Alex-If Castillo could be had I don't see why we wouldn't go after him, but what is the price?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hawaii007
the Day-Bradley trade was a Shapiro trade. You ask ANYONE in the organization you will know that Shapiro was the one with the last say in the deal, not Hart. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

One significant person doesn't say that. John Hart.
And one fact is indisputable. John Hart was the GM. History will always show John Hart made this trade. The simple reason may be ...bacause he did!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bradley was Shapiro's pet project</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

[img]smile.gif[/img] Where do you get this stuff? [img]frown.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 03, 2002 10:54 AM: Message edited by: *TR ]</font>

TR,
Go and ask Hart, I believe Hart did say that to reporters that the Bradley-Day deal was Shapiros. Granted Day was not a dud, but it was a deal we pulled off trading from a position of strength.
Three bad signings, as in Anderson, Ricky, and Wohlers?
OK, let's go over all three...Anderson, minimal money, and who else were we going to get to play center for that much? For everyone who is flapping their gums about Garcia, he is in AAA right now for the Yankees, and they are looking to UPGRADE their right field spot, so obviously he isn't all that. He is hitting .279 by the way. That was in the PD today. Magruder was a blessing...but no one would have predicted he would be this good. He was hitting .271 at Buffalo when he got called up. We had no one in the farm system to play center either. The Cabrera shooting snowballed more then we originally thought, and Cabrera is nowhere near the player he was before. So yes, in a vacuum, the money on Anderson seems like a waste, but to accurately evaluate moves you have to look at what other options were there.
Wohlers was a signing that confused me when it was made, but it seems like the bullpen is struggeling in general, and again, who else could we have gotten to fill in as a middle guy? We thought that maybe the Buffalo bullpen might do the job, but some of their pitchers are inconsistent as well, so there wasn't any ready-made replacement. 2 million/year is really not that much in the bigger scheme of things either. Tell me a middle reliever they could have had on the open market for cheaper who is more effective? How much did Hart pay for VonPoppel?
Ricky signing seems bad. At the moment, he is playing below his expectations, and considering how Diaz seems to be turning his season around, and Thome as well, and Fryman to a smaller extent, RIcky still has a chance to make amends for his early season spiral.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">&lt;font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"&gt;Originally posted by srg:
TR, i gave you several E-mail responses from Pluto-Ingraham and Hoynes on Fanhome that proved Shapiro made that Bradley deal but of course you will not accept this so why bother?&lt;/font&gt;</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you call me dumb. If Hart was G.M. at the time of the trade then he was the one who made the trade. End of story. It does not matter if Shapiro had input, Hart was still the one who had to make the trade. What do you think? Shapiro walked into Hart's office and said "I just swung a deal."

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 04, 2002 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Swanny ]</font>

The problem with the Ricky G and Wohlers signings is that Shapiro signed and overpaid for these guys when nobody else was showing any interest. The fact of the matter is that we had equal talent to these guys in the minors. To me Johnny Mac is every bit as good as Ricky G but for much cheaper money. You can crow all you want about Ricky G last year but that year was not his norm. The guy is a decent player but we severly overpaid. Wohlers is a lost cause, the Yanks gave him a shot but he disappeared by the end of the year, next thing you know we pop up with a new deal. You're right in the scheme of thins the money isn't that big of a deal but yet it is because Shapiro is locked into a budget. That money he has tied up into Guitterez and Wohlers might be the 5 million we could have used to pull in a Rolen or top notch talent. It was a waste of moves that hopefully his carelessness will learn from.