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Any feedback from anyone to which they think is a better unit ???
I know that the Hondata unit is very popular here on the board - but I have not seen any comments about the AEM unit
Any and all comments are welcome ...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 11, 2002 05:04 PM: Message edited by: lcopas ]</font>
The Hondata seems like the best tuning route for the price but the AEM isn't too far behind price wise. The AEM however will offer you more all around from what I've read. It depends on what you want to do. It seems like the Hondata is the easiest way to get up and running quickly while the AEM still getting there with the base maps as you have to tune your setup still. I hope that kind of made sense [img]smile.gif[/img] . Hondata is definately a good option though. I'm going with the AEM unit in my Supra.
Guy with a turbo civic around here running the AEM. Seems like a good setup so far, does everything he needs.
I still run an FMU, so i guess im still in the dark on both [img]confused.gif[/img]
Get an AEM EMS unless you want to have to go somewhere and get a chip burnt everytime you make a change. Plus the Hondata is still a piggyback.
What is the best price ya'll have been able to find out there ?
Anyone have any good leads ?
I'll throw my $.02 in. Realize I don't have either, but was thinking the same paths as you. In the end, I'm a band-aid type.
For OBD II, the AEM seeems like a better choice on paper. You don't have to deal with the OBD I conversion for Hondata, and the the AEM functionality appears equal to or more than the 4B from Hondata. Total equipment cost is less than a OBD II 4B. Cost is probably comparable to a OBD II 2B but has much more functionalities. The downside to the AEM is being a guinea pig for lack of base maps and support currently and lack of tuners with experience.
For OBD I, Hondata seems to beat everything hands down due to the low cost, you're not really going to have to hack much up, and there seems to be quite a good deal of support, base maps that work and tuners with experience.
Happy shopping!
What about Link Engine Management Systems? They have stand alone units available and by comparison should out perform Hondata right? Anyone have any info regarding the Link EMS?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 94Accord:
Get an AEM EMS unless you want to have to go somewhere and get a chip burnt everytime you make a change. Plus the Hondata is still a piggyback.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here is what I know, based on experience (having tested and tuned many managment systems on many different makes of cars):
"Standalone Engine Managment": A microprocessor or discrete component based control unit that recieves all of its inputs directly from an engines sensors, calculates the necessary output requirements (on its own), and sends all of its outputs directly to the engines drivers (injectors, ignition module, VTEC, IAB, etc...). Standalone systems do NOT require any external components to recieve or send input or output signals, unless there are saleable options that can be added.
"Piggyback Engine Managment": A microprocessor or discrete component based control unit that modifys input signals to (or output signals from) a standalone engine managment system. In either case, a piggyback unit will not cause an engine to run on its own.
Now, I read the term "Hybrid" here in refrence to the Hondata system. That's fine for now. Just bear in mind that the Hondata box is not in the input/output stream and does not interpret or change the input or output signals. It does, however, provide the user ability to change parameters that directly affect the microprocessor calculations (IE fuel and ignition maps, among others). This leaves the ECU to run as a standalone unit.
The Hondata external box is connected to Denshikigens factory engineered IO port that originally allowed the Honda engineers to communicate with the *standalone* processor during program execution (for tuning purposes). Hondata played mix and match with the internal data map and uses this port only to protect the Hondata from being hacked. Call it standalone or call it hybrid.. I don't care. But call it inferior to any other standalone system for VTEC systems and you are a Fuc*ing RETARD.... PERIOD.
Go ahead (anyone) and name one other standalone system that allows you to map every ignition and fuel point for BOTH cam profiles at *every* RPM. You can't get that with the PMS, it isn't provided with the Haltech, and even most Motec don't deliver that kind of multicam support (at 5 times the price).
There is only one company (Honda) that has ever supplied the market with a proper engine managment for VTEC engines. Since then, only two companies (Hondata and Zdyne) have provided the market with a fully programmable version of that proper system. We have yet to see if the AEM unit stacks up.
test
Arturbo, are you sure that's not possible with the AEM? From my understanding you could do that but obviously this wouldn't be a simple task until you've done it once.
Also keep in mind that the AEM will do:
-Knock sensor control
-2 step rev limiter for launching
-functionality for NOS control built it (add fuel, change timing, etc)
-ability to adjust fuel/timings maps on the fly for varying conditions (i.e. your base maps you set can be modified when intake temps change, boost change, etc)
-have as many maps as you want and switch without having your laptop do it (put a button or switch on a dash with a digital display to change modes - low boost, high boost, valet, track)
-upgrades ignition spark duration if you wish
-can use wideband O2 sensors directly connected
-EGT can be used by the ECU to kick into a pre-programed cool down or limp mode if you run your car too hard
-user programmable inputs and outputs (like the map adjustments I mentioned...outputs for displaying a number of things...this is huge)
-can monitor fuel pressure in your logging to help troubleshoot
-built in turbo timer (maybe added value to turbo people since you don't need a 100+ dollar unit)
-full control over automatics (not that this is a huge thing for Honda folks)
-essentially unlimited programming for your needs..
I think most of these features are things that are above and beyond what people realize. I also know that some of these features require time to program and setup if you've never done this before but I don't think any stand alone with more and more functionality gets any easier when it's this new. Base maps and trick programs are already being produced for Supras and I'm sure it's going on with Honda stuff in general too. I'm still not saying Hondata isn't the best solution for the price when dialing in a SC'ed GSR but I don't agree with you Arturbo that the Hondata is on par with this EMS.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 12, 2002 03:49 PM: Message edited by: BurntGSR ]</font>
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 12, 2002 03:52 PM: Message edited by: BurntGSR ]</font>
My 2 cents:
I think comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.
Like has already been said, AEM is a standalone engine management system. Hondata lets you modify the system designed for your engine. You are probably best comparing AEM to Motec or its ilk.
The Hondata system is nice in that it allows you to modify an already mature management system, which takes into account barometric pressure, etc. Take a look at the circuitry on the Honda ECU, there is a lot going on there which is responsible for good gas mileage, reliability and drivability. A drawback I see in the Hondata system is everyone who has them fights with idle. An advantage is, you have a problem, you can call up and talk directly to the people responsible.
the whole issue with supporting VTEC is fuel management above and below the crossover point.
the honda ecu can vary the VTEC point based on load, but on a WOT run, on a given engine, the engine will activate VTEC at the same RPM (4400 rpm on my stock '00 GSR).
if you want to move around your VTEC point with the AEM system, i think its best to have completely separate fuel/timing maps for each VTEC crossover point you choose.
you can move the VTEC point around 'on the fly' with Hondata, but some hondata users arent happy with this cause you still have to go and compensate all your hi/lo maps for this change.
i think Hondata is best for people who want the stock VTEC point and just proper fuel/timing compensation for boost etc.
the AEM is MUCH more flexible, MUCH more programmable, and will likely be more difficult to set up.
make your decision based on how involved you want to get with engine management. both are viable options. I am anxious to see how convenient it is to program the AEM system. You have to program the AC compressor cycling if you still have AC etc.
Joe
I've never seen a Hondata work. But I have watched how EASILY my friend has gotten his built motor (9:1 CR b16) to run w/ 550cc injector. When he 1st got the AEM, he had hte stock injectors, but had the Vortech FMU. He plugged the AEM EMS in, pulled up the base map for a SI, car started right up and idled. Drove around for a week or so @ 7psi. No problems just had to lean it out a bit to adjust for the FMU. Installed the 550 injectors, took off the FMU, raised the boost to 13psi w/ a manual boost controller for now, and added the GM 3Bar map sensor. Car fired right up, once the played w/ the fuel for a few mins (literally) they drove the car around and it hits boost just fine. It traps 83mph in the 1/8 spinning the tires all the way through 1st, 2nd, and most of 3rd, w/ out any tuning on a dyno, just seat of the pants. Once he gets a wideband the AEM can actually tune itself. Just set it up rich, tell it what A/F reading you want and it will adjust the settings to attain that A/F ratio. The AEM EMS will also allow him to use his n20 kit as a spool up kit for when he runs raise gas and bumps the boost up to 22psi.
If anyone has any other questions about the AEM EMS i'll try and answer them.
Well on monday my car is getting a complete over haul, Hondata gasket, fluidyne raditor, water injection (alchol mix), back to 10psi, and the AEM EMS. I will let you know how easy or hard it is.
I think it depends all on the user of the systems...some people like easy stuff..some people like complex stuff...the person wanting a easy to tune not so complex box may go with the Hondata....a person like me thats a tech head will go with the EMS...there may be less "programs" already done out there...but I feel that the AEM system has more room to grow...there is alot of funtionality with the AEM unit...its just a matter of using it to its fullest...not just slapping it on there and hoping it works with the base "program"...you guys cant forget that these units are not for the "average" user...these are sophisticated units that have the abiliy to control alot of funtions...I think the complexity was lost when the units were introduced to the general consumer market...not just the high-end racers...its just like all the turbo's and SC units out there...you have some people that have major success with them...and then you have the dummies that blow there motor the first time out after they installed and then blame it on the unit not themselves...just remember these engine management units are very complex devices that needs lots of tuning...they are not plug and go like most people think
from doing a litle research I found that the AEM is harder to tune
Hey DennisGSR,
What do you find that lead you to that conclusion ?
Some points of clarification.
Start here anatomy of the OBD I ecu to find out some of the major advantages of the stock Honda ECU.
Then ask yourself:
1) Am I going to tune this myself,
2) Do I need to adjust every parameter
3) Is this a track only car
If so the Hondata system may not be for you (even though three of the 5 fastest NA Hondas in the world run Hondata systems, and the US landspeed record at 184 mph is held by 2l Hondata tuned Vortech supercharged Civic)
Feedback from our tuners experienced in tuning many EMS systems is that the Hondata system takes about 1/2 to 1/3 the time to tune. This is mainly due to the stock Honda base maps and easy to use software.
I am the first to say that writing chips is not the most elegant way of making changes, but for someone who has stage 4 and a chip programmer, tunes can be written for NA hondas for as little as $295 and for boosted Hondas $545. These tunes will run just as well as those tuned for a stage 4 and better than any EMS for the reasons listed in the link above. Not to mention way cheaper.
Only a small percentage of our customers but stage 4 systems, the vast majority of our systems are stage 2 and 3.
kannon : We are not aware of any outstanding idle issues since the idle software update last September. Can you please contact me about this
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 15, 2002 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Hondata ]</font>