what the world would be like without sin

After making my other post (on page 2 of the "lesbianism" thread) I got to thinking about what the world would be like without sin.

Some points I made were that there was

-no bad weather, no rain even

-no clothes (BUT they weren't needed, because we weren't supposed to have lustfull thoughts)

-no killing animals, because we did not need them for warmth or covering, and we did not eat any meat either (we ate from the garden and trees)

-no sickness, no death, everyone lives forever on earth

-no infertility, and no death, so there'd be lots and lots of people (obviously that would have worked out fine since it's God who thought of it, but you have to wonder how it would have worked, with the planet getting full and all?)

-no sin, so everyone lives in harmony and follows God's plans, so no wars, no criminals, etc.

-I'm not quite sure about this one, but doesn't the Bible say that God walked among them or something? So like God could have been on Erath, or maybe we atleast could have looked directly at him, instead of now where we can't see him?

-and snakes had legs. lol. i'm sort of kidding. I don't know what to think about that part of the Bible.

Can anyone think of other ways the Earth (and our lives)would have been different??????

Just thought it was an interesting thought....

Along the lines of how would all that multiplying work... I'm wondering how the no rain thing would work. Would God just keep creating fresh water to flow from the earth, but it wouldn't overflow the oceans? I guess it would really be the same problem as overpopulation.

Well my old Bible teacher said that dew rose up from the ground and that was where water came from...I assume it would eventually evaporate?...I haven't checked to see if its in the Bible or not but I guess it probably is, since that's where the Bible teacher was supposed to get his information lol.

I hope nobody thinks I am challenging God's plans or anything...I mean, I totally believe that this would have all worked out, because it was God's plan and it would have been perfect...I just wonder how, that's all. But even though I don't know HOW, I still believe in it.

You know what? I always thought that when God saw that Adam and Eve didn't listen to him, He must've been really mad, but I never thought of it from the view that part of why He was probably mad wasn't just because they didn't listen to Him- he was probably mad too that He'd made this whole universe and planet and everything on it, and then Adam and Eve made evryhting have to change. Like God had to change everyhting because the world couldn't be how He made it anymore. It couldn't be perfect once they'd let sin in, so He had to change it now. I would be mad if I'd spent time and work creating something and then somebody messed it up and I had to change the whole thing.
[img]frown.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2006 03:24 PM: Message edited by: StarTrekCaptain ]</font>

Interesting topic.

While the idea of a world without pain and loss is certainly an appealing one, I'm going to (excuse the pun) play devil's advocate, and say I'm not so sure that Eden would truly be a paradise.

If there is a "God," I think much of the genius of his/her creation lies in the creation of death, change, erosion, evolution, seasons, cycles of decomposition and regeneration. I'd prefer that s/he'd refrained from creating quite such abject horror when it comes to all the ways a mortal body can fall to pieces--but as a concept and operating system, death's actually not bad. And I am not at all sure I would want to live forever, anyway. (Ever read the Greek myth about Tithonus? It's pretty grim.)

Living in this "perfect" world also sounds like a really boring existence. We would pretty much have to say good-bye to all entertainment like books and movies, since you can't really have an interesting storyline without some sort of problem or conflict (and here I'm assuming that dramatizing "sin" would constitute a "sin" in itself, so it wouldn't be allowed.) We would no longer have any interesting conversations or debates, since we'd all have agreed on "God's way." People would no longer hold deep and diverse opinions and beliefs--there would only be unarguable facts. There would be no new ideas or discoveries to get excited about. There would be no incentive or drive for anyone to accomplish anything--hard work would lose all value. Since we'd have forever to live, there would be no reason to strive to make our lives matter, make our lives count. We would no longer have heroes, people who achieved things far beyond the normal human scope and made the world a better place. And of course, there's the big philosophical question: could we really understand and experience joy if we had no pain to compare it to?

Well, voice-of-reason, that's why God gave us free will. He wants us to be His friend but what's the point of forcing us? Of course He's sad when we don't want to, but He gave us that choice.

BUT...I have to disagree. I don't think the world would be "boring" I think it would be perfect. I mean, I like movies and books and all that too, but I'd rather have everybody know God and love Him. I'd much rather live in God's perfect world, only because of sin we can't.

Along the lines of your statement, do you not want to go to Heaven because it would be boring? By the way, just to clarify things, I'm NOT asking whether you BELIEVE in Heaven or **** (that's a whole nother topic)...but for the sake of argument let's just say they do exist, and the question I'm aksing is would you rather go to **** or Heaven, because even though perfect, Heaven might not be "interesting"? Just a question out of curiosity.

whoopsie, I wasn't thinking of H-E-double hockeysticks as being a bad word. LOL I just meant the place, like, as opposed to Heaven...not anything like swearing. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Interesting topic. Many many questions...

I think Revelations 21 and 22 say what the world will be like when it is without sin. This is, of course, after this world, a sinful one, has passed away.

I assume your question is more "What would the world be like if sin had never been involved at all?" This leads to "Would this be a good thing?"

Genesis tells what the world was like before sin... we all assume that the world would be the same as it was... thus...
1. there would be no pain during childbirth
2. animals would get along (no predator/prey)
3. snakes WOULD have legs
4. we would be ignorant as to good/evil (for we would not have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil)
5. There would be no clothes. "The man and whis wife were both naked, and the felt no shame." Genesis 2:25
6. God would talk directly to people.
7. There would be no emnity between people and snakes.
8. We would not have to toil for our food.
I am no expert on God's will (boy is that the truth!), so I really don't know. I'm not sure that a sinless world (one without Adam and Eve's original sin) would be a good thing or a bad thing. I'm not even sure a sinless world would be possible since we have free will...if not the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge, would there have been another sin?
I do know that we will return to a perfect, sinless world, and that will definately be a good thing. God is omniscient. His plans and His will are perfect and exactly what is best and what we need. Thus, since He is graciously giving us this sinless world (which has not come yet), it is going to be good... perfect... and we will get to drink form the river of life and eat from the tree of life... thus I must wonder... was this His plan all along?

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Originally posted by StarTrekCaptain:
Along the lines of your statement, do you not want to go to Heaven because it would be boring? By the way, just to clarify things, I'm NOT asking whether you BELIEVE in Heaven or **** (that's a whole nother topic)...but for the sake of argument let's just say they do exist, and the question I'm aksing is would you rather go to **** or Heaven, because even though perfect, Heaven might not be "interesting"? Just a question out of curiosity.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good question. I think Heaven would be horribly boring; yes, and I'd certainly have no desire to spend eternity there.

Besides, if fundamentalist Christianity is true, nearly every person I love and respect would also be going to H_ell (or they've already gone there).

But even I were "saved" and could gain admittance to Heaven, I don't think I'd be able to enjoy the eternal bliss knowing that meanwhile, all the world's virtuous Sikhs, Buddhists, nonbelievers, Muslims, Jews, etc.--good people overall, just not followers of the "right" faith--were frying away down in H_ell. Could you?

voice-of-reason, that's why we as Christians are supposed to try an reach non-believers...we know that God wants them too and so we try to bring them to God to save them from that fate...oh, but also, if its a child who dies and they're another religion, they'll go to heaven anyway because they're still under the age of innocence where God takes them anyway because they're little...that's what Protestants believe. I'm not sure about Catholics, but I assume that since they believe in infant baptism, then they do not believe in an age of innocence.

I know Christians are supposed to proselytize and evangelize and add to the flock?my question is, wouldn't you have any compassion for those people who are good and kind, but don't accept Christianity and therefore end up d_amned anyway?

If not, can you see how harsh, arrogant, selfish and smug that might seem to a nonChristian?

And furthermore, can you see how that might make a nonChristian not exactly eager to become one of you?

Part of my point, too, is that I think it would be a great tragedy to lose all the many, rich, beautiful religions and philosophies of our current world if we were to live in a "sin"-free Eden. Wouldn't you feel badly at all for all the nonChristians who'd have to lose their own deeply held beliefs and heritages to become one of God's submissive zombies? I find it totally repugnant to think that, if there's a God, s/he'd want his/her complex & wonderful creation, humankind, cheapened into a bunch of obsequious, "perfect," identical beings.

God graciously gave us free will. The point is that He didn't and doesn't want us to become those mindless zombies you were talking about. He wants us to make the right choice of our own free will.

As for compassion for the non-believers... I weep for those who do not believe. Literally. As that old song goes... "Some of those souls are so dear to me/ I can't bear to think what their fate will be/ and because of who You are/ the compassion that's You/ Oh Lord this must tear Your great Heart in two..." I fully and firmly believe this.

Do you think it's mean or wrong of God not to just let everybody in to Heaven, even though they're sinners? Truthfully, none of us deserve to go to Heaven... because of the original sin of Adam and Eve plus all the sins we each commit during our lifetimes. God was wonderful and gracious to send us His Son to save ALL of us... God wants everyone to be with Him in Heaven. That's why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to save each and every one of us. Now it's our turn. Do we choose to be with Him or not? To believe in Him or not? It's now OUR choice of our own free will whether or not we go to Heaven.
John 14:6.

So people can do all sorts of bad things, but as long as they believe in God they can go to heaven? Is there anything else that bans people from heaven?

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I find it totally repugnant to think that, if there's a God, s/he'd want his/her complex & wonderful creation, humankind, cheapened into a bunch of obsequious, "perfect," identical beings.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmmm...that does sound a bit...Aryan...doesn't it? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Good works do not get you into Heaven, but faith in Jesus Christ will make you want to do good works in His name and for His sake.
We all sin...but the truly saved are not going to go around killing people or something like that and then say "Well, it's ok, I'll just ask for forgiveness and I'll still get into Heaven." If a murderer were to truly repent of his or her sin, they would be saved, though.

"Aryan"? As in only white people or something. I'll have you know I'm proud to call some black people, Arabs, Indians, Asians, whites, Hispanics, and all the other races you can think of my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Bible says that people from EVERY NATION will be present when God calls us all home to the new Heaven after judgement day.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 23, 2006 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>

But wanting everyone to be pure and homogenous ("Aryan," if you will) in our *minds* is just as disturbing as wanting everyone to be pure and homogenous in our appearances. If not more disturbing.

This "wouldn't it be great if everybody were Christian" talk reminds me a LOT of white sentiments during the age of westward expansion and Manifest Destiny, i.e.: "wouldn't it be great if those Indians would just quit being savages and assimilate into our superior culture?" Presuming, smugly, that Native American cultures had no value of their own, so pffft, no great loss if they're destroyed.

John 14:6 There is only one way to get to Heaven and be with the Father, God.

And yes, wouldn't it be great if everyone were a true Christian?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 23, 2006 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>

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"Aryan"? As in only white people or something.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, as in the concept of the "supreme race" (or religion, in this case). People of other religions aren't given any more freedom to "sin" than we are. Who's to say that our concept of sin is any more on-the-mark than theirs?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 25, 2006 09:04 AM: Message edited by: kitschywoman ]</font>

It is not MY concept of sin, it's God's (as stated in the Bible, His Holy Word). He's always right. And His ways are always surperior.

I agree with Tra. people always point to us and say, "you want everyone to follow YOUR way" etc. but thats not true at all. it's not OUR way. We are just following what we believe is God's way.

As for heaven and **** , God doesn't SEND people to **** . He allows them the choice of what they want in their life.
But He's the one who runs Heaven...he said this is what you need to do to come in here with me, now it is up to you whether or not you want to do it...so, we are not being mean or saying other people won't be there...God gave you the choice to make for yourself.
We just try to get people to hear God's truth so nothing bad will happen to them when they die. We don't want people left out of heaven either.. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Without sin, as tra said, people would not have clothes. We would not feel shame at being nekkid.

[img]graemlins/rose.gif[/img] Mankind would not be as it is. We would be different in several ways. [img]graemlins/rose.gif[/img]


Without sin, we would live forever. We would feel no pain.

Without sin, there would be no need for consequences.

Without sin, our lives would be the same boring thing every day.

It's hard to think of a world without sin. Sin is a part of our daily lives, and I believe the Lord created it that way. He created it for us to sin and learn how to cope with our sins.

God created us to wonder about these things, too. If we didn't wonder, how would we know anything?

if God created sin then why do we have punishment from it?????? Its like a parent saying "child it okay for you to play in the road today, and do what ever you want" and when the child does these things as the parent has said it okay, the parent punishes the child. Maybe you were saying something else but some of what you are saying seems illogical when puttin it into a scenario of life and reasoning on it more. [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]

Another fascinating subject [img]smile.gif[/img]

Life w/o sin. Hmmm [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]

First of all, I don't see how it could be boring. Look around you. How much variety do you see in the world. Climates, colors, talents, personalities, species, languages - these were all things created by God, and those are just things on THIS planet! Just think of what's out there in the universe for us to explore?!! I could be quite happy for many years just traveling THIS planet, if I didn't have to work for food and shelter, which are consequences of sin. A God with that big of an imagination, that created us in His image, wouldn't expect us to do the same thing every day, nor all be the same! We may not be able to comprehend how the world would be without sin, because we've never experienced it, but it wouldn't be LESS of anything except evil, and pain. In fact, I'd be willing to bet it would actually be MORE of everthing else.

Second of all, I don't think we'd be cookie cutter people! Can you imagine a place where you could eat anything without getting poisoned or fat or sick? How about a place where you could lay down with a lion and scratch his soft belly fur like a kitten's, in complete safety? Picture walking all day without blisters or pain! Flying without the fear of crashing! Imagine a place where people wouldn't steal your stuff, start wars, or force you to pay taxes! Picture a place where you would KNOW what your gifts were, and be perfectly trained to USE them?!

I would LOVE to sing acapella in a professional choir, to study different forms of dance and practice them to perfection, and to spend time alone trying to describe the beauty of a sunset over the Rockies, or a sunrise over the Mediterranean! Maybe someday, in heaven, I'll get those chances! But those dreams don't belong to everyone, they belong to me. Yet, I'll bet that everyone has dreams like mine. Things that they could do that would make them feel complete...as though they were created for exactly these things! I've met people who liked their jobs like that, they are NOT boring, and they're NOT cookie cutter people!

I'd like to go into more, but I'm falling asleep! (Another symptom of the fallen world!)

Heaven, or a sinless earth boring? [img]redface.gif[/img] No way!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 29, 2006 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Lissiefan ]</font>

God din't create sin.
God did not say playing in the road was "okay" but then punish us for it later.

He wants us to do things His way, because its the right way, and it will end up best for us!!!

But he doesn't want us to be dumb robots lol and so He gave us free will. We can choose what we want to do.

We can choose what we want to do- BUT that doesn't mean there aren't right choices and wrong choices.

We can do what we want but there might be consequences to bad decisions. Just like there are rewards with good decisions.

If you don't believe God created sin...
how do you reconcile that with your belief that *nothing* in this world could possibly exist without being created by God? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Also, are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
The original Hebrew words in the most intriguing part of this verse: "bara ra." Translation: "I create evil." That is not a loose translation, or an interpretation--it's what the words literally mean. And it's the wording used in both the King James and Douay-Rheims versions:
"I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things."

You may have a modern version of the bible that sanitizes this to "I create calamity." Not that this changes the meaning all that much.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 31, 2006 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Voice-of-Reason ]</font>

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Originally posted by Voice-of-Reason:
If you don't believe God created sin...
how do you reconcile that with your belief that *nothing* in this world could possibly exist without being created by God? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Also, are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
The original Hebrew words in the most intriguing part of this verse: "bara ra." Translation: "I create evil." That is not a loose translation, or an interpretation--it's what the words literally mean. And it's the wording used in both the King James and Douay-Rheims versions:
"I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things."

You may have a modern version of the bible that sanitizes this to "I create calamity." Not that this changes the meaning all that much.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 31, 2006 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Voice-of-Reason ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">evil doesn't have to mean sin. the word evil can mean ANY number of things. evil has a VERY wide range of meanings.

I always thought that sins were defined by evil actions (thoughts, etc)

Go created us and gave us free will and we can choose what we want to do...God did not create sin but there is always ALWAYS free will. Lucifer chose to go against God, and then He tempted Eve in the form of the snake, and that's what started the downfall of Man.

Ok first off had Adam and Eve not taken a bite and the world was "perfect" we would not loose free will. Take a look at the angels. Lucifer was God's favorite angel, and he became too prideful (doesn't sound like everyone in heaven is a mindless zombie). Lucifer didn't fall alone. Then look in genisus where after the fall of man angels began to look at the daughters of man and reproduced with them creating the nephilium. It was their off spring and the fallen angels (the second fall) that wandered the earth prior to the flood. When God sent the flood, he cast those who had fallen into tarterous (sp?) and bound them in chains, who are waiting to be released to this day during armedgedon. Sounds like you can still be sassy in a perfect world. I believe that the fruit of the tree was the knowledge of the flesh, not of right and wrong. If Adam and Eve could not conseve of right and wrong how would they have known better than to eat the apple.

As for God and sin/evil. In the beginning there was ONLY God. Evil wasn't floating out there with him... it was part of him... no ladies hold your horses... I am not saying God is evil, only that he is capable of evil. See what we know to be evil are the choices and actions that God himself choses not to act upon. What God does is good. Everything God does is good, he sets our example of perfection. Now the choice to do evil is still his own and is instilled upon him. Emotions that we see as bad in ourselves, such as anger and jealousy God readily has. He even calls himself a jealous God, and becomes quite irked all throughout the bible (Check exodus when Moses has to reason with God to calm down). But God can keep his emotions in check... he is God after all... we can not. So we as imperfect creatures will go to an extreme which is sin and what we know as evil. Evil is simply actions that God finds undesirable but not foriegn to him. We know Jesus was tempted, but being God he was able to resist such temptations as they are undesirable to him. It is most complicated.

I also do not believe in a physical **** . I believe heaven is where ever God is. Not an actual place. It would be akin to being filled with joy completion etc, why **** is total isolation from God. Imagine if you will moments of despair, loneliness, and anguish you have had in this life time. It feels as if your soul is afire. Unquinchable flames. Without God that is all you have.

I told you guys I can go on and on!

So Nellie, are you saying that Adam and Eve and the apple was the only test? If they had passed it, then the world would be perfect, but we could still sin? Or is there no possibility of the world remaining perfect because someone will sin? Or is this not what you meant? You said the apple only showed Adam and Eve the sins of the flesh? So how does that account for all the other issues attributed to the fall of Eden like painful childbirth and illness and death and rain... Since you are putting forth the effort to share your views, I want to make sure I am understanding them.

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Originally posted by Miss_Nellie_OMalley:
Imagine if you will moments of despair, loneliness, and anguish you have had in this life time. It feels as if your soul is afire. Unquinchable flames. Without God that is all you have.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As a very happy, fulfilled nontheist with a rich and rewarding life, I must take issue with this statement.

God and religion may bring joy and fulfillment to *your* life, and I'm happy for you that they do. But there are several hundred thousand of us doing just fine without God, and it would be nice if believers would accept and respect that, instead of making arrogant statements about how our lives must be nothing but "despair, loneliness" and "unquinchable (sic) flames."

I do, however, like your ideas on the nature of heaven and h_ell, Miss Nellie O'Malley. They remind me of something the actress Butterfly McQueen (who played Prissy in the movie "Gone with the Wind," and was also an atheist) once said:

"They say the streets are going to be beautiful in heaven. I'm trying to make the streets beautiful here. When it's clean and beautiful, I think America is heaven. And some people are h_ell ."

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 25, 2006 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Voice-of-Reason ]</font>

Adam and Eve were not the only inhabitants of the plant... again I point you to the nephilium. In the garden there was only one thing that was forbidden and that was eating the fruit of the tree. As far as I know that was the only rule at that time. Man was not alone in its falls and as such has had plenty of help since then in finding fun ways to irk God.

As for my comment about feeling dispair... I in NO WAY was implying that those who do not share my religious belief wander the stress miserable. I was just saying that everyone EVERY HUMAN BEING has experienced loneliness, dispair, and anguish... even christians... And as we are still part of the world we have not been removed from God's presence. No one has, not even those who do not believe. Unlike fun historical pieces of art once we kick the bucket we don't all of a sudden find ourself in heaven or **** ... if you believe the bible that is (if you aren't a christian this is nothing but a beautiful piece of mythology).. instead according to the bible no one goes anywhere until judgement day.

I am very tolerant of other people's belief. I prefer to take a sit back approach and make sure I live my life in a christlike way... by example and not word. I do not like to force feed my theologies down other people's throat... My comments on here have been for those who are christians and wish to discuss their own religion.

See not even Jesus wasted his breath on those who would not listen.

I don't think the Bible says no one goes anywhere until Judgement Day. Can you cite chapter and verse?

I also don't believe God is capable of evil. He is good, and whatever God does is good and perfect and right. Evil was a corruption by men (and, yes, angels too) of the good thing (free will) God gave us. There is no higher thing above God. There is no higher thing that says "this is right and that is wrong" which God just happens to follow perfectly. God IS rightness and goodness and Love embodied. If He said that I should do something that society thinks is wrong or that anyone says is wrong, it is still right. Anger and jealousy, etc. is not wrong in God, it is good and right.

There will be a physical **** , though...the lake of burning sulpher mentioned in Revelations...
Heaven is also a physical place...the new Jerusalem in Revlations 21 and the place where the tree and river of the water of life run in Revelations 22. Yes, **** will be total separation from God, and that will be the worst part about it.

Where in the Bible does it mention this Tarterous place thing? Cite chapter and verse please.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 25, 2006 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>

No more sin would mean no more Martha Stuart, Donald Trump, or Will and Grace TV shows. Life would be perfect...
LOL

Sorry, I'm a sick person....Time to go see the nurse.

So, Nellie, all the other things people do now that are sins would not have been sins if Adam and Eve never ate the apple because that was the only sin at the time?

I tell you what.. stop asking me chapter and verse... you can just pick up the book of genisus and read it for yourself. Everything I have mentioned is there... and if you get to Abraham you've gone too far.

To each their own, I'm not here to convince or convert any one take my words as what you will. I will tell you one thing about evil and sin, man nor angels can not create anything that was not in God for they are created creatures. The creation will never surpass the creator...

As for the only sin, oh who knows... that was just a thought that came to me in passing... makes for interesting conversation... no? Nothing to support that claim actually ahahaha

Our Father in heaven is all knowing.....He knew that Adam and Eve would take from the Apple in the garden. If he didn't know, he would not have been a god.

Adam and Eve knew nothing of pain or of joy. The world was "prefect". Without the sins in the world or with out the pain we would never be happy to see a rainbow. We would never be happy to see the sun come out after the rains had darked the skies.

Food for thought.

God techniclaly IS capable of what we would clal evil. I never thought about it, but if we clal bad feelings evil, then God would be because he does get angry, he is a jealous God and says so Himself. So if we look at traits like that as being evil, then yes he is capable of it I guess. Hm, thats interesting. never thought about it before.

Yes, StarTrekCaptain, God does have those feelings, but in Him they are not bad. Only in us are they ever bad, for we corrupt things all the time. Plus we cannot control our anger, jealousy, etc and they can cause us to do bad things. Plus we have no right to have them. Does not God, Who is perfect, have a right to be angry at those who are not doing His will and jealous of the false "gods" others follow? We, on the other hand, have no right to be jealous, for we are not perfect and good and don't deserve any blessings.

Everything God does is perfect and right.

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Originally posted by Tra:
Yes, StarTrekCaptain, God does have those feelings, but in Him they are not bad. Everything God does is perfect and right.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But if God is perfect, and higher than human, shouldn't he be held to the same--or higher--standards as mere mortals? Shouldn't he at least follow his own commandments?

I don't think causing a wrathful flood and drowning the entire population of the world (including many innocent children, pregnant women, and unborn babies) is an admirable example of good emotional control. I think that's a deplorable way for anyone, human or god, to behave, regardless of how angry they are.

There's been a lot of talk on this board about Christians being viewed as "judgmental." However, my problem with fundamentalists is: in some aspects, they aren't judgmental *enough.* They consider too many things sacred, beyond questioning.