I started a thread on the "new" HOD forum about this Greek guy, with a link to his video page, but, it's not getting much traction. Go check out the thread "impressive polyrhytmic independence."
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I started a thread on the "new" HOD forum about this Greek guy, with a link to his video page, but, it's not getting much traction. Go check out the thread "impressive polyrhytmic independence."
Pretty cool
It sounds like he said that the pattern he played with his feet is 3 against 4, but its actually 3 against 2 or 6 against 4.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 18, 2006 10:08 PM: Message edited by: shockediddle ]</font>
I believe the lack of attention has to do with the fact that impressive polyrhytmic independence is to music what hairy women are to baseball.
They have nothing to do with each other.
Let Panos enjoy his lack of gigs, and continue with his polyrhythms in his garage. Just know that the worlds greatest musicians don't use true odd polyrhythmic independence to make music.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont know who is this Panos Guy, and I did not see him, but I must agree with what says Paraflam here.Quote:
Originally posted by Paraflam:
Just know that the worlds greatest musicians don't use true odd polyrhythmic independence to make music.
Are you saying polyrhythms are inherently unmusical or just that the world's greatest musicians don't use them? So drummer's who play phrases of 3's over a note base of fours, or vice versa, are now by edict - not making music? Tell that to Elvin, Trilok, Bill Stewart, Vinnie, Tony, Dave DiCenso, etc..
Henry, I agree about his independence. I've seen this clip before and it strikes me as very "Jimbo-esque".
Well I think he just means that polyrhythms on their own don't mean anything, and the fact that you have "Cool" polyrhythmic independance doesn't really have much musical significance.
I think what Paraflam means is that true musicians play music, sometimes by using polyrhythms.... But the polyrhythm independance (Like what this guy is supposedly demonstrating (I actually saw the video once a while ago and never re-looked at it this time)) itself doesn't mean anything. It is just the means to get to your end result -- good music.
I think the same goes for most chops related stuff... it seem like many players forget what chops are for. Is it to make music? or is it something you have just for the sake of having?
We must play what the music dictate us to do.
If it's some 3 against 2 at the right moment dictated by some interaction with musicians, fine.
But if it's : "ok I gonna play this 3 against 2 because it's cool and because I can do it..."
There is in my humble opinion no musical interest.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ummm! No, I think it has to do with the fact that HODers aren't going to the new site much. As for musical application, if you looked at the Montuno clip, Mr. Vassilopoulos demonstrates what he's all about - the drummer making the music himself with polyrhythms and electronics.Quote:
Originally posted by Paraflam:
I believe the lack of attention has to do with the fact that impressive polyrhytmic independence is to music what hairy women are to baseball.
They have nothing to do with each other.
Let Panos enjoy his lack of gigs, and continue with his polyrhythms in his garage. Just know that the worlds greatest musicians don't use true odd polyrhythmic independence to make music.
Frankly, I think a drummer who can replace an entire latin band and rhythm section with a drum kit and triggers has attained an enviable level of skill.
Sorry you didn't appreciate it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If that were only the case. This type of stuff always sounds thin to me.Quote:
Frankly, I think a drummer who can replace an entire latin band and rhythm section with a drum kit and triggers has attained an enviable level of skill.
It takes two hands to play timbales, congas and agogo bells.
Thanks, Henry.
He's obviously got some skill.
I'd like to hear him play to
some music. I'm sure he could
do fine.
There's something about playing
to someone elses tunes that shows
us something of our ears that we
can't see, when we are just exer-
cising our muscles.
[img]cool.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um...this is so incredibly wrong it's hilarious.Quote:
For instance, quantum physics is heady, and has philosophical and intellectual implications, but traditionally hasn't had a terrific number of practical applications.
wiki: quantum physics
wiki: quantum computing
I understood what Paraflam was saying. I just found his comment arrogant and a bit hostile if not outright troll-like.
I agree SpaceOtter. Drummers use layered polyrhythms all the time. Playing odd groupings over a Samba or Baion is a common example. Danny Carey's groove to Aenima is another. They're everywhere. It's up to the musician to find the appropriate situation to apply them. Without that ability, the musician has no choice. It's the easiest thing in the world to put down a hard earned skill.
Peace!
I don't see what the fuss is about. I think this guy is great and obviously trying to push some technical boundaries. But let's all instantly jump on the boat and accuse him of being unmusical, even though we don't have the faintest clue of what gigs he does outside of the woodshed.
Panos gigs a lot around town, and has for years. I've never seen or heard him myself, but just from seeing his name around a lot, I can only assume that he's either a very good musician, or a very good salesman. It's probably the former.
EDIT: Actually, I think I'm thinking of a different drumer: Tos Panos
My mistake.... [img]confused.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 19, 2006 04:47 PM: Message edited by: drumming sort of person ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">EDIT: Scratch that, score one for BR. If what I said were true, we wouldn't be having a hostboard, and drum conversation, as scientists have been using QM to refine their understanding of computer components for a long time. My understanding of the field was missing some really important parts. Eesh.Quote:
Originally posted by benrand:
[QB][Um...this is so incredibly wrong it's hilarious.
wiki: quantum physics
I was looking for an analogy of pure vs. applied. I wanted to reframe the argument of chops vs. feel/music in different terms so we didn't go around in circles again. Still, the originaly analogy may apply--it took a while for this new technical knowledge to be applied (or even believed) after it was discovered in the early part of the century, yes?
Perhaps the point is that Virg/Lang/Mangini/Vass./etc. are like that--coming up with new licks and skills, many of which are completely esoteric/useless, but a few of which some genius will apply soulfully to a situation and make work.
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 19, 2006 05:27 PM: Message edited by: spaceotter ]</font></font>
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 19, 2006 05:41 PM: Message edited by: spaceotter ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that sums it up. Even if he is strictly a soloist/exhibitionist, I think his drumming sounds good, and he demonstrates, what to me are, some very interesting and novel pedaling techniques.Quote:
Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
I don't see what the fuss is about. I think this guy is great and obviously trying to push some technical boundaries. But let's all instantly jump on the boat and accuse him of being unmusical, even though we don't have the faintest clue of what gigs he does outside of the woodshed.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that sums it up. Even if he is strictly a soloist/exhibitionist, I think his drumming sounds good, and he demonstrates, what to me are, some very interesting and novel pedaling techniques.Quote:
Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
I don't see what the fuss is about. I think this guy is great and obviously trying to push some technical boundaries. But let's all instantly jump on the boat and accuse him of being unmusical, even though we don't have the faintest clue of what gigs he does outside of the woodshed.
This endless debate about chops vs. musicality and how the two can be integrated reminds me of the pure vs. applied science thing. Pure scientists range out and ask questions about what's possible and stretch out theory in ways for which there are mostly no current applications. They ask questions merely to ask them, for curiosity, to explore what they can. Sometimes it seems like pure vanity. Then those tools & ideas & theories are available for when someone more "practically" minded wants to find a way to make them useful, or monetize them by applying them to a cell phone or something commercial.
For instance, quantum physics is heady, and has philosophical and intellectual implications, but traditionally hasn't had a terrific number of practical applications. However, the possibility of using this field for quantum computing--developing computers with amazingly small, fast, "yes, no, maybe" tri-setting processors--has come up as a way to continue making computers more powerful. (Somebody correct me if this is wrong; I'm no expert but this is what I have understood from recent reading.) Without the theory, the application wouldn't exist, and it takes application a long time to catch up to theory.
Similarly, some polyrhythms and raw chops exist for their own sake, and often have NO non-gratuitous application in music except to "show off" to other drummers. Then occasionally, a novel application appears for some of them. For instance, Jojo Mayer using his phenomenally over-developed chops to do those crazy drum&bass re-engineering licks with Nerve may be an example of why doing a single handed roll becomes desirable to actually make music. Now that he's shown the way to apply this technique, other people can do it. Without the technique, he probably would have given up before he succeeded though.
Both approaches are needed to advance the field--it's just that usually the explorers get scoffed at for vanity and irrelevance. Just some thoughts.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 19, 2006 12:38 PM: Message edited by: spaceotter ]</font>
I think it's cute he's trying to get that Weckl "bored" face going on while playing...
He does come across as sounding alot like Akira and Weckl at the same time which is not a bad thing at all.
Dig
What Rudy said. Too many fall into the trap of classifying drummers after watching short clips of them. Since I have never heard of this cat, or looked at his discrography, I'll have to say that he has a lot going on that I wish I could play!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hiroshima, NagasakiQuote:
it took a while for this new technical knowledge to be applied (or even believed) after it was discovered in the early part of the century, yes?
You may be confusing relativity with quantum mech and are essentially talking about scientific research and discovery in general.
Put down the bong.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heisenberg wrote his famous paper on uncertainty in 1925. Einstein's famous debate with Niels Bohr, regarding AE's discomfort with the new quantum ideas was in 1930. Nagasaki happened in 1946.Quote:
Originally posted by benrand:
Put down the bong.
Uh yeah, ok...you wouldn't have the bomb without the work in quantum physics...which was my point.
Yes Ben, we wouldn't have a lot of things without quantum physics... as far as the bomb and quantum physics- conservatives should be grateful, they wouldn't have a reason to invade Iran without it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course they would. When WMD turned out to be a lie, they came up with 3 more excuses, which also turned out to be lies:Quote:
Originally posted by matricks:
Yes Ben, we wouldn't have a lot of things without quantum physics... as far as the bomb and quantum physics- conservatives should be grateful, they wouldn't have a reason to invade Iran without it.
1) Iraq's connection to 9/11,
2) Hussain is a bad guy (yeah right, so is Castro, and he's 90 miles away),
3) To bring democracy to Iraq (yeah right, what about Cuba, IT'S 90 MILES AWAY, what about China oh yeah, they'd kick Bush's ass).
The real reason Bush and Cheney went to war was to make money for themselves war profiteering. They knew from experience (The Iran-Contra treason) that a majority of the American public was easily led down the garden path. Hell, 33% of Americans still believe what these pimps say.
In the mean time:
Osama Bin Ladin = 1
Bush/Cheney = 0
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2006 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, the U.S. wouldn't get their ass kicked YET.Quote:
China oh yeah, they'd kick Bush's ass
All the Chinese would have to do is ask us to repay the hundreds of billions of dollars that Bush has borrowed from them.
Jeez, I wonder, did I inject politics into this thread?
Nope. The left wing nutbag chorus did.
Grind that Axe Eugene. Recite those Keith Olbermann talking points. LOL.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, this sort of sounds like you like to see the US defeated...perhaps China invading and then taking over.Quote:
No, the U.S. wouldn't get their ass kicked YET.
Interesting idea. By the way, do you wear glasses? Do you like agrarian communities?
LOL
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, not so much... i would prefer that it didn't happen; however, does one truly believe that the U.S. will forever remain the only formidable military power in the world?Quote:
Hmm, this sort of sounds like you like to see the US defeated...perhaps China invading and then taking over.
Bush doesn't understand that the people who develop his really big bombs are scientists- that is where the technology comes from. Also, scientific development is the backbone of any nation that wants to move forward. The U.S. will be surpassed in the coming years, in these areas, and soon other countries (including those in Asia- like China) will be able to have a part of the monopoly that the U.S. has had for so long. And the reason that the U.S. will be surpassed? Well, it doesn't help that Bush is one of the most scientifically ignorant people in politics. While these countries look to the future, the U.S. fumbles around in the 'now'.
The reason i mention it isn't to beckon in the failure of the country, it is to state the shortcomings that are obvious and to hope that people open their eyes to it.
Bush can pray to God all he wants but it isn't going to help the nation progress when he snuffs-out stem cell research, and encourages people to believe in Intelligent Design and turn their back on true knowledge.
When a president doesn't know the difference between theory and philosophy; when he prays to God to help him win his wars... it makes me wonder who helped him get his Master's Degree.
When ignorance abounds, reason will eventually conquer. It is the language of any society that wants to progress, the path of least resistance. It is of grave consequence the amount of ignorance that abounds in this country, as i feel it is more than before.
Since you were talking about quantum physics, i only figured it fair to discuss my point in the above terms? science-speak.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By the way, that is sooo Bill O'Reilly of you. [img]wink.gif[/img]Quote:
Hmm, this sort of sounds like you like to see the US defeated...perhaps China invading and then taking over.
Benrand - I meant my comment as a joke, though since it's true, I can understand if you took offense! ;-)
BTW - I don't watch Keith Olberman, wear glasses or miss Chairman Mao, but I do read the newspaper.
Peace - and I mean it.
Back to polyrhythmic madness....
Hi! The polyrhythms presented on my dvd is just , what one can learn to advance ones skils. To see the musical side of things pls check www.thebandgrouptherapy.com .Cheers Panos www.edrums.gr