Thanks to Mainely Drummer from another forum for this...
How To Torture Drummers
Steve Vai on drummers...
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Thanks to Mainely Drummer from another forum for this...
How To Torture Drummers
Steve Vai on drummers...
Great story man!! I never got to read the whole Vinnie/sushi thing. I wouldn't have expected less from him!!
No offense to anyone. But Steve Vai is notoriously known for being full of shit.
He seems to get off on his music being so hard to play. Well, he should maybe get limp to the fact that his music is horrible, as is most music that's written simply to be hard to play.
Get a clue Steve! The reason why these great drummers quit your gig, is not because you damage them. It's because you demand too much time from them, and pay them SHIT!
Duh....Get off your high horse. John Scofield can play one note and shred you for life.
HAHA! So there.
Got to agree...never got Vai at all. His music does nada for me. Yet, Donati seems molded for such a gig. The Vai comments on Vinnie and Greg B. remind me of Simon on Virg during the recording of Moonbabies from PX--that is, guys who can cover basically anything.
Vinnie [img]cool.gif[/img]
Bissonette [img]cool.gif[/img]
Bozzio [img]cool.gif[/img]
Tos Panos [img]cool.gif[/img]
Chad Wackerman [img]cool.gif[/img]
For whatever reason, I seem to see that the "super human" guitar players seem to like rhythmically fairly straightforward grooves ala Joe Sach, Eric Johnson, Vai. It seems like its a better foundation for them to rip on. Even though I know Vai has comfounded some really "outside" tunes within crazy time signatures, I would have to agree that it leaves me somewhat conceptually empty.
Yeah man!! Scofield!! And how about Holdsworth. And how about the "unknown" John Clarke?? Remember him?? On Brufords "One of a kind". 1st time I heard that, I thought it was Holdsworth. Has anyone heard of him doing anything since that album??
Never liked Vai -- musically, just don't like him.
Vai's best record was his first EP (Fleaxable)that he recorded on 8 Track tape. Everything I've heard since has left me cold.
Vai is a metrosexual weenie.
I'm sure that JM will drop some names and refute this.
I had a friend from HS who went out to CA to find his way, found his way to transcribing Zappa music, so I guess Vai is ok, helped him out.
But he seems to be a royal prick to drummers, from what I've read about him from Mangini et al.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've heard the same thing. Bozzio said in a clinic, in not so few words that his experience working with Vai was creatively stunting. I think he was talking about recording the 'Sex and Religion' album. Apparently, Vai would dictate every note with no room for improvisation or self expression.Quote:
But he seems to be a royal prick to drummers, from what I've read about him from Mangini et al.
I agree Joe's M...shredders like that staight man. Eddie and Alex work well.
"Brufords "One of a kind"--KILLER! CLASSIC!
SDK- I agree. Sco rules. the others that blow Vai away... Abercrombie, Stern, Kahn, Metheny, Pat Martino, Mclaughlin, Lukather....and the list goes on.
Looks like we have ourselves a Thomas Lang of the guitar world, huh? [img]wink.gif[/img]
Benrand.... your attacks are getting old. Stick to the topic at hand and try to be pleasant.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, Vai is taken from the classical mold of playing... as far as the Scofield comment... i guess if that is how you feel. Vai is the Donati on guitar... Vai is on a higher plain in regards to his instrument than most of the drummers mentioned on this site... whether or not one wants to listen to so-and-so else and all that... still, he is a composer (hence why he grills drummers... if you don't wanna play the notes he's paying you for then don't take the check) and besides the composer thing he's a damn amazing guitar player... classical mentality with distortion.Quote:
No offense to anyone. But Steve Vai is notoriously known for being full of shit.
He seems to get off on his music being so hard to play. Well, he should maybe get limp to the fact that his music is horrible, as is most music that's written simply to be hard to play.
Get a clue Steve! The reason why these great drummers quit your gig, is not because you damage them. It's because you demand too much time from them, and pay them SHIT!
Duh....Get off your high horse. John Scofield can play one note and shred you for life.
HAHA! So there.
As far as Stern and Metheny... Stern is great but doesn't have chops like Vai, and Metheny makes me yawn... both Vai and Metheny are fruity, i just prefer louder guitars to go with the fruitiness...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly, that is the tune I was thinking of! But he hasn't matched that since.Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
Check out 'Call it Sleep' off Flexable. I think that is very emotional playing.
Yeah Andy..... You bring up a good point. Vai changed the paradigm of guitar playing for many, kinda the way Ingvie Malmstien did too. Even though Ingvie wasn't the nicest person when I met him, nor were the rumors I heard, but that doesn't change the fact he's influenced many out there.
And let's not forget how notorius Buddy was for firing people mid concert for not playing it his way. That's when you border the creative/I'm the freakin boss and I want MY MUSIC played THIS WAY!!! In essence. Some musicians feel this industry is supposed to be a swirly/feel good/"my interpretation" scene, but it's not so all the time. Personally I like it when a particular person hired can give his creative 2 cents. So I guess with working with Via.... it's a job to a certain degree. He wants a certain work product and it's no offense to anyone. It's just they way he wants it. So I guess once the stuff is out there, the market will respond weather or not the stuff is popular.
I too liked "Flexable". Lotsa heavy grooves and guitar ripping. Killer "crank it to 11 while driving your car 200 mph!!" [img]wink.gif[/img] But like others have said, guys like Stern, Scofield, Mike Miller have a completely..... I guess if I were to label it...... "differnt vibe"?? No offense to any musician. It's just what I prefer.
On the subject of "ripping" on other musicians. I was hanging with a group of people the other night. All serious pros that do nothing but music for a living. One thing I noticed is they never seemed to "rip" on another musician. Even if there were obvious rumors flying around about him or her. Kinda made me go "Hmmmmmmmm"??
Interesting stuff, Pocket. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
I knew a pro drummer like your friends, JM. One night at a club I pointed out a mistake I heard the drummer in the house band make and he said: "I don't even listen for that kind of stuff." He was always very positive about others' playing too; his remarks would motivate lesser talents than he (like me.) I made the mistake of telling him of an upcoming gig, my first night with a new band. Before I realized what I'd said he was asking where and when. The guy made me nervous being in the audience because we were old buds and he was so freakin' good. After the first set he said to me, "I hate guys that play as good as you." Which isn't the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me, but it was close.
And that's the way players should treat their frat brothers and sorority sisters in the musical community. Like Elvin Jones once said: "My professional career would be flagging and my parents would say something kind and I'd have the strength to go on another year."
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 16, 2005 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>
That's all well and good JM and 5/8 but somebody's got to stop BSing Ricky Rockett. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]
Seriously, I think that there is a line to be crossed if a musician truly 'rips' another musician concerning his or her musical talents. Vai's music may not appeal to certain tastes but he's certainly no hack. A metrosexual wienie perhaps, but a well respected guitarist.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 16, 2005 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Clintuplet ]</font>
Vai look's for drummers who have the name and notoriety(drumming wise) for the most part especially when touring but he is a control freak when it comes down to what they actually will play and WHEN they play it, hence you do not see Virg doing that gig no more. He has went through Bozz, Bissonette, Mangini, Virg etc. and now has Jeremey Colson playing for him, sorry quite a step down. The gig is a good money gig but other than that not much else. And honestly Vai compositionally writes fairly difficult material for the guitar but stunts the expression of the drummer within that framework.
I sure cannot make comment's about Vai personally but it seem's he is fairly easy to get along with on a personal level from what I have read just makes it hard on the drummer's musically speaking. Steve Vai live and on record is pretty much ABOUT Steve Vai.
Dig
Vai's strong point is rock guitar. An 80s vibish rock metal shred guitar component, really. But he is also a strong reader & notator.
I have a good friend who was classical & blues trained originally & who went on to become a shredding fusion [predom contempo-jazz, AWA old-school be-bop, rock, blues]. His main cats used to be the 80s metal shredfesters like EVH, GMoore, Eric J, then later MacAlpine, Yngwie, VMoore, etc; but today, are Allan, Henderson, Sco, Pass, DiOrio, Metheny, BConnors, Stern, AWA Gambale...he prefers these guys' advanced soloing-over-the-chord-changes AWA improv capabilties to that of Vai & Satch, altho he does respect them for what they did. He mostly makes note of Vai's stint w Zappa, & how he initially "got in." He does not think that Vai's strictly gtr-playg ability can match those other "newer" guys, & I tend to agree with him.
But I did enjoy Flex, P&W, & S&R. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] I had the fortune of sharing the stage with C Frazier [w Edgar Winter] who did the drum tracks on P&W. Too cool. Good rock drummer & very tight & solid.
Stern is an awesome jazz-bop & fusion gtrst, altho I can sometimes understand why someone said he "bores me to tears" ;c)... I think it may be his tendency for a bit of "old-school bop" approach to his mod rock fusion which might leave some folks cold, perhaps?
How dare you say that about Metheny, mat. Shame on you, & a double-inverse flamadiddle-tap curse on ya... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I'm having metrosexual weenies on the barbie later, if anyone's interested...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 16, 2005 04:05 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with the JC statement, altho he does the job well & is rock solid.Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Man:
1 - He has gone through Bozz, Bissonette, Mangini, Virg etc. and now has Jeremey Colson playing for him, sorry quite a step down.
2 - Vai compositionally writes fairly difficult material for the guitar but stunts the expression of the drummer within that framework.
I sure cannot make comment's about Vai personally but it seem's he is fairly easy to get along with on a personal level from what I have read...
3 - just makes it hard on the drummer's musically speaking. Steve Vai live and on record is pretty much ABOUT Steve Vai.
2 - I don't think Vai's rock composing for gtr is that difficult...I hear stronger C abilies with him charting the Zappa stuff. Altho Passn & Warf had some very cool breaks in a rock-fusion context...in certain words he himself has intimated that Tony M can shred his arse.
3 - I don't think his music itself is necessarily excessively hard on those calibre of drummers either. It's the other factors, the long rehearsals, touring hours, awa a bit of note-for-noteyness, tediousness in studio, whatnot. I don't find many of his songs themselves that difficult in concept, save for maybe something like Incantation, in which you'd better know your odd-time. But he def let da Virg stretch during his drum solo tho... [img]wink.gif[/img]
I think hjis being in Zappa is the more of the tell-tale-all, strictly music theory speaking. Which can get quite boring for most peeps. ;cp.
And altho sometimes the whole "80s metal, primadonna, 'metrosxl' [img]wink.gif[/img] rock image" thing [fan blowing the long dyed hair out away from face & all over the place, eyebrow pencil or mascara, blk nail polish, leather & lace clothing fashion style, etc] has long been a bit outdated... ;cP
But I'll stop talking [a little dab a'] smack now.
I've enjoyed SV over the years, he's def a cool rock cat, w advanced comp skills, no doubt. He's def made his mark. At least he's had & continues to have a decent thriving career for...SOLELY PLAYING THE GTR / MUSIC. [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 17, 2005 01:56 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
When I said he made it hard on the drummer musically, I was speaking of the fact that he severely limit's the drummer's expression within the song. Comp wise the drum parts are not that difficult like you said Match Grip(aka Fuse)which combined with the first statement is not too alluring for certain drummers. The gig is good to get your name out there if it is not already along with fairly good money.
Dig
Word. [img]cool.gif[/img]
[I actually gotcha da foist time broeski...me just "sounding off"...runnin' m' mouth...] [img]wink.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 16, 2005 04:40 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2005 06:59 AM: Message edited by: ELECTROVISION ]</font>
Steve Vai has changed guitar playing with his approach and I think it unfair to criticize such a player because he is not Scofield or Holdsworth.
Steve Vai is also a composer first. So what if he wants his drummers to play what he has written. He's paying the bills.
I don't listen to much Vai anymore but he was a big influence on my generation of musicians so I thought I'd stick up for the guy.
Check out 'Call it Sleep' off Flexable. I think that is very emotional playing.
Passion and Warfare are an INCREDIBLE disc... I?m not a fan, but i can say that the guy recorded amazing stuff on late 80s/early 90s...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2005 06:59 AM: Message edited by: ELECTROVISION ]</font>
Dean!!??
Is that you!!??
I just saw Vai and well... i am not a negative guy but whether it was Jeremy Colson or what Steve had him play... dude, i might as well been at a Guns N' Roses concert as far as the drums go... he didn't use an ounce of touch on the skins either. Too bad, i think it would have made the (Three) guitar parts sound so much more interesting instead of someone shredding over a programmed rock beat. Sorry.