the new Colaiuta!!

ive just read an article saying that "if you put Steve Gadd and Tony Williams into a blender, Vinnie would be the tasteful concoction/mix" then it just hit me, if that is the case, who in realm of drummers nowadays has diplayed versatility of Vinnie and Weckl into his style of drumming.....

in other words, has anyone shown skills like the great vinnie?... and who is that guy (some unreliable sources say that Horacio Hernandez fit the spot, well i dont know, no comment, ive never heard him play)

maybe Steve would be the next.... we'll never know, the future is uncertain.....

let me know.. what you think... [img]confused.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2003 09:32 PM: Message edited by: paraddidlefreak ]</font>

Well I don't think you can have "a best".

As well you have to look at the surrounding situation.. a more interesting qeustion would be. If tony williams was born today, how much BETTER do you think he would be?

Consider how much he inovated, he came up with a LOT of stuff.

There is a huge difference, I think, in inovating vs building on the old with some new twists.

Let me be honest.. I watch some videos of steve smith, weckle, gadd etc.. from teh drummers collective thing.. to be perfectly flat out honest.. after about 4 mins it all becomes the same.. ratatat ya know?

Vinnie tends to stand out more becuase he has a lot more power, and a lot more creativity.. his solos are a little more interesting.

What would be truly amazing. Is a player who could play several different styles, and fitinto them so well with a unique vooice. You would not know it was the same guy.

My $.03

I tend to think there are drummers who on a technical/innovation level are scarier than both vinnie and Dave and steve, dennis etc. and they are pretty darn versatile. My self I am being inspired by guys like Virgil, Lang and Minneman. I know they do not play on 100 albums every year which I could care less about but they are taking the mechanics of drumming to new places which for me is inspirational and Virgil(my favorite) is one heck of a versatile drummer, most have never heard enough of him in different settings to no that. In aussie land he played with everyone in every setting and he is now beginning to play in more diverse settings(he had the same syndrome vinnie had many years ago people thought he was just a technical freak and wouldn't and could not play in different settings so it took a while for him to break through he honestly has not been around that long in the states.) Lang in europe plays with loads of people in different settings. Not so much with Minneman. Mangini is also technically amazing but is not so diverse from what I have literally heard and he has a very stiff feel. And Horacio is a wonderful player and has done amazing new things in the latin/fusion realm but the Latin thing gets to me pretty quick.

they talk about vinnie clinics, but does vinnie offer lessons, you know! one on one.......

who had private lessons w/ him here?

and for how much? [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

I know he does them on occasion, i only know of in his home town here in LA.. and only that from a friend of his.

I belive steve has taken lessons from vinnie.. I could be wrong.

My private instructor at PIT is a friend of his and showed me a ton of the 'vinnie' stuff, what par say vinnie departs on the fortuante soul to sit with him.. i do not know..

Hey JosiahM ...why don't you share w/ us the "vinnie stuff" your teacher showed you? Maybe it will sart a positive thread ( i think the world is in need of it ). [img]wink.gif[/img]

yeah JM,

why dont you share what your tcher shared about vinnie......

maybe we could learn somthing... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Not so sure folks like Donati and Lang can be called "versatile" drummers at all. Steve Gadd is much more versatile, although he`s got less flashy technic. Gadd is one of the few that can play most styles "convincingly".

For example, I don`t think Pat Metheny would hire Virgil to work on his "current" projects. Not because Virgil is not good, but just because Virgil is not as versatile. Antonio Sanchez fills Metheny`s spaces in a beautiful musical way.

For me, drummers that are multi-dimensional reach me much more than those who excel in only one dimension of drumming. There are those who are great drummers, and those who are drummers who are GREAT musicians. Both have the right to express themselves as they please, that`s for sure too. It`s only me...

Just a thought,

PEACE,

agreed on Virgil... don't know about Lang. His session list is pretty impressive if you ask me.

Most guys do not know what Virgil and others have done like Lang. Like I said guys in the past had to get past the assertion that they were just technical aliens yet proved their versatility over time. How many have actually heard and seen Virgil or others play in different settings. MOST HAVE NOT "PERIOD". They make assertions based on rumor and clinic impressions and from videos. And steve gadd and antonio sanchez will not be asked to play on a progressive or metal album or even a hard edged fusion album because they have not yet proven themselves or simply cannot do it the way Virgil and others can. Who has heard virgil play in a latin or pop or funk setting maybe 1 percent of those who know about virgil, but the man can play very well in those settings because I have heard him. I know the reviews from Virgil playing with CAB from their recent tour have been fantastic in fact alot guys have been shocked at his verstility, point proven. I talked to a couple guys(drummers) who wanted to see how he would handle the funky-jazz tunes that Dennis played on and they said Virgil blew them away, he totally nailed it.

I know for a fact he proved alot of people wrong a few years back when in Denver. He did a clinic then was asked to join a jam on stage where the theme was funk and there were a few drummers there who were THE accomplished funk drummers and he out funked all of them and shocked a few people in the process. Do not lock people in a box until you see and hear what they can really do.

Digital

Lang has a pretty impressive list, agreed. I was also thinking back to Virgil's first interview back in MD in 97 and i recall him saying that the first time he moved to the US he studied with Philly Joe when he was 19 and actually Philly recommended him for a gig with, i believe, Bill Evans... not totally sure, but it was someone of that caliber in the straight ahead jazz community. As it turned out Virgil called up to see about the gig and someone gave him misinformation and told him the drummer had been picked, that was before Virgil auditioned. He ended up not auditioning and subsequently moved back Down Under. I believe that little story does tell a little about the versatility of Virgil. When i saw him with Planet X he launched into a blistering solo, which i must admit was a vulgar (in a good way) display of chops but yet didn't do much for me musically. After he proceeded to stop his solo and ask that the lighting guy take the lights out of his eyes he briefly proceeded to play some jazz time while comping some SICK stuff under it. For all the chops that he played in his 7 minute solo those 16 bars, or so, blew me away more than anything else he played for some reason. He really did show a different side of his playing and i was thoroughly impressed in a musical, not chops, sense. He did indeed swing his ass off for those 16 bars... i was sold on it!

Not to start the old "who's better" thing again, but in my opinion Thomas Lang and Virgil Donati are closest to "touching" Vinnie as it were....this isn't to say they are the "new Vinnie", only that they are the ones whose chops and more importantly, ideas, come even close to the shit Vinnie comes out with. Certain other drummers (not mentioning any names) are still very impressive at their own thing that they do, but it's just not as interesting....just my 2 pence, sorry, cents...

Hey Beat Hit, first off i did not imply you were ignorant but that we need to hear more of an artist to have a better idea of what they can do. I respect your sincere opinion based on what you know. And I am sure you know quite a bit more about other artists than I do. I have no doubt.

The whole versatile issue is a hard one because there are guys who can play well in some styles but usually are not THE BEST for that genre neccessarily. Vinnie and Dave are not my first choice for straight up Jazz that is for sure but they can play it well. Virgil is a very good funk player but he is not David Garibaldi. Roy haynes or Max Roach or Tony Williams were great Jazzers but other than Tony playing fusion they would not be great in another realm from what I have heard. Even the great Tony W. was not that versatile. Chambers sure is not my first choice for Prog or Pop. this can go on and on. I have heard Vinnie try and pull off harder edge fusion/prog and was not blown away. Dave is a good Latin player but is not a Horacio or Robby Ameen.

Now this is just my opinion but being fairly versatile does not make you a GREAT player. I got into Vinnie and Tony W. and Virgil because of truly
original innovative rhythmic concepts, Great Technique( diverse stickings,precision,fluidity,
speed power etc.) and unique/creative chops(phrasing included) that were insane. Being versatile is secondary to me.
I got to give Terry Bozzio credit he said heck with the idea that you got to play in a band or a certain style to make music on the drums. You do not have to. If you have the mental/emotional and physical ability you can make your instrument sing without others on stage.

These 3 reasons are why I am inspired by Virgil, Mangini, Marco and Lang to a lesser degree. even though I think Lang is more musical diverse and has better feel than Marco and mangini. They are pushing the limits of drumming.
Honestly I can go back 6 or 7 years and I see Lang pulling off now, alot of stuff Virgil was doing back then.


Here are a few albums with diversity that virgil has played on.
1. Alex Pertout(self titled) Latin
2. Linda Cable- Just a dreamer, Jazz
3. Jon Stevens- Are you satisfied, killer pop with an edge.
Joel Hoekstra- Undefined, some great funk/fusion.
Southern Sons- Nothing but the truth, great classic melodic hard rock.
Planet X -Moonbabies, Amazing combination of fusion with a metal edge at times. Definitely a landmark album for innovation. "Simon Phillips" said that recently he tried to sit down and play some of the grooves Virgil layed down on the album and the best he could do was TRY! and he realized that Virgil was even MADDER! than he thought after attempting to play along.

On all of these you will find that Virgil displayed great taste and creativity which=being musical, along with very good feel.

Best regards Digital

in response to roy's post.....when he said lang and virgil come closest to touching vinnie.....i have yet too see vinnie live so i aint gonna judge.....but vinnie doesnt do all those amazing double bass patterns or any of the extreme independence.....or does he? maybe im wrong? but how can they not "touch" him when they are doing more complex things? i know its not all about speed and technique but correct me if im wrong.

i agree w/ you on that one Roy...

[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

other drummers (may it be professional/world renowned), doesnt seem to be interesting to listen to..... they all sound the same when they play (given that they have their own signature chop stuffs, no offense to all the drummers out there, just sharing a thought).

i dont want to sound redundant, but Vinnie really is, or creates much more interesting stuff, in any genre of music.....

i just hope someone would be like him in some ways.... i dont want to listen to drummers doing the same old ratatatat.. no matter how fast they are....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 24, 2003 04:23 AM: Message edited by: paraddidlefreak ]</font>

In response to palmerlouie....I'm sure Vinnie has most of the independence and a considerable amount of the foot-technique that those other guys have....whether we get to hear it or not depends on Vinnie, but my point was that rhythmically they come close, i.e. their concepts of rhythm and time etc are a break away from the norm, just like Vinnie's have been for as long as I can remember...

Fair enough digital,

I was not addressing the who's "best" issue, I was rather speaking of versatility.

I can only judge by what I have been exposed to, so forgive my ignorance. Saw Lang in a clinic in Toronto. Santana's percussionists were performing as well and I was blown away by some dimensions of his playing, but his Latin disappointed me, as they all jammed together at the end. But you know what? That's fine too, meaning, not to handle some styles convincingly. Just something else to work on that's all. He still remains a superb drummer, but "versatile"? Not convinced ... yet! LOL!!!

I look forward to hear Virgil playing other styles. Any album titles welcomed... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Gadd is NOT a specialist that`s for sure. He also comes from a different generation. Sanchez, well he's younger and heard he's pretty scary technically like a cross between Dennis C and Horacio.


PEACE,

I have seen Vinnie, weckl, chambers, smith etc live and they definitely have real good interdependence but they have never displayed the extreme ideas that guys like Virgil, Minneman, Mangini and Lang have. Were talking "TRUE" four way interdependence swithching patterns from the left side to the right with ease, from the feet to the hands without hesitation. These guys have pushed the whole realm of ostinatos to another level. And no their double bass chops are good but far behind guys like Virgil and Lang and Minneman.

I had the oppurtunity to see Virgil at a clinic in early 99 and he was warming up and doing rudimental patterns with his feet that most of us could not do with out hands. And he was playing really complex groove(locking in)patterns and was switching leading with the right foot and hand to the left foot and hand and did not miss a beat. I had to shake my head in dis-belief.

I have no doubt that Virgil and a few(2 or 3 others) are physically beyond vinnie and Dave etc
but it is their fresh concepts that remind me of vinnie years ago. Not the same playing but just that wacked out imagination with the abilities to pull it off. The guy who got me into Virgil back in 95 said well he(Virgil) is (LIKE) not the same, as a Vinnie on STEROIDS! It was a pretty good description to me.

The reason I dig Virgil is he incorporates what he pulls off in a clinic or solo setting into a song(band setting) and makes great music. A few guys(minneman, Mangini) play their wacked out stuff in a solo setting but I have not heard them make it work in the band setting.


Digital

Well all the aforementioned drummers share a common thread-a wicked pair of ears.They all hear the drumset in highly individual ways.I almost couldnt even reference Weckl with any of those guys,theres something old skool about his 'ears',like you can almost tell what hes inspired by at the moment,whereas Vinnie,Minnemen,Donati,Lang;leave me with the impression that they have ALOT of different musics running thru their genius heads.Still surprised that noone here is into Jo Jo Mayer.If u are into any of these guys u gotta check Jo Jo.............................beats.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I saw a term I just HAVE TO comment on: True Independence.

There is NO such thing. True independence means that you could just randomly play 4 with left foot, 7 with right foot, 3 with left hand, 13 with right hand, just like that. NOBODY can do that. Not even the great Terry Bozzio.

I've had the privilege of working one-on-one with Gregg Bissonette, and the example above is Gregg's example. He said that if people saw the days, months, years, it takes to get comfortable with doing one of those crazy "true independence" licks, and then how many more months of practice before actually performing it, people would really think twice. There?s no short cut for practice.

Clearly, in the case of Terry Bozzio, he has decided to concentrate on difficult patterns with independent parts on each limb. For others, maybe the focus is speed. Others might concentrate on feel and groove, and other ?creative? fills and such.

Just my thoughts, or Gregg B?s?

Danny

Excellent point Danny.

Yes your right that is why I use the word "Interdependence" so often. You must rely on all your limbs to achieve pulling off these ridiculous patterns.

Digital

AH..

Most of it is conceptual, alot of drumming is mental.. everything is either a single or double stroke or a combination of the 2. Every time sig is either 2 beats, 3 beats or any combo..

I have a notebook filled with stuff from him, his name is Gary Garbitini.. steve knows him as well. The guy is incredible..

I like Grant but he really sounds like a Percussionist to me at times rather than a drummer. It can be so muddled and almost sloppy sounding. I saw him on the TUDW tape from Australia with Virgil and Dave and he was sloppy at times(to me) and his feet lacked the power and consistency of other greats. Good Lord! how big is his set, it is 10 times bigger than Virgil's or Vinnie's and other's and what he uses 20 pedals or something crazy like that. Maybe a little exxageration on the size but his kit looks like the percussion section at my local drum store! Not hard to make lot's of noise when you got all that STUFF! Would Like to see what he would do with a bass, snare, tom, floor tom and a couple cymbals and a hat. He does not have the clarity and clear seperation in his interdependence playing like Terry Bozzio has( I mention this because they are somewhat similar.)

Digital

Grant's feet sounded pretty nice when they were all trading licks at the end though! He played doubles very well a number of times during that section did he not?

You guys are all talking about independance and you forgot Grant Collins. His independance is the most melodic of all of them. His ostinato patterns are very intricate, alot more than what Virgil does----not to say that what Virgil does is easy.
Also, Pete Zeldman, who can play things that sound like random chaos, but then all of a sudden they repeat. His multipile time rates are worse than Mangini- he goes beyond 20. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Anyway, I have to say Vinnie is great, and all drummers draw on him for creativity. Another very creative drummer is Sean Rickman. He is very much worth checking out. I have a French Import double CD of him live with Steve Coleman. Killer shit. [img]wink.gif[/img]

AT times his feet sound nice but not amazing. I will take others in the feet department. I like Terry much more in this type of context for the reasons I already mentioned. But Grant is Good at what he does, not my cup of tea.

Grant is not a chops player. He's the first one to admit that. His DB is pretty extreme, his solo Definately not a Ballad has very intricate doubles and singles etc...
Grant's style is very tribal and Bozz is very classical.

Also, the stuff that Grant plays like Dogboy is very difficult. I saw him in Nashville after being up over 34 hours, set his smaller kit up in 2 1/2 hours that he never played before, and watched/video'd him that night. He had a couple of flubs, but you have to understand that he is forging his own challenging path, like Virg and Bozz.

I talked to Bozzio at the Florida Drum Expo97, and someone said, "Hey Terry, why don't you play a 5 piece kit?" Terry replied,"Because I would sound like everyone else."

Good points Flam. And you are right about the classical compared to tribal sound that is why it is somewhat difficult for me to get into. I have to train my ears more, so then I will hopefully dig it down the road, but he is a good solid player.

Digital