The Ineffable Motion

I have seen many a gig in my day living out here in LA. I thought Virgil's drum solo this summer was beyond description, but what I just witnessed tonight at the Baked Potato is beyond human words.

I knew when Abe Sr. gathered Mike Landau, Greg M, and Vinnie for opening prayer I was in for something special. It was standing room only tonight and I was in line at 6:15 until the doors opened at 8PM.

These guys haven't played a note together in six months before the downbeat. The guy I took had never seen Vinnie before. I have never seen him in this type of setting either. I thought seeing Holdsworth was going to be my highlight of the year on Friday.

Vinnie was beyond description tonight. He was GENUS! If there was ever the term to be used to describe a musician then tonight was the night. My head is shaking at this man's mastery of his instrument. It was sick, it was ridiculous...it was Vinnie.

What made this all the more memorable was the clown video taping the set. Vinnie blew a gasket blurting out after a number, "That's so disrespectful!" He was noticably distrubed by this as he played and Abe reached over, reaching out his hand to calm Vinnie down. After the last number, Vinnie darted out from his kit through the crowd. I thought he needed a smoke or a pee real bad...he went after the guy taping and demanded the tape!!! It was unreal.

I blame the Baked Potato. They are nice people, but stupid comes to mind. During the set, you hear clanging beer bottles at the bar...they should have stopped the clown taping IMMEDIATELY and ended this at the get-go. Vinnie didn't need to be bothered with this. I couldn't spot the guy or I would have gone after him- "Lose the tape or hit the road...choose NOW!" It was sad.

This was an unreal evening...VINNIE is hands down the best drummer on the planet...no question, absolutely no question at all. Weckl at the Hollywood Bowl this summer with Chick was insane...this was BETTER!!! The guy is a walking encyclopedia of musical creativity and phrasing- chops abounding into the perfect musical whole. The guy standing next to me transcribes drum music, co-wrote Dom F's book- this is the guy who writes those ridiculous note-for-note solos in MDrummer. He couldn't believe what he saw tonight. Man, I'm out...I thank God he gave us Vinnie for a while to enjoy and appreciate. This site too because it turned me onto the one & only, Mr C.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 20, 2003 03:10 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

Wow Pocket!!

Thanks a million for such a nice update! Well written indeed, too bad I missed it...

O well, not meant to be!!

I think it's bullshit that he did that. How much f---ing money does he think someone will make off of him? He's not Michael Jackson. They probably just wanted it for their own enjoyment anyway.

Nice Christian attitude Vinnie!

Well pocket...

great review and update. u all know my opinion on vinnie not that i am anyone special and should have the right to say anything bad about any of these master drummers.......but the article u wrote was one filled with excitment and passion for drumming and vinnie. he must have been awesome for u to have said that.....i wish i had seen it. i dont think i will compare vinnie and weckl again. as u said it was sad about the idiot taping but intersting that vinnie actually got up and went for it.....quite right!!!

Cool post, Pocket.

I think Vinnie has a right to that tape, given the violation of his 'playing space' during a live performance. What a distraction! And very disrespectful. I'm sure he went after the guy for that reason only.

http://life_ministry.tripod.com/vinnie1-18-03

wrong file name.

here's the correct one.
http://life_ministry.tripod.com/MVI_0555.AVI

ahhhh that link isn't working either.

it's a good clip from the landau trio show. anyone know where i can host this thing for free?

Let me give some more context to the video incident. Vinnie played the first tune and non-verbally told this guy on the floor to stop taping. He was oriental (language issue???)and the guy simply ignored the request. After I believe the third song, Vinnie blurted, "That's so disrespectful" and was shaken by it. Yes, he could have responded more "Christian", letting it go or either asking the staff to take care of this situation, freeing his spirit to simply play.
The entire incident could have easily been avoided by the Baked Potato staff if they had a head to their arms & legs. If the talent does not want taping (most do not...this summer, Virgil kindly told a guy taping after the first tune that he just got a free song, but to please put the camera away. He was very cool and calm...the gig went on, deal was done, life moves on).
Obviously, Vinnie was pissed, the guy was a jerk, really, he had to know what was going on with Vinnie, and he was very disrespectful to continue taping. I mean, the guy was taping, looking through the viewfinder...gee whiz, what was he looking at...a happy Vinnie? Language issue or not (I am just wondering...I do NOT know about this, giving all the benefit of doubt) the guy needed to STOP taping.
This was not the local high school jazz band doing a Sunday night jam for parents & friends. These are four of the most recorded cats over the past 20 years. If that doesn't deserve respect, what does? Having a high-brow attitude is one thing, but these four guys were great and very accessible after the first set...well, Vincent wasn't to be seen..maybe talking a little walk after all those deep pocket grooves along Ventura Blvd!

Moral of the story- call in advance if you can record...that is if the staff can make a decision about more than, "The 2 drink min does not include water!"

here are some pictures from the show


http://www.bsbclife.org/misc/IMG_0549.jpg


http://www.bsbclife.org/misc/IMG_0550.jpg


http://www.bsbclife.org/misc/IMG_0551.jpg

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2003 06:19 PM: Message edited by: shedder ]</font>

http://www.bsbclife.org/misc/IMG_0552.jpg


http://www.bsbclife.org/misc/IMG_0554.jpg

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2003 06:20 PM: Message edited by: shedder ]</font>

Yo Beat Hit,

I meant the "Christian attitude" thing sarcastically. I don't expect someone to necessarily surrender all their convictions in the name of religion. But it seems that Vinnie has two sides, the "god bless you, my brother" side, and the pissed off, volatile, unforgiving side. It's like, "who's the real Vinnie?" I suppose this is, however, somewhat true for all of us. But I still think it's really dumb to get bent out of shape over a taping. Fuck, Vinnie plainly says he used to try his hardest to boot Tony Williams back in the day. Has he forgotten what it's like? Maybe this dude's blatant audacity bugged him more than anything. Someone mentioned how this videotaping could distract Vinnie. Well, if such is the case, he may be in the wrong business, (obviously I am not serious about this.) Part of this music thing is entertainment. No, it is not Vinnie's responsibility to make sure the rest of the world can make bank off illegal bootlegs, but I think bad-ass players run that risk when they become so bad-ass and start playing gigs. And yes, of course I am aware of the self-gratification aspect of music as well, which, in my opinion, comes first. Vinnie probably feels that he should have the right to get up there, play, and make himself feel good, and he's right! What does he expect, though, people like his playing! People want to see it again and again for dissection purposes. Again, maybe it's the punk rock in me, but I vow on this Tuesday morning...if I am ever of Vinnie's status, bootleg me all you want, kiddies! Get rich!

Nice one.

If Vinnie asks someone nicely to stop, I agree there's no question they should. Sounds like the way Virgil handled it is the way a "pro" should.

The Baked Potato doesn't have a policy because MANY bands are OK with you taping. Most just want you to ask first. (Jeff Richman is a good example, Andy Summers is another)

Also, at NAMM a TON of people are from out of town or out of the country and may have no idea about Vinnie's temper regarding taping. I'm sure they just figure "hey, I get to make my first trip to the States and see my hero, I'd be crazy NOT to tape it!"

In any case, again I agree that when asked that guy certainly should have stopped taping but I don't hold it against him that he tried in the first place. Sites like this are out there for the promotion of our art form and other than the EBAY guy, I don't see people here trying to make money off Vinnie boots. If some guy from Japan (or Hollywood for that matter) wants to get some footage of his hero so he can study and learn from it I just have trouble finding anything disrepectful about it. (present case excluded of course)

Ya know, I think Vinnie could cut off a lot of this crap if he would just release an official video. Weckl doesn't seem to have to deal with this at all. It's like his attitude brings the bootleggers from the woodwork.

why has vinnie never made a drum video or anything of that sort. i maybe wrong but he does not seem to give much back to the drum community?

does anyone know what happened to his mother cause wasnt she very ill recently...? that was why the clinic tour was cancelled i belive?!

Nikk, I couldn't agree more.

Christian attitude Nikk? What's a Christian attitude? Being a door-mat? Not to have an opinion, and/or feelings on being used as a mere commodity? As in "shut up Vinnie and just play for our greed, 'cause there never will be enough boot-leg of you out there"

Keep in mind that it may also have been the way the guy was doing it in the open, right to his face. That's what people do when they go to the zoo. Very disrespectful it sounds the guy was. He should have hide himself at least!!

Because Vinnie plays the way he plays and that he's achieved such success, he must bypass his 'gut' feeling on the matter just because? You may not agree with it, but he's entitled to his opinion.

Put yourself in his shoes. Lots of folks in the drum-world chase him around just because of his status. You know that attraction to the 'rich&famous'/Star thing. It's easy for us non-famous to come to conclusions too quickly. I am glad I am not known!!!

Anyways, as I just read in H.O.D. forum, there are other Vinnie NAMM boot-legs available. It's not that bad... One less available, that's all.

Let's give the guy a break!!

Ciao,

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2003 01:34 AM: Message edited by: beat Hit ]</font>

Vinnie is smart and I think he has a right not to have people videotape. So many guys have videos out and after the video comes out everybody starts playing those licks and it makes it so that there's no mystery anymore.
A friend asked the great drummer Joey Baron if she could take a lesson from him and he simply said I don't teach, but the best thing to do is to come see me live and buy the records I'm on.
I also heard Billy Cobham is a realy stickler on video taping.
Playing is their livelihood and they should protect themselves.
I know the Grateful Dead and jam bands have a following of tapers but a lot of those bands are anti commercial and make most of their money on playing live shows.
Also, when Vinnie passes he can help protect his family by having control over his incredible talents. If tapes are going around left and right for free then why would anyone want to buy the real tape. Look at Buddy Rich. When he died, (with serious tax prolems I have heard-hope not to cause a rumor if this is not true) his daughter was/is smart in gathering up all of his professional tapes and is now creating quite a documentation of her father and hopefully at the same time recouping some $$$.
Come on, let's think ahead and not be so greedy.
Weckl on the other hand has from the get go very quickly put out a lot of info from the first transcriptions of his sound supplemt to his videos to the latest Gruber concepts. Dave's a great teacher and wants his name out there. Vinnie was a little older when all of this video stuff came out and had to concentrate on playing on records and jingles to sustain a living. He's totally hooked up with playing drums as a sideman with people and probably wants to keep that going.
IMO- I think Vinnie (while he's in his prime-which could be today or in several years-haha) should record a Video under raps on a format that is encoded that can't be duped and then trickle them out about the time he wants to slow down his schedule (live/studio). Look at how hungry we all are to find Vinnie stuff. He's smart, smart and least I say smart.
Wheww- just had to let this out!
Blake [img]eek.gif[/img]

has anyone been able to download the video clip i posted earlier?

yeah, shed... thanks for that one!!!
I did the ol' right click and save target as type deal and walked away with a 12.5meg vid of the Vin-Man himself.. courtesy of the Shed-Man?

how'd ya manage that vid and the pics if Vinnie chased down one dude already?

anyhoo, hope you can share the rest of that tape with the rest of us HODans.

...NOPE [@#$%&*!]... [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2003 04:08 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

GREAT PICS shedder, thanks a bunch. I'm gonna link this thread in the news. If you need to take the pics down for any reason, can I host them on the HOD server? Thanks.
Also forget that tripod crap, send me the vid and I'll host that too.

If anyone EVER has goods to share and have nowhere to upload, EMAIL ME.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2003 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

Numero - when i R click on either URL listed, it gives me "suspended [Microsoft HTML Document 5.0]"....

Fuse!!!

I'm xferring the file to Steve so he can host it on HOD... I think shedder's hit his limit on bandwidth... I was able to snag it earlier today... boy am I glad I did...

I think some of us are missing the point:

First, Vinnie does not need the money. He plays for the love of the art and gets paid quite well, thank you.

Second, a musician's playing space is sacred. How close is too close? 10 feet? 5 feet? 2 feet? It's up to the artist, not the audience.

Third, if someone is bugging me -- while drumming or playing chess or whatever -- they better stop when I tell them! This guy didn't. Nuff said.

The real shame is that the Potato staff did nothing, and Vinnie had to handle it himself.

Interesting comments from everyone. It's easy to sit back and put our heroes under the microscope and criticize. But, something tells me that if we had walked the same path that Vinnie walked, we might have exactly the same attitude about taping that he does.

For me, if I saw somebody taping me at one of my gigs...I'd probably offer to buy him dinner...

OK you guys NEED to see this video.
CLICK HERE.

Oh. My. God.

sorry about the video. there's a reason why places like tripod host for free. anyway, i recorded it with my s230 digicam. it has no red light when recording so it's pretty hard to spot... plus the camera is really tiny. i think it's perfect for bootlegging shows at smaller clubs like bp.
steve, you can do whatever you wish with those pics. they're for ya'll to enjoy. how shall i send you the clip for you to host on this site? it's over 12mb.

I take my last post back. I just saw the Vinnie vid. and because i'm in NY; this is the only way I can see him in a go for it situation. He never plays out here except for really commercial gigs.
Now, I can only see how these little internet videos can only create more interest. These are little camcorders and the sound on these are pretty sucky. Now if a person has a serious camera and mic and etc... then I would say that's another issue.
Thanks for the vid !!!!!

just kidding. looks like you already got it.
please send your thank you money to my paypal account. hahaha.

Hey thanks. If you have anything else, let me know.
Is there other footage?

that's the only clip i got that night. sorry, i wish i could've gotten more but i was too busy trying pick up my jaws off the ground.
i do have a pretty long drum solo clip of virgil with planet x but the audio/video quality is pretty bad and it's over 35mb. want that one?

Hey thanks for the video.. I live very close but was unable to get in.. wich sucks..

You know, i'd rather not debate the whole taping thing, but from freinds of vinnie, i've heard some rather, interesting stories about his "anger" outide fo any video taping or pictures stuff... granted, i wasn't there so i don't know... but you know what too?

Nobody is perfect. So, in the spirit of that.. it's all good, he could have been worse and thrown a drumstick at him or something.. so I'd say it's just life and maybe we might see some official stuff later on or maybe not, but we are still left with a lot of cool stuff from the vince man.

RAD!! Thanx 4 the clip Shedder,very cool.Im glad u didnt get your ass kicked for bootlegging this little nugget [img]wink.gif[/img] .Would'ive love 2 have been there.And i still stand by my post.Thanx again for the generosity......beats

Please take me with a grain of salt...

1) Last year, I attended a Dave Weckl clinic and you know what? Right off the bat before he went on sharing his knowledge he kindly stopped someone from taping.

2) Nikk, I see what you're saying. You're quite right in speaking of this "dual" thing being inside all of us. So yeah, Vinnie does have two sides! It's in that context that I say once again that I am glad that my life is not under people's microscope like Vinnie's is. Speaking of "punk rock" side, correct me if I am wrong but isn't it that known as being "non-conformist" to society at large? So then what's wrong with Vinnie's "punk rock" side in being a "non-conformist" in his own way, as far as making videos, being taped or whatever? He HAS TO just because we say so? Just a thought... ;-) I also look forward to the day when Vinnie will release his first video.

3) Beats, interesting to read you ended with "much love and respect". I hardly saw any of that in your text. Vinnie a baby? Not sure about that, I'd say he's exercising his freedom of choice. It's America after all... I'd rather say that "maybe" it's some of us drummers behaving like babies, never having enough tapes, videos to be satisfied with? I don't think Vinnie is our slave either... Bill Bruford once wrote in MD a few years back that in his days, none of that stuff was available and has not suffered because of it. On the contrary he developped his own voice!! He remains one of the most original drummers around!! Too many Vinnie videos would maybe result in.... Too many Vinnie clones?? Just a thought... That "punk rocker" side of yours hates that "punk rocker" side of Vinnie? Interesting... Peace to ya!!!

Respectfully yours,

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 22, 2003 01:08 AM: Message edited by: beat Hit ]</font>

Cool pics Shedder,thx! I'm with Nikk&Derek on this one.There was a similar topic last year about this.I posted that Vinnie SHOULD just make the definitive instructional vid/dvd.Ironically enuff,Tony Williams was outlining a very extensive(it was to span 3 videos!)instructional vid,just b4 he passed on.Vinnie's recent quotes about God/Christianity(yeesh),led me 2 believe that maybe hes lightened up,guess i was wrong.While he does have every right 2 be bothered,he very nearly(by some accounts here)put the music at risk by being unreasonably distracted by the videographer.Distraction 4 me is if i spy someone gettin ready to launch a glass ashtray onto the stage(which actually happened to me),not someone sourcing out educational material via video.Honestly, i dont give a shit if these guys are highly respected,which means they are highly paid.I want to be educated,and Vinnie is the greatest living drummer out there,i want 2 learn from the best,in any given opportunity.If my students want to video me at a reasonable rate of $5.00-$9.00 @ a show im performing,additionally with the weekly one on one lessons,then good one on them,its a drum lesson in itself to view drummers live for many many various reasons.As a plus it would only help boost my profile.In recent times,ive been immensly impressed by some of the Vinnie interviews ive read.He's become very articulate and descriptive with his words,he has a confidence of a true master at the top of his game,why not translate that into a formal instructional vid?In the true scheme of things WE ARE Vinnie's boss,without our support and enthusiasm for his otherworldy skills,he would be dodging glass ashtrays in some smoky club in buttfuck nowhere.So Vince,STFU!!!I love yer talent,love yer perspective,love many things that u do.Take yer Chri$tian a$$ over to Hud$on video,find a trusted producer and director,and cut out the middle man to make a stand-alone instructional vid.U will make money,and pass along a masters take on this wonderful instrument that has provided you a meal ticket and a voice in the vast musical landscape.Hey if u were really smart u could collect ALL the bootlegged clinics/concerts,package them along with yer cool instructional video,and make even more money,and gain my respect(not that i dont respect his talents,just disgusted by his babyness about bein videoed),and lead the future of drumming.Sorry bout the rant,the punk rocker in me simply cannot tolerate such insolence from a guy who puports himself to be thoughtful(yeah yeah,"..well the bootlegger was insolent at not complying to Vinnie's wishes to not being videoed....blah blah blah..." of his talents........lol....wateva......ill still support the vinnie.....much love and respect ....beats

canon s230. the room wasn't nearly as bright as it made it out to be. the lighting in the video clip is more accurate since i wasn't using the flash.

Just curious but what did anyone find so impressive from that clip?

Not to put vinnie down, or say he doesn't have some chops.. but as far as that video goes.. eh, I don't see/hear anything incredibly impressive going on.. not to be a stuck booty, but i can comp stuff like that all day, me and and at least 5 other guys i know..

I'm going to let this one die out, but I do have a question;

How significant is a video as far as having "Vinnie-clones" when you can purchase just about everything the guy has recorded?

Think about it, he lays it out every time he goes into the studio. You want to clone Vinne...go for it! I think the name Steve Gadd says it all as for cats grabbing the goods off LP's.

With all the info out today, there is NO excuse for the serious player to not have his stuff down...it's information overload today.

Hey Shredder, what type of camera did you use? I was at Planet X's last gig in CA and all my shots were underexposed. I know you used a digital camera, but I used 800mm film in similar lighting. Your shots were clear and well lit.

you had to be there. i'm 110% sure no one in the world could've done what vinnie did that night. he's not human. i totally agree with pocket in his first post. vinnie is by far the best drummer in the world and to me the best drummer who ever lived. i don't think God will ever again create someone who has as much innate sense of time as vinnie. the way he manipulates the time with weird phrasings and stickings in any time signature, it's just awe-inspiring. unbelievable. i wish every drummer could see him play live at least once.