War has started...

[img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

My heart goes out to all our soldiers and the Iraqi people.

Since this war has started, I can only hope it's quick and the fewest lives on all sides are lost.

[img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

Amen to that, Bran, Amen to that.

I'll do my best to make you proud.

I promise you.

You, and all the others, already do, man...you already do...

"Millions are praying for your safety and the safety of the innocent"

Don't worry about making people proud. Just do your job, achieve your objective and get it one step closer to being done.

*salutes*

For Bird: Just come out blastin'and look out for merphey at all times, watch your back and when it's over come home do the wife and drink ALOT. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

For others: Just keep the boys in your thoughts and don't EVER hate them. wish them luck and that god is with them.

My heart goes out to all of the people involved in this struggle. Get home safe.

Ski why the hell would anyone hate them?

i've been praying it wouldn't come down to this, but it has, so i'll pray our guys come home safe and more good comes of this than bad.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by tyledras:
Ski why the hell would anyone hate them?

.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

cause some people can be morons at times. not naming names and pointing fingers but it's happend once after a war and I just never want to see it happen again. make sence now?

no, not really

nevermind then

*hugs to all the soldiers* Just come home, that's all we ask.

Tyle---Perhaps Ski means people, especially these protesters, have a tendency to confuse or equate "opposing the WAR" with "opposing the TROOPS BEING THERE". They can be in protest marches all they want, but they may not be aware that it sends a mixed message to a troop in the desert. The troops in general aren't necessarily hearing "...oh, of course I support our men and women in uniform..."; what they ARE hearing is "protest march, protest march, protest march".

Or maybe Ski meant something different altogether. [img]wink.gif[/img]

No crazy thats pretty much it. thanks for the clarification. I'm just not good with words and getting my point across. need to work on that more I guess. [img]smile.gif[/img]

What Bran said and keep your fool head down 'bird!

I really don't get the impression- from people I've talked to (and I have been to a lot of demonstrations, sit ins and vigils at this point) that protesters in general are blaming the soldiers. The armed forces do their job to protect our country and safeguard it's interests. it's not the fault of individual soldiers that the military is being misused by our government. I really abhore Bush. He's doing everything he claims to be fighting against.

He's ignoring the UN and the security council- treating them as if they're invalid organizations.

Saddam Hussein is a bad guy, to be sure. He's an evil and unjust ruler. He's willing to sacrifice the welfare of his country and threaten innocent people just to control wealth and power. All the same, that doesn't give us the right to launch a preemptive war- He hasn't attacked us.

I don't see Bush doing this for anything other than personal gain- and I do feel it's criminal. He has oil interests. His cabinet has business interests in the defense industry. He is riding on an ultra right wing agenda.

In two years, he has turned a surplus budget into a 300 billion dollar deficit. Now he's investing in an unneccesary war while our economy is going bankrupt. He's supposedly "jumpstarting" the economy by giving tax cuts to the wealthy, while more and more people are out of work and losing their health care.

The public education system in California is taking major funding cuts because of this war- That means that kids (mainly poor kids, because the middle class families can afford to supplement) are losing their science, music and art classes, their tutoring, their extra-curricular activities. Teachers are being laid off during a time when we have a shortage of educators. And this is what we call "no child left behind?"

He's pilfering our natural resources with oil drilling. He's easing environmental restrictions on corporations that produce byproducts that contribute to global warming.

He's attacking our basic civil rights.

And we're so distracted by the fact that we are about to bomb another country that we don't have time or attention to address these pressing issues.

Bravo Bush for being so clever. What idiot ever let this guy and his cronies get their hands on weapons of mass destruction? They'd probably blow up the world if they stood to gain a red cent by it.

*hugs Lulu*

Very well put.

I have a personal interest in this military action. My best friends son, a young man I admire a great deal is over there. For selfish reasons and the people I love, I dearly hope he comes home safe.

I hope all our soldiers and the innocents of Iraq survive this safely. I'm just not naive enough to believe it. *sigh*

'Bird, I truly hope you come home safe! I have more book recommendations for you. *hugs*

We in Brasil are making protests against the war.
But personally for me this is nonsense... We have enough war in the world why the heck one more. May god protect us all, because this war will affect everyone. May God protect both sides.

I?m shocked by the images of the bombs. As shocked as I was with the incident in 11 sept. I ask myself why the hell bush and saddam are shocked too.

Demonstrations. Sit-ins. Yep. If everybody just sits down and sings "Give Peace a Chance" or walks around with a sign saying "AMERICA IS THE GREAT SATAN", maybe this and other wars will stop. Yep.

How about being in a march in support of the military? Marching against war doesn't accomplish anything. The show is gonna go on whether anybody likes it or not. Marching in support of the people in uniform is different. Contrary to popular belief, everybody in the military is not war-hungry. Everybody in the military is not eager to bust caps into a "gook"/"raghead"/whatever just to watch them die. It would be fair to say that there's plenty of people being sent over who don't believe in it. But they go. They do their job, not asking for anything in return except maybe a box of candy from home or a letter from a stranger that says "God bless you. We're thinking of you." The ones that don't want to be there have enough to worry about. They don't need ideas that everybody back home is marching and protesting against them.

You want to do something about the war? Try boosting the morale of the men and women actually over there. Let them know they are thought of and they will be welcomed home with open arms and not with anger and name-calling. Then, after it's all over, then you can get on Bush's case about education and the environment.

Rant OFF.

(By the way, for clarification, the above is not specifically directed at Lulu. I like Lulu. She made a post and I made a response. Nothing more should be read into it.)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2003 05:25 PM: Message edited by: crazy a ]</font>

As I remember, soldiers coming back from Vietnam were spit on, or otherwise shunned. It does seem that in the intervening time most people have understood how shameful that was and are able to separate America's policy-makers from those being called on to make the policy happen.

Bird, God bless you and keep you safe.

I support our soldiers and every person I know that's against the war has said the same thing. I know people that have been deployed or are about to be (including 'bird). I care about them and all the soldiers I don't know.

But, I think anti-war protests need to continue and need to be louder. Anti-war does not mean anti-soldier or anti-american. It means what it is...against the war. And the second best time to reiterate that opinion is now, during the war. Anti-war protesters have been expressing their support for troops, but no one listens.

And once this mess is over, people need to remember all this and vote their conscience. Maybe we'll put the truly elected guy in office this time. [img]wink.gif[/img]

My rant off.

And if it's not clear, this isn't directed at crazy, just a reply to all the posts. Crazy is one of my fave people here. We just differ in opinion on this issue. Otherwise, he's my twin.

(Separated at birth, of course. [img]wink.gif[/img] )

So Bran says protests still serve the purpose of letting the people know how they feel. I say they're good for getting a case of blistered feet from all that walking. Ok. People have protested war and protested war for who knows how long. Has it worked? Not to my knowledge. I'm sure one of you who is more informed on past issues can shed light on that.

And I somewhat disagree about "...but no one listens." I don't think it's not that no one listens, as much as no one can hear the support over shouts of "NO WAR FOR OIL!" or some other thing.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2003 09:35 PM: Message edited by: crazy a ]</font>

The problem is perception.

It is true that most anti-war people (including myself), very much do support the soldiers.

It is also true that ever since Vietnam, where the line between soldier and protests blurred that soldiers view protests against war as anti-military.

It is sad, because I think as a people we have grown to recognize who *makes* war is vastly different than who *fights* the war. I would have more respect for the war we are fighting, if the people who make the decision to fight in it, have something to lose, instead of the fine, young, brave men and women who *will* fight it.

I am currently putting together a care package for JD, oh and 'bird if you are reading, take lots of baby wipes and chapstick with you, those seem to be the two hottest commodities out there right now. In this care package I made up wallet cards, one side has the American Flag with the WTC in the background on a glorious sunny day. The other side has the Statue of Liberty from that same day, with the words Thank You above it. I'm sending JD half a dozen or so of these cards so he can share with his men.

The world is a scary place these days and we are fighting a war that will make it no less scary. Which is just sad.

Ahh, a place where people are nice when they talk about the war. I have been away too long.

As some one who does march in the peace rallies, I would argue that they do provide a visible forum from which our leaders can see some public opinion. Whether or not this is brushed off - up here in Canada, Cretien is certainly weighing in the opinion of the millions who have marched. The marches are being co-ordinated world wide, I think it's always important to speak up for peace whether or not it's possible (like we speak up for goodness, honesty, and other high ideals).

Also, war is a very tense time, when emotions ride high and people get scared. Marching in a rally is a way to channel those feelings into something positive. I know the second I heard about the bombing I marched to the US Consolute and chanted "Bring the troops home" with three hundred other people. Previous to that, I was wibbling on the couch and lashing at myself for being so self-indulgent. So I wouldn't call rallies useless - they may not do a lot for peace but they do a lot for people who believe in peace. Better that then going to bars and getting into fist fights because there's no other release [img]wink.gif[/img]

And I hope they send the troops home (even if it doesn't happen), this gigantic mess is not their doing or their responsibility.

Ditto!

Anti war protests are very important. It's how we make our voices and our opinions heard as citizens. Thank you 1st ammendment! The government and the world need to know that many of us in the United States do not agree with these actions. Maybe opposition is ignored by policymakers, but at least it is expressed!

As for supporting our troops, I don't know a single person that isn't hoping for their safe return. I think that's part of the issue. Who wants to see their friends and family sacrificed for a less that worthy cause? It sounds like some people are confusing opposition to war with opposition to our troops. 'No blood for oil' means Americans too!

Now that it's started, i just hope we get Saddam and finish it quickly. We can't turn back now. But I'm still morally troubled by this war and intend to continue making my feelings known.

(And BTW- if I have to hear another vague, snide, repetitive, condescending speech about 'partriotism' and 'good vs. evil' by our pseudo-president I'm gonna gag!)

In comparison with America, here in Britain we don't have much in the way of a written constitution to safeguard our democracy. But in the democracy we do have, one of our fundamental freedoms is the right to peacefully march in public to show our opinion. Now, maybe protests and marches won't stop wars taking place, and they certainly won't stop dictators or terrorists in distant lands, but they do show clearly that when our government takes or supports actions that are not clearly supported by the majority of the populace, we are dissatisfied. The right for us to show this dissatisfaction, and to make any and all under-represented opinions known is something that should be cherished and encouraged, whatever the outcome.

Thank you Lulu. Someone had to say that. (I would add that US has recently treated even their own allies as invalid... and this is so dangerous!)

Last month I was in Rome with my girlfriend and other 2 or 3 MILLIONS of people to demonstrate for peace, and I can tell you that was something. How can I make you understand what it was like to be there? So many different people, Americans and Palestinians, young punks and boy scouts, families with their little children, hundreds of mayors and administrators with their official gonfalons, thousands of ordinary people who'd never been to rallies before, labor unions and so many others, all melted in a thick rainbow sea...
And I KNOW it wasn't useless, because of the new consciuosness you could feel rouse around you then. Maybe it was similar to what people felt in Seattle a few years ago, but it was a different thing altogether, because just a few people in Rome would have defined theirselves as no or new global. It was something bigger. We felt like history had just stopped by for a second, and we had a short time, just to choose between the right of force and the force of rights. Those international rights which are slowly instituted notwithstanding the US governement, which is the first to pubblicly despise and oppose them.
European governements could have been decisive, we just got sure they could hear us loud.

It's so sad now, you know, and i'm not talking about the war or the peace movement. I think about you as my friends, and I used to live this board as a sanctuary, years ago, when my life was a blurry mess.
My anguish is as strong as if my best friends had been brainwashed.
I knew I could have felt uneasy returning here, but I missed you so much. And I needed to prove to myself I still love you.
I'm not afraid of war, I'm not afraid of tyrants and terrorists: I'm scared of the hate trying to grow in my heart. It's a daily fight, to erase it back to the anger from which is born.
I've never been anti-american, it's ridiculous, and I'm a quiet girl, but now every time I see a fighter flying over my head, so low I can see all it's missiles, I hear myself swearing out loud as I feel this huge hate blacken my chest... and I feel like crying.
Really, the only thing that pilot could do to make me proud of him is to get off and get drunk with me.
This is my problem, and I'm one of the quiet ones. I live in a western allied country, I like to read American comics, and I used to stay up at night to read and write on this board until I went to sleep thinking in American English... and I've gone this far. Just think about the ones who are not quiet, or who are not westerners.
What have you done? I mean, what has your governement done? Can you realize it? Will you still have the courage, next time (and God knows how I hope there won't be a next time), to ask: "Why do they hate us so much?". I'm not simply talking about Iraq of course (who knows who's next), but of respect toward all the rest of the world.

Yes, my friends, let's hope this war to be brief, and not just to spare their/your lives. The more it lasts, the more like a cancer hate spreads itself, making the world a far worse place to live in. And a more violent one.

I feel the urge to hug you all, and hold you tight.


P.S. I'm happy to see you're around, Jadian. You're one of the voices I'd missed most.
P.P.S. David A, Italian constitution guarantees our freedom of speech and of demonstration, and also claims that "Italy repudiates war as a way of resolving international quarrels", but this doesn't stop our governement to thread on it...

There is no unspoken axiom. It is plain as day. Let me spell it out for you.

UN resolutions were passed that clearly stated that because of past transgressions Iraq was to disarm, open up to inspectors completely or face military action.

Did they disarm? Not on your life.

Did they open up to inspectors completely? Not hardly.

What're we supposed to do. "Awww, you're a swiwwy wittle coutwy. Yes you are! Yes you are! Awwww, you made a boo-boo. We'll just overlook that like the past 12+ boo-boos you made!"

Sorry, no. None of the "options" presented by any other country, esp. France, Germany and the Russia is new. They have all been tried. Several times.

The unspoken axiom here is that we should always give in and never, ever, ever, follow through on the verbage of the resolutions passed. The problem is that makes those resolutions farces. Tell me, do you think any regime that has attacked its neighbors in the past and has made it plain they will do so again if given the chance would really care about the following.

By UN resolution blah blah blah Iraq is to disarm all weapons of mass distruction, allow inspectors unrestricted access to all areas at a moments notice and do so before such-and-such date and time or else! Uhm, or else we'll pass another resolution giving them another 2 years! And then another for 2 years... and then another.

This isn't "They thumbed their noses at us, hit 'em" this is "Ok, they deserve another chance."

"Ok, they broke that one, here's one more."

"They're still having problems. Here's another."

"Nope, they're still not doing it. And another."

"One more."

"Can I have a stamp here that says, And one more chance. Thanks."

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

"And one more chance"

How many's that? Hrm, you know, I don't think they're ever going to shape up.

You never answered my question, When is enough, enough.

We've given them chances.

We've tried other methods.

We've given them more chances.

We've tried even more methods.

Name a number, When is enough enough?

20?

25?

100?

In what time frame.

I'm serious. I want to know. Because otherwise it is just a broken record that sounds like this:

"And one more chance"

How many Kurds need to be gassed in their sleep? How many Shi' Mulahs have to be shot in the back of the head? How many Iraqs have to be imprisoned before you stop chanting "Give peace a chance" and understand that you may hate war and killing and death but these sick pathetic bastards would murder their own children to stay in a positon of power.

Yeah, right "And one more chance" as timorins' and Tutsies moan in their mass graves as the genocide train roles on.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2003 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Vox ]</font>

Vox, I absolutely adore you, but give me a break.

We sanction people like Saddam all the f**king time. We create monsters and then get pissy when they stop doing what we want them to.

We are destoying Iraq for many reasons, and we *may* ultimately do some good there amongst this mess. But the reasons we are there are not politically altruistic. Many of the soldiers may be there to free the people, but our government is there because:
- our economy is a disaster;
- Saddam tried to assissinate our leaders daddy and he is pissed. And our president was stupid enough to say it out loud publically on at least one occasion;
- They have a hell of a oil field. And oil makes the engines run, because solar energy is renewable and therefore not profitable.
- We can't bomb the hell out anyone else right now and we *need* to show we are a superpower dag-nab-it.

Yeah, those countries have oil, oooh, they must all be having cute chicks feed them grapes. The reality is that a small percentage of people have money in those countries, to many food and water is a luxery. And those are the people we are bombing the hell out of. Not intentionally, but we are. If we held the ourselves accountable to the standards we hold other countries, our polititions would be doing some hard time. There is a reason why many of them have to get clearance from the state department to go on vacation in outer mongolia, they have to see if their butts would end up in a international tribunal or worse.

This is a political war and shame on us for that. If this was a friggin war to save the people we would have done it when Bush Sr. or earlier was president.

Yeah, Saddam has ignored the resolutions. But bombing Iraq while N. Korea is testing it's nukes is a bit hypocritical no matter how you look at it.

G-d bless our troops and the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.

Asis, you know I just have to be me [img]smile.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> We sanction people like Saddam all the f**king time. We create monsters and then get pissy when they stop doing what we want them to.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, we do and so does every other country and weve done it both for altruistic and not so altuistic reasons. The Diff is we suck at it, and being the guilt ridden oprah fed mess we are we try to fix it. Should we just say sorry big mistake and walk away?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
- our economy is a disaster;
- Saddam tried to assissinate our leaders daddy and he is pissed. And our president was stupid enough to say it out loud publically on at least one occasion;
- They have a hell of a oil field. And oil makes the engines run, because solar energy is renewable and therefore not profitable.
- We can't bomb the hell out anyone else right now and we *need* to show we are a superpower dag-nab-it.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I) How does this help our economy? In what way? The Billions this will cost will destroy DubYa Just like it did his daddy.

II) He also tried to assissinate a president. I think we should of done the same. But of course that would of been against the rules. Ha! Mwhhaaa, Ha, sorry couldnt help it.

III) Yes, it's always about the oil. Of course no one has shown any crediable proof it is and thats because we know how effective the US goverment is at keeping a secret. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

IV) Please, this is just hypebole.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a political war and shame on us for that. If this was a friggin war to save the people we would have done it when Bush Sr. or earlier was president.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are ALL Political wars. We didn't do it with The Big Bush because he didnt have the balls and we thought destablisation of Iraq would ruin the oil market (See: Peace for oil!)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> N. Korea is testing it's nukes is a bit hypocritical no matter how you look at it.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

One nut case at a time. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2003 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Vox ]</font>

Thank God! Someone who can quote!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quite frankly, America is the biggest superpower in the world. There are too many countries under our "protection" </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and were such bad, bad people for being a superpower and protecting people. Bad superpower!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> No matter how many times Bush says that the goverment will be in the hands of the Iraqi people </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and the other 60 heads of states who have said the same thing are are just mesmerised by our superpowers!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it's an outright lie </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the vast array of other nations we rule with an Iron fist agree! Um or is this another crystal ball projection?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Simple economics. War stimulates the economy. The stock market shot up over 200 points once war officially started. Bush has screwed up the economy so much that he feels this is a valid way to fix it. Pffft.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes maybe in 1940, but name which war since has caused an american economy to prosper? I'm no fan of The Bush, but he's a victem of the Tech Bubble. He hasn't screwed up anything, he just ain't fixed it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's nothing we haven't done before. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet. I guess Saddam has reason to be paranoid with security.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is a known fact that Bush had a private meeting with the heads of the American oil companies to decide who would take charge of the Iraqi oil. Congress is pissed about this because they were not notified, and only heard of it after the fact.
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Cite? proof? well known to whom?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Going to war with North Korea will be BAD </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">North Korea is a terrirtory of China </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they might disagree but I don't [img]smile.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I've heard things from a friend of mine who has connections high up in the US Military about some tactics that are being talked about already, and they make me sick. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Unnamed sorces' " aren't they just so handy! But to give credit where its due and its no secret we have "Tactics" in case we get invaded by friggin' Togoland. It's called being prepared.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> My only comfort is that there's no way in hell Bush will be in office for a second term.
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Yes, And we won't have to worry about an america president having a hidden agenda again!

Rofl! yeah maybe we'll get a democrat! ROTFFL!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Vox:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is a known fact that Bush had a private meeting with the heads of the American oil companies to decide who would take charge of the Iraqi oil. Congress is pissed about this because they were not notified, and only heard of it after the fact.
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Cite? proof? well known to whom?
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Point. I swear to you that I heard it on the news at some point between Wednesday and Friday morning. After spending an hour looking for an article that might mention the event, I have given up. Whether the reporter made it up, was forced to bury the story, or if it was a product of my deliousions remains to be seen. At this point, if it's not part of a major story that is supported by every news station then it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

OK, I'm not in this discussion. I believe I have made my position clear, and it's not going to change. And I completely understand that my having a position is not going to change the minds of people on "the other side" of the issue. Besides which, the points for and against have been made much more eloquently, by people much more informed than me, than I could ever hope to do myself.

But I hope that in stating and disputing our positions, that both sides remember that we are both fighting for the same thing. Democracy. The hawks believe that the war must be fought on the world stage, the doves are fighting just as hard to keep democracy, freedom of speech, and all that stuff firmly in place here at home.

The means and the ways differ, but I think that everyone here (I won't speak for Bush [img]wink.gif[/img] ) wants the same thing. Freedom.

All I ask is that we remember this.

I have to concur with that. Gollum and I went around and around about this last time. (Speaking of which, I know she said her internet time was limited, but I thought she would've shown up by now. [img]wink.gif[/img] )

I've said about all I can say, and I think my position is clear on the whole thing. (If not, feel free to ask me questions here or on PM.)

Many of us say being diplomatic is the way. Some of us feel there's a time to be diplomatic and a time to use force. We're obviously not gonna agree about what methods are best and when.

But I think it is safe to say that, in general, we all want the same thing in the end.

Peace in the end, and our folks home safe.

[img]wink.gif[/img]

(See how good I'm being? Not one word about Bush being hoisted on his or anyone else pitard!)

(I just blew it, didn't I? Damn!)

(I don't know. What's a pitard?) LOL

(Please excuse me, I misspelled the word. According to Dictionary.com :

pe?tard Pronunciation Key (p-t?rd)
n.
1. A small bell-shaped bomb used to breach a gate or wall.
2. A loud firecracker.


[French p?tard, from Old French, from peter, to break wind, from pet, a breaking of wind, from Latin pditum, from neuter past participle of pdere, to break wind. See pezd- in Indo-European Roots.]

Word History: The French used p?tard, ?a loud discharge of intestinal gas,? for a kind of infernal engine for blasting through the gates of a city. ?To be hoist by one's own petard,? a now proverbial phrase apparently originating with Shakespeare's Hamlet (around 1604) not long after the word entered English (around 1598), means ?to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own devices.? The French noun pet, ?fart,? developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, ?fart.?)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 22, 2003 09:17 AM: Message edited by: erisesoteric ]</font>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Vox:
Yes, we do and so does every other country and weve done it both for altruistic and not so altuistic reasons. The Diff is we suck at it, and being the guilt ridden oprah fed mess we are we try to fix it. Should we just say sorry big mistake and walk away?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I try so hard not to get into these conversations, but I feel that I must put my two cents in.

Quite frankly, America is the biggest superpower in the world. There are too many countries under our "protection". I'm just a youngin', but even I remember some of the tyrants that we've helped to put into power, just to have a foreign government that owes us loyalty. I fear what is going to happen to Iraq. No matter how many times Bush says that the goverment will be in the hands of the Iraqi people after this war, it's an outright lie. We will set up a new leader, with a new form of government. We will move our troops in permanently, and Iraq will become a puppet state. I don't approve of Saddam, but I'm not sure the next guy we put in place is going to be a shining hero, either.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I) How does this help our economy? In what way? The Billions this will cost will destroy DubYa Just like it did his daddy.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple economics. War stimulates the economy. The stock market shot up over 200 points once war officially started. Bush has screwed up the economy so much that he feels this is a valid way to fix it. Pffft.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
II) He also tried to assissinate a president. I think we should of done the same. But of course that would of been against the rules. Ha! Mwhhaaa, Ha, sorry couldnt help it.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's nothing we haven't done before. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that it hasn't happened yet. I guess Saddam has reason to be paranoid with security.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
III) Yes, it's always about the oil. Of course no one has shown any crediable proof it is and thats because we know how effective the US goverment is at keeping a secret. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a known fact that Bush had a private meeting with the heads of the American oil companies to decide who would take charge of the Iraqi oil. Congress is pissed about this because they were not notified, and only heard of it after the fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> N. Korea is testing it's nukes is a bit hypocritical no matter how you look at it.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
One nut case at a time. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Going to war with North Korea will be BAD. It will be far worse than the first Korean War. North Korea is a terrirtory of China, and under their protection. If we attack Korea, we will be at war with China. Bush wouldn't be unhappy about that. He's not very good at hiding how much he hates the Commies. I've heard things from a friend of mine who has connections high up in the US Military about some tactics that are being talked about already, and they make me sick. This thing with Iraq will be pretty compared to what will happen with Asia.

I wish there were a little island I could move to. At least then I wouldn't be ashamed at what my own country is turning into. My only comfort is that there's no way in hell Bush will be in office for a second term.

"Intestinal gas". Jeez, next thing you know, we'll be talking about TAMPONS....