If we could somehow turn back time.... say... 10 years.... would history repeat itself? And if you say yes....
doesn't that then mean we have no free will?
Just question.... wondering responses.
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If we could somehow turn back time.... say... 10 years.... would history repeat itself? And if you say yes....
doesn't that then mean we have no free will?
Just question.... wondering responses.
I don't believe history would repeat itself.
why not?
Cause I believe more in luck then fate, and with that being the case, luck can change. Nothing would be the same cause for every action, there is an opposite reaction. All it would take is a few things to pan out different to change the out come. However, major events may still take place for the simple fact that most people and businesses use redundantly. So, 9/11 could still happen, just it might be the second plane that the crew stopped instead of the 4th...
so basically you are a non-determinist?
If time were to move backwards, I would try to write down the winning lotto numbers first.
If history repeats itself, I will be rich. I would use that money to conquer the world!
But Gary.... why wouldn't history repeat itself?
I mean... everyone made those decisions based on certain factors at the given time, yes?
Let's say, for example, the first time you wrote your own song. You wrote it the way you did, because of certain factors at the time.... how good you were, your style, sound, etc..
now if we rolled the clock back, to that exact moment of when you were writing that song, you'd write it the same way, because the same problems/situations would be present once again, the same things that made you write it the way you did the first time, correct?
Same thing with 9-11. No one would know anything more, or anything less.. and given the situation, wouldn't it work that people, based on the SAME circumstances, would then choose the SAME course of action?
Well, it wasn't luck that I'm such a good song writer. I was thinking more along the lines of lucky breaks. Let's say in 1996 you almost crashed your car into a guard rail. But luckly your tires held to the wet road. This time around your tires might not hold, and you may crash into that guard rail.
So tell me... why would they not hold?
they held originally..
the tires would be in exactly the same condition, the road, exact same... everything would be exactly the same.... so why wouldn't they hold?
it'd be the same situation... wouldn't they hold again?
if you were to go back to tomorrow...
and examine the events of that day in comparrison
to the events you knew would happen,
they would evolve in the same manner as before.
it has nothing to do with free will, nor determinism.
also, let me buffer my previous post by saying
that... i am assuming that when you go back in
time, the persons/events you are (re)witnessing
has no comprehension that you are aware of
'future' events.
yea, you have no knowledge of the fact you've gone back in history...
but if we did that and it were to occur in the same manner, wouldn't it then prove that there is in actuallity only one reality down which we would go down?
no...
because, based on your hypothetical, you are
in the present... going back...
it has nothing to do with future events (from
the point you went back in time).
the future is still unknown.
hmmm.... one more thing...
when i responded to this thread, it was with
the intention that we were speaking of examining
someone other than youself.
the reason is because i wanted to avoid a
paradox... which would occur based on your
reply:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">yea, you have no knowledge of the fact you've gone back in history...
but if we did that and it were to occur in the same manner, wouldn't it then prove that there is in actuallity only one reality down which we would go down? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
if YOU went back in time... your future would
be sealed, essentially, in continuously going
back in time at the same point... over and over.
and since the premise is that you will not
alter the course of history... you are doomed
to continuously go back in time EACH TIME you
reach that point.
so its best, for the sake of this thread, to
use a third party.
OK..... I'll put it like this. You flip a coin, you have a 50% of it being heads. I believe if you went back in time, the coin could be tails at that same flip.
Gary, you're walking right into the paradox which Shatzy just talked about!
no "you" .... think third party
which is ... hm..... still..... it all works together to create the "reality" we know now.. I think it's a paradox however you look at it!
It's not a paradox with my reality. Cause the factors that made you go back in time could change. Thus, you may not go back in time the second time around.
If you really want to discuss this, you have to look at the movement of atoms. You can not predicted their movement, they always change. Even under the same circumcises, an atom may go another way. This has been tested and proven while attempting fusion. So since everything is made up of atoms, I believe things are not, and could not be predetermined.
lets look at it like this...
on monday you decide to go skiing with your friends,
whom you have known to enjoy taking skiing trips
and blah blah blah.
by wednesday you are skiing down a slope --
and falling, inevidably breaking your leg.
if you went back in time on monday...
you would still be taking that skiing trip.
why?
because nothing up until monday has changed.
you would still be going, still be breaking
your leg.
think of the time as a linear path or tract...
if you go back to a certain point on that same
tract, you are still going to perform the
inevitable motions you once performed because
nothing has changed previously.
it seems to me that you, gary, are seeing the
movement back in time as a future event...
full of possibilities that may or may not happen.
this cannot be.
and about the coin toss... it seems 50/50,
but it really isn't. not when you consider the
real meaning of 'chance'. there is no 'chance'.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by ?Gary?:
It's not a paradox with my reality. Cause the factors that made you go back in time could change. Thus, you may not go back in time the second time around.
If you really want to discuss this, you have to look at the movement of atoms. You can not predicted their movement, they always change. Even under the same circumcises, an atom may go another way. This has been tested and proven while attempting fusion. So since everything is made up of atoms, I believe things are not, and could not be predetermined.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Err, as far as i remember non-determinism has not yet been proven, all that is known is that it's not sure if brownian motion is deterministic or non-deterministic.
And if you are referring to the heisenberg problem that you cannot measure both speed and place at the same time, that does not mean that the universe is not deterministic, it only means that we cannot determine what the atoms will do.
grrrrrrrrrr........
You may not break you leg cause you might fall differently. (Atoms will do different stuff the second time around.)
And no one is allowed to disprove anything i say that was proven.......
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by ?Gary?:
(Atoms will do different stuff the second time around.)
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
going back in time does not necessitate a 'second time around'.
this is what i'm saying.
okay, look at it this time:
there is a big line of dominoes.
the line starts falling, and you tape it all.
Then you rewind the tape back, that's what shatzy means with going back in time, you go back to a period, with _everything_ the same. Which means the dominoes are just gonna fall, just like every other domino.
Now what you mean is that there is randomness in each and every atom for some reason. If i have two atoms, one in rest, and the other hitting the first one on a certain vector, why can't i compute the new trajectories of the two atoms, given enough calculation containing the magnetic forces, the weak force, gravity , newtonian physics et al?
Where does the randomness come from?
Gary, you've entirely missed the concept, and atoms DO do the same things... well, they can, given the right circumstance.. but atoms compose muscles, and neurons, which are what we use to make movement, so the contraction of the muscles when you break your leg, is caused by neural patters, etc. Our body thus controls the individual atoms.
causing the break to be identical blah blah
but my main pitch here is you missed the main point.
and you drag it out yet.
Boo.
is that your contribution to this thread???
i figured someone would see how it relates.
guess its not you.
anyone else?
why don't you just contribute to this thread
in a more constructive manner... as opposed
to direct relation/association?
like.... oh, i dunno....... YOUR OPINION [img]mad.gif[/img]
BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Nobody has ever simplified the whole question and gone back to watch their old VHS collection of Back To The Future I, II & III?
i thought about those movies when i was first
responding to this thread... which made me
realize the dire need to make the whole scenario
in 3rd person... rather than 1st person.
there are tons of flaws in that/those movies...
which we all know, i'm sure.
Still, in the first one, there were a couple moments when the "future-self" watched what his "past-self" was doing. O'course there were problems; especially the "slowly-fading photo" angle, rather than fucking up their future so they vanish "POOF" in an instant.
[img]mad.gif[/img] I challenge you to name ANY flaw in the BttF trilogy!
err? can i start?
they time-travel.
Challenge complete.
Thanks for playing!
do i get a prize now?
A free pass out of here.
Here you go!
'holee'.... 'gosh'..... 'whoa'
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!
*at least you coulda given him the free ones*
and WTF is she wearing a watch?!?!?! [img]eek.gif[/img]
There is going to be a sobriety checkpoint on April 26th on La palma in front of the Walter Knott elementary school. I am sure that everyone that drives through there is going to wish they could go back in time.
Especially all the dumbasses that are driving around drunk.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by shatzy:
and WTF is she wearing a watch?!?!?! [img]eek.gif[/img] </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dur... silly she is wearing a watch so she can tell what "fucking" time it is, or is that..if it is "time" too. It is one of those new fangled bling-bling porno watches.
CYA