Rebounding Surfaces

In order to maximize time, I practice a lot of singles in my car driving on my steering wheel--good rebounding surface--and on my old Ludwig pad watching the tube.
I can get a real groove happening, especially on the pad, yet when moving to the snare the "groove and control" don't transfer like I would have hoped for.

At work, in my car, and at home during evening hours the snare drum itself isn't a reality due to volume concerns, so I opt for the pad or another rebounding surface like the mouse pad at work.

Can practicing on non-drum surfaces actually have a negative effect to a drum's rebound?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 22, 2003 01:58 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

You need to build up the snap up control of the rebound, your used to the rebound of the pad. Snap ups are are something you need to practice a motion of,

RLRL RLRL
DUDU DUDU

So the R would go down and then the next stroke would be snapped up using the folcrum (index finger/thumb). But to get the motion down first use the wrist. You canreverse the motion also, U D.

I don't know is this helps, but if there's not a pad, pillow or a drumset around, I usually practice on my knees/legs when sitting down... The rebound is similar to that of a pillow so you'll have to work a bit harder to get the stroke happening...

Downside is: Your knees might get sore after a while, although I'm pretty used to it... [img]smile.gif[/img]

And after playing a lot on surfaces with no rebound, you kind of develop the feel for what kind of stroke you need to be doing when going back to a pad...at least in my experience...

Joe Morello told me first-hand that it's actually dangerous to practice on a pillow. It's apparently easy to hurt one's self. There's always gonna be a difference between the feels of a practice pad and an actual drum head. I don't think it's real wise to actually apply the idea of physically lifting the stick back into position after executing a stroke. Such a concept flies in the face of the whole rebound approach. The stick should simply bounce back into position. To compensate for the drum head's apparent loss of rebound, simply throw the stick down a little harder with the wrist to create a better rebound and make sure your grip doesn't impede anything. I hope you dudes don't think I'm discounting any of your opinions. I value everthing everyone says on this forum for the most part. Just throwing in my two cents.

My approach comes directly from Joe Porcaro, it's taught at both PIT and LAMA. (percussion institute. LA Music Academy)

I seem to remember Dennis saying that he practiced on pillows. It would follow that as you will get no help whatsoever from a pillow as far as rebounds go, if you do manage to gain strength and snap in your wrists when practicing on a pillow or cusion, when you transfer this technique to the kit, you will be like Buddy!! - I guess that's the theory anyway. Personally I go with 'accepting the rebound' of the stick and letting the stick do the work as if bouncing a ball. I use wrists and fingers to help the stick, but as much as possible, I try to let the stick 'dance' on it's own. I also use Down, Up, Taps, where the Down stroke is the accented and main stroke and the up and taps are played pp.

Randy,

It sounds as if maybe you were irritated about my contradictory statements. I'm not out to disprove anyone. However, Joe Morello is THE guy for hand development. He knows his shit better than anyone on the planet. Joe Porcaro would probably agree.

Pocket...are you using a Real Feel wheel. Just wondering? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Think of it like this: When you need to send men into space and they neeed to get used to weightlessness then what do they use? Something that has the SAME effect/feel as the REAL deal.

All that pillow talk is bull-shit (imho). If you take the principal described as a Bouncing ball which is what weckl is NOW preaching and, is the CORRECT way because... you are letting the stick NOT YOURSELF do the work for you. It stands to reason that DIFFERENT muscles MUST be involved on non rebound surfaces.

I wonder....Do the Harlem globe trotters Deflate their balls to practice for non bounce against bounce? I'd be surprised if they weren't all at the correct pressure. The way they're supposed to be used.
But then....i could be wrong [img]frown.gif[/img]

So, we have a handful of variables here; the rebound of the surface and the choice of allowing the stick to rebound or to actively pick-up the stick. Your technique must change with the playing surface, not just when moving from pillow to pad or to snare but also when moving from snare to toms (unless your toms have the same tension as your snare!). Using the rebound method is great on the snare and pad. However, once you move to a surface with less rebound you must move into more of a "snap-it-up" mode. It's not all or none but usually somewhere in between.

good point me2.

i think people should just do whatever they feel comfortable with and whatever works best for them.

jeff porcaro uses snap ups...
weckl uses all rebound...
dennis practiced on pillows...
lang uses all wrists...
vinnie uses everything...

Hi all,
This is a VERY interesting thread.
But what Andy's just said has summed it up for me!
I worked for months using the 'Weckl/Gruber' Bounce technique.. Great for snare but when you move onto the toms its just frustrating to me.
I've found with practice you can make the 'snap-up' type technique on toms sound and feel very relaxed!

Lee

WOW! Nice comments drummers out there in cyberland.

The balance of information applied to each particular drummer was very interesting. Porcaro was a groove player who focused mainly on hats & snare...toms were compliments to the groove. So, pop-ups were essential, especially in his ghost note approach on shuufles. Weckl is all over the kit constantly with his music and his tuning method allows for more bounce. Chambers does seem to be able to explode off a dime and I never saw it before, but I can see the pillow practice.

My original point really had to do with comfort and repetition. When I play on my steering wheel driving, I am logging a lot of time, up to an hour a day, five days a week. I get used to (comfort) the bouncy surface of my BMW factory wheel and the angle of my arm hitting the surface while driving.
In front of the tube, I have a hard bouncy Ludwig pad that I can master sitting on the couch with the angle of my hand over the side on the pad.
The other "evening" surface I have used is a Boogie Board (I guess ya got to live in So Calif???) primarily used for wave riding in the ocean. It has a large surface with a medium rebound allowing for a simulated snare and drum surface. Lay it on the coffee table and go to town.

Once I am on these surfaces over time, I really become familiar with them (comfort zone) and feel great finger control and progress...I can control with each finger which is what I mostly practice during these periods. I go through the Stone Killer exercise from Morello's book, Master Studies and other various patterns.

Pop-ups is what I have practiced the least. Pillows have been a large part of my routine...again, I have had more control and "feel" with them then on an actual snare at times! Humbling thought to realize in times past I spent almost a 3:1 time factor on non-drum surfaces--driving, work, evening at home, etc.

I am leaning at this point on style of playing. I mostly play pop rock/R&B/Funk, so pop-ups and some needed stick control coming out of time is needed. When you're not playing a lot of notes, the ones you play need to comminicate! After the song is over it's blow time--an attempt to sound like Steve in his latest solo post.

One last thought...I am fascinated by drumming and body types. I made a past a long time ago on a thread about diet mentioning the three basic body types; Ectomorphs: a light build with slight muscular development(Chad Wackerman) Mesomorphs: a husky, muscular build (Weckl) Endomorphs: characterized by a heavy, rounded build with shoulders usually narrower than their hips.(Dennis Chambers).
These are general categories, I mean Weckl isn't exactly husky or muscular, but categorically, that's where he fit.
My point...most people naturally develop and put a lot of foundation on their natural strengths. I'm more muscular than Weckl, but not as thick as Dennis. I am very athletic and have always "muscled" my way around the kit. Finese wasn't part of my early playing days, pounding was. As my musical interests expanded and I got into ghost noting subtleties, I had to rethink everything. This is when my natural dynamics needed an examination because playing Loverboy covers became real OLD. The Purdie 1/2 time shuffle was something I couldn't get out of my head and I "wanted it." So I had to keep my natural strengths while adopting the other needed skills (this was my drum video phase). Hand technique became a real interest and a world of theory opened up.
It is true, one has to explore many doors before openning his own. It was confusing to me, but I feel I am really narrowing it down to some detailed methods, and the rebounding surface thing is my current observation.
Sorry--way too much info here [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 22, 2003 02:37 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

good thread ! on the car practice pad thing, it would be sweet if a company sold a "dash pad" that would secure on almost any dash & have like 3 triggered sounds. but i guess the liability issue would be a biOtch.

when i had a different (translation: POS) car [img]graemlins/car.gif[/img] , i cut up a older 8" real feel & velcro'd 3x3" pieces on both sides of my steering wheel -- this is ON the dash mind you, not the actual wheel. at the time, the ford escort dash set-up was perfect for a left & right dash hit area...it was good for "zone" accuracy (small area to hit), chops & endurance. especially when i would go from Miami to St. Augustine (5 hrs), i would walk out of the car with popeye arms sometimes. [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 22, 2003 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Geoff_G ]</font>

Awesome Geoff!!! On my old Plymouth Colt back in '89 I transformed the entire dashboard into a giant practice pad. I used to drive highway 30 from Warsaw to Ft Wayne, IN and beyond. A daily does of practice on a loney road for 120 mins a day. Being left handed, it was great to develop my weak hand. I always loved the LOOKS... [img]graemlins/grrr.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
from the locals on the road. To this day, I will argue I had better control drving w/my knees as my "alert" status and reactions were at a peak!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 22, 2003 11:25 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

You can tell from Dennis' sound that he practiced on pillows.

You could work your upstrokes just by doing accents on the last note of a figure. rrrR lllL etc.

You certainly will not hurt yourself doing that. I have never personally just practiced upstrokes alone, I've always done it in the manner above.

there are a TON of drumcorps exercises that will work both strokes without hurting yourself. Inverts probably being the most obvious. (inverted flam taps)

Now I'm thoroughly convinced ALL drummers are crazy. I play barehanded on the crosspiece of the steering wheel with the backs of my hands striking the inside of the top of the wheel (at approximately eleven o'clock and one o'clock). Get some pretty cool rhythms happening, especially if I turn a blinker on for the hell of it so I can solo against an ostinato while using the horn as my crash cymbal. Have to be careful not to use the accelerator as my bass pedal though. I carry sticks in my car (of course) to practice twirling at stop lights or when I pull up alongside cute chicks. [img]cool.gif[/img]

U guys r whacked [just like your dashes/steerin wheels]!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[PS - i did a lotta that sh-- too - & at 1 time, i got to be darned good at drivin w my knees [img]wink.gif[/img] ; & i've started several dashboards to crackin' in my day [img]eek.gif[/img] ... hope no insurance reps r browsing this [img]wink.gif[/img] ]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 23, 2003 02:04 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Fuse and Pocket, tell me more about this "knee control" technique. [img]wink.gif[/img]

I can honestly say I can drive my stick w/o hands! I have the timing of the shift down to a feel and I can just "stick it" while driving w/my knees. OK...turns. Got that down as well. Hard 90 degree turns I haven't mastered, but then, I'm not trying to practice this technique...just that when you're in the "Pocket" and that tunes is rushin', it's hard to let go. In my youth..19YO, I did bump someone one the 405 in 5mph traffic. Always regretted that. So, I mostly now try to focus on the long drive w/o stop, but in LA, that's an oxymoron! Hmmm, no.....I'm the moron! [img]redface.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 23, 2003 02:16 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

Shhhhh... It's much like ancient proverb; or like sacred Colaiuta Technique & Concept Instrctnl Vid - it is secret, held tight by only masta sitting on high mountain perch...much practice, grasshoppa, MUCH practice; until your knee-drive Way of the Wrist & Fist gung-fu is MUCH betta than others' silly, so-called gung-fu [mouth & words out of sync].... [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 23, 2003 02:24 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I heard Dennis used to play singles with hammers on a telephone book. And he would stop when he made a hole all the way to the last page.

I once read that jeff used to put his hands into a bucket of Ice after a show because his hands were killing him.
Was that correct technique? Could that be from doing snap ups?

For a man as young as Jeff he may have had arthritis. My hands hurt after a long session too because I have degenerative arthritis, inherited from my mother.

Possibly 5/8?????

Speaking of porcaro. That track he played on pink floyds album according to this site was Mother.
Look Here!

Those credits are in 'strong contrast' to the Pink Floyd book I read. Keltner did most of the drumming and Mason might've played a few things (according to the book, not me!) Richard Wright allegedly didn't play a note on the album because he'd been fired from the Floyd after the 1977 tour for his inordinate love of nose candy. Plastic septums, anyone?

Now i'm not saying that you said he played on this or that 5/8 and i know you know that. Its just a posting of what seems in this day an age of whats true and whats not and sometimes we never really do get to the bottom of it.

I didn't hear the Chink of jeffs hands into a bucket of ice after the track so, i wouldn't like to presume anything as i wasn't actually there.
(Like vinnie using d'ose gretsch's the naughty boy) [img]smile.gif[/img]
hmm...i'll have one of d'ose septums please *sniff-sniff* [img]wink.gif[/img]

In response to your post about the Globetrotters, Me2, I have this to say:

No. Basketball players don't play with deflated basketballs to get used to a real one, but they DO lift weights. Football linemen practice against padded mounts (I don't know what they're called). The idea behind this is to overcompensate - build enough strength to make the "real deal" easier.

While some drummers may work out, most generally don't (to aid their drumming, at least). However, quite a few drummers tell of how they bike or do calf raises to build their legs up for double bass - is that bad? Playing on a pillow simply builds muscle [a lot faster than on a surface with lots of rebound].

I would like to see some evidence that playing on a pillow is actually damaging - until then, I'll continue to believe playing on a pillow is as damaging to one's hands as swimming is to one's legs.

I would think the reason whoever said pillows would be damaging is, you're obviously going to have to grip more because there's no rebound. You're making both strokes. So, it would be easy if you weren't careful to hold on too tight, which will damage your hands.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Manos:
In response to your post about the Globetrotters, Me2, I have this to say:

No. Basketball players don't play with deflated basketballs to get used to a real one, but they DO lift weights.
Me2*****Thanks manos....you're actually taking away from the point though. That BEING, bouncing a ball at it CORRECT pressure which it should be at and playing on a drum with sticks and feeling the NATURAL bounce. Unless you want to throw a 5lb dumbell onto the basket ball to compensate or add weights to your sticks?
We're NOT bodybuilders are we? The muscle we need ISN'T BULK muscle is it? **********


Football linemen practice against padded mounts (I don't know what they're called). The idea behind this is to overcompensate - build enough strength to make the "real deal" easier.
Me2***** manos we aint football linesmen either!

They'd use REAL people if it wouldn't damage them, those things are a cheaper alternative and longer lasting and dont sue.
When they push those things they tend to go back..does a human being do that or do they move from side to side? So, Its not the same as the REAL thing is it ...in reality. I understand what your're saying but its not the same. ******

While some drummers may work out, most generally don't (to aid their drumming, at least).
However, quite a few drummers tell of how they bike or do calf raises to build their legs up for double bass - is that bad?
Me2*****I haven't done a survey on drummers and excercise so i cant comment. yes i've seen the interviews (VERY few) of some drummers who Bike ride to excercise their legs.
I didn't say excercise was bad in anyway shape or form. The question IS....DO they need to or, is it a personal thing?
The case could then be said: What about the great D/ble bass players who DON'T excercise and yet..have the SAME if not better ability maybe in some cases? Are THEY wrong? *****************

Playing on a pillow simply builds muscle [a lot faster than on a surface with lots of rebound].
Me******It may well build muscle manos but is it the CORRECT muscle?
I dont know if you know about Physical therapy but theres a popular ball called a swissball/gymball/powerball/pilates ball thats used for excercise. Just using one as a chair can IMPROVE the muscles in your Abdomen without even Lifting weights. Muscles that you never even knew you had by just sitting there not straining.********

I would like to see some evidence that playing on a pillow is actually damaging - until then, I'll continue to believe playing on a pillow is as damaging to one's hands as swimming is to one's legs.
Me2*****I dont think i said Playing on a pillow damages you from what i remember? Its YOUR choice to do as you wish manos. My opinion and thats ALL it is, is that playing on a pillow is Bullshit. BTW. I use silent nights so they dont disturb the neighbors [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for swimming, thats an excellent excercise as your WHOLE BODY is supported by the water (you're unsupported using pillows)so you are not STRAINING any muscle.

My point was THIS. You play a drum/cymbals...practice on the surface that you will be playing on. Thats what i consider beneficial. leave the pillow in the Bass drum.

It doesn't matter what you do at the end of the day....you'll be wherever you are because you can only go at the speed of Life. You can rush to build that extra muscle but, whats the GUARANTEE that it'll work? It might work for one it might not work for another. If it feels good for you..Do it.
Now..Should I blow up that doll i was bought for xmas or wait till the Real deal gets home. *Huff-puff..Huff-puff*

thank you for your time. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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I use all the strokes depending on the feel. I dont believe there is a right or wrong way, whether it be bounce or snap ups, its all down to the energy from within that makes you express the desired sound. Once again... technique verses feel.

My view is similar to Andy's... Gotta be able to efficiently roll on your 18" floor as well as on your 13" piccolo. Let me end here, 'cause i'll be repeating what some of you already wrote... Nice thread!

Practicing in your car... Driving with my knee... HA HA HA!! I am into that big time too!! My dash board is somewhay marked up too... I stay away from hitting the steering wheel though... I always fear the "air bag" might get triggered and blow in my face with the sticks up my nose. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]