9-11 "victims" are they really victims?
I think not!
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9-11 "victims" are they really victims?
I think not!
in thinking about my reply to this topic...
i realized that i was bound and condemned by
the definition (or loss of a concise definition)
to the term 'victim'.
what clearly defines a 'victim'?
where is the line drawn?
which victims?
the people who lost their lives in the towers?
the people who lost their lives on planes?
the people who lost their lives trying to rescue others?
america?
the people who hijacked the plane?
by the way. the new WTC buildings are so egotistically ridiculous, arrogant and 'heroic' that i am quite sure we'll experience a bit of de ja vu in years to come.
all those Qs are what i'm trying to determine...
er... when i use the term 'victim'.
i'm not really sure what constitutes a 'victim'.
Would people who think they are a victim be a victim?
it seems so.
but that can only be true from a 1st person's sense...
as in "what do i think of myself?"
but what about 3rd person?
as in "what do i think about he/she.... him/her... them?"
For some reason i'm getting the overpowering urge to get a dictionary and see the 'formal' definition of victim, seeing how it's a (not excusively) human view of things and not something an sich.
I could say I was victimized by a smog technician, who crashed my car while he was driving it, and then
refused to pay to fix it, or to even acknowledge responsibility.
But I HATE to call myself a victim, because victim means I have accepted my fate and won't try and change or correct what has happened.
Yes, the WTC casualties were victims because they many had no way to escape.
However, one could also say that using a cell phone to sell shares in venture capital projects that ultimately scar land and harm environmentally pristine and delicate ecosystems half way across the world is also a form of victimization.
Perhaps the WTC casualties, and lets add all of the countries partaking in the Industrial Revolution, are victims of largess. We do our jobs, not having a true say in what the job is, and if we don't do our job, we will be homeless.
Just following orders? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there's always deathQuote:
Originally posted by Alex:
Yes, the WTC casualties were victims because they many had no way to escape.
but no, the 'casualties' of the wtc were not vitcims...
as it is incomplete to generalize.... mainly because
only a handfull of people genuinely understood
that they were about to die.... THEY were victims...
those in the wtc.... there were merely a number
well, my quote and your response have some typos.
I would define victim as someone who has no recourse. Dying not being an viable option.
<font color="#6699ff" size="1">[ September 15, 2003 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Alex ]</font>
but those on the wtc were unaware of danger...
so you can't very well argue 'recourse' when
they were not aware of danger
Once the plane impacted the building, many of the victims had no recourse. Some victims stayed at their desks because they were told to stay by office managers and security, but others had no choice, no recourse to avoid the ensuing fire.
if some dumbass is gonna sit at his desk just after
hearing the enormous crash rumbling through the
building...
then he isn't a victim...
he gets what he deserves
But what I won't ever forget is the man and women who held hands and jumped to their deaths because the heat was so intense they could not stay where they were.
thats a romantic way of putting it....
though its mere speculation... as i'm sure we
cannot exactly understand what was going on in
the mind when something like that happens.
at least they didn't have to deal with the
countless effect of radiation over a period
of 60+ years
Apparently they were so close to where the burning kerosene jet fuel was that the heat and skin scorching wind probably made jumping the most logical option.
A mind numbing situation that I hope I am never put in.
Which is worse? I suppose that is subjective.
they both have similar properties...
however, with 9-11, the after-effects of the
distruction isn't causing newfound deaths in
people born after the incident, as is the case
with hiroshima and nagasaki
Perhaps 9-11 made us all victims..
in some ways the thousands who died in the WTC were spared seeing their memmories abused as a political tool/excuse for racism/imperialism/pax americana. Something we all have to deal with daily.
Nowadays if i have dark skin and a beard im a danger at airports, my freedom will be taken away not by the terrorists that would kill non-combatants for politcal/religious goals but by the very governments who had sworn so vehemently to protect them.
I wont quote Benjamin Franklin here, but most people know it anyway.
We, the survivors, are the victims too, we have to live in this world where a government can declare a permanent state of war against an enemy that is not present.
And i sincerely hope that i never hear the words 'good' and 'evil' applied to one nation/regime/ideology or another ever again.
DonCione
Good and Evil DO EXIST. The problem is once one calls another evil, they may be just as evil for saying it. Not always, but on many occasions.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally posted by Alex:
Good and Evil DO EXIST. The problem is once one calls another evil, they may be just as evil for saying it. Not always, but on many occasions.
its a happenstance paradox that may or may not
exist based on if one may or may not be X.
if evil exists....
please give all relative qualities to evil.
meaning, these qualities in sum will always point to evil.
Good and Evil only exist as a matter of perspective...
One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter....
... unless you're Muhjahideen in which case you will go from being a freedom fighter when the americans are funding and training you, to a terrorist when you use those skills and financing to do something they dont like, lol.
Good and evil are a part of every one of us, and to see them as seperate, distinct notions precipitates the existence of an obective figure (God) and i for one arent willing to go there just yet, at least not until i get struck down by a bolt of lightning for blaspheming, lol.
DonCione