Prejudice against Weckl

I was at one of the area jam nights Tuesday and a young drummer (21?) was talking trash about Weckl. He held his hand about two feet off the floor and said Weckl was a little bitty guy and he talks like (Mickey Mouse voice.) I was so pissed off I had to walk away or I'd've slugged the guy/kid. This guy is a good drummer but a damn sight from a great drummer like Weckl.

The D-Man has provided many of us with untold hours of listening pleasure and nobody but nobody tunes their drums better than Dave.

Drummers the world over are supposed to be a fraternity. Maybe I've missed it but I see no guitar support groups akin to HOD.

I see this 'slant' against Weckl (sometimes in HOD) and it's uncool. It's okay for Vinnie to blow his stack every now and then but it's not okay for Weckl to have a bad day or an attitude. Why? Because Vinnie's a little taller? Chad Wackerman, Rod Morgenstein, Ringo, Keith Moon and many other fantastic drummers are/were men of small stature, or short shits (I deplore the term but I'm using it to make a point, this epithet is as awful as the N-word.) Abe Jr's a big guy and nobody lauds him because of that; it's only his musicianship that counts. Why can't it be the same for DW? His talent's as big or bigger than anybody else's; HE IS IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS THE CELEBRATED MR. COLAIUTA. Steve Holmes has Dave's name right beside Vinnie's on the home page and that's got to mean something. Why doesn't Dave get the respect that Vinnie gets in the drumming community?

This is in no way, shape or form a dig against anybody here. I participate in HOD because I learn something new every time I login, so can somebody please help me understand what's up with that?

Five Eight, I wouldn't take that 21 year old drummer's comments too seriously. Some people just like to criticize others in order to make themselves feel better. Dave Weckl possesses amazing drum skills. I think most drummers would agree with that sentiment.

Regarding your comment about Vinnie being more celebrated in the drum world than Dave Weckl, I think that might be due to Vinnie playing in a wide variety of areas (i.e. rock, jazz, fusion, pop, and country) so he reaches a wider audience.

It's fun to rag on the Weck. He can't swing(unlike Vinnie) and he has that over used and abused 12" splash. Plus he plays with complete relaxation and dynamic exactness that just doesn't cut it in a metal band. And, he doesn't screw up enough. He plays flawlessly with Chick and the gang. And rips it real swell with his own group.

Okay, maybe I'm just joking(he really can't swing though) Weckl is one of my personal favorite drummers, and I always get a kick out of his playing. But then again I just heard a great boot of Dennis with Sco back in the day, and it was pretty insane. Made me think that Virgil Donati borrowed a lot of shit from Dennis(who borrowed shit from Billy) and so on....

I agree with the comments about Vinnie being involved in a wider range of styles, that IS why he gets more exposure IMHO.
But personally for me Dave's playing is so damn tasty he really does improve everytime i see him.

Im only 22 and i will admit that when i was about 12i used to slag other players off but jeez you learn your lesson for him to be bad mouthing at 21 he must have some personal issue's happening.

Lets keep this great community together!

hmm....Vinnie is like the drum companies that rise and fall.
He's flavor of the month as Dave WAS. Peter erskines teacher(according to petes book) said that..."Theres always that new kid with the purple stix around the corner".
Daves had his purple stix and now vinnies picked them up. Who will be next?

There'll always be the loyal supporters who stick from the beginning to the end with their Hero's and, the same applies for the jumping ship rats who, continue to jump onto the next drummer till that ship docks and they've had enough of the tour.

Theres no pleasing people All of the time.

One thing though.....Dave would never suit Stings band(subjective thought) where as vinnie fits in like a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. He compliments and raises stings material to another level in my view. Like copeland fitted and made the police. (in a drumming sense).

You cant take daves GREATNESS away. He's already achieved in the drumming world, feats once not thought possible on a kit, as Bozzio did when he played the black page. Its only music.

Dave can't swing?
Hmmmm.....that would be wrong.

Dave swung his ass off with Mike Stern. Not to mention the (Oh nothing) GRP ALL STAR BIG BAND. The Live In Japan vid has got some great swing, not to mention the insane chart reading skillz, something else incredibly difficult. Dave dances through charts laying the toughest ensemble figures to waiste with insane fills in between and a nice feel throughout.

Sure he wouldnt get the call back on a MEGADEATH audition. I don't think he would want that call.
Nor would I.

Interesting comments about Dave's so-called inablility to swing. I agree that he's no Tain or Billy Higgins and that he has a more 'fusion' way of swinging, but it works. I know exactly what you mean and how you hear his swing feel, but just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.... Vinnies big band playing on the Buddy Rich tribute was shocking. His jazz feel was terrible. He never phrases on the 'and of four' and everything is square. His ride time is dreadful really. Seriously, put it on and listen to his ride cymabal, it's very square and it doesn't 'dance' at all. He fills EVERY phrase that the band play and leaves no space for the music to breath. On that particular ocassion, he truly sounds like a rock drummer trying to play jazz.
Weckl on the other hand sounds great on the Chick Acoustic Band albums. Great time, great phrasing and hip, modern chops.

........ just read your comments Steve and would definitely agree. I forgot about the GRP Big Band Albums. His playing is so tasteful and musical. Also check out the GRP West Side Story album. The charts are really complicated and yet Dave's feel, phrasing and taste are a joy to listen to. He never sounds lumpy and his jazz (ride) feel is always spot on.

"hmm....Vinnie is like the drum companies that rise and fall. He's flavor of the month as Dave WAS."

I guess it's late 'cus I may have missed somethin here. Vinnie is the flavor of the month??? YIKES. Now who sounds like a kid. Again, I'm SURE I missed the context of that statement...Ah Choo..ZAPPA.

As for the 21yo flaming. Geez, welcome to LA. Wait until I stand in line Sat to see Virgil. Usually he is practicing wq/band outside and you can here his DB flurries. No doubt there will be some posers with comments..."Virgil is the best man, he blows Weckl, Chambers out of the water." Then the doors open and the band goes out for food. These guys always curl up when faced with reality. I'm just glad the guy was 21. What scares me is a 41yo w/the same attitude.

Pride comes before the fall. Great minds will always be encountered with mediocre spirits. Just the way it is. Like ol' Bob said in the movie, What About Bob?..."When someone calls and it's the wrong number, I just hang up!"

Drum4fun got it spot on! vinnie plays in more musical sytles than dave and there is always a new cd with vinnie on but with dave its like once a year! vinnie reaches a wider audience and if dave was playing with sting and faith id be an even bigger fan cause id see him more etc!

whoever made the utterly stupid and ignorant comment about dave not being able to swing is quite frankly.......WRONG! as dazzler and steve said listen to the GRP and west side story albums.......if there is anyone who cant swing its dennis (on the jazz superstars album). However thats probably why one of the greatest pianists on the planet hired dave.......chick had always been looking for a drummer that cant swing!?

five eight is definitely right about people going more mad about vinnie. but when i listen to the jing chi album which i like (plus others) it always sounds to me as if he overplays in terms of volume and is sometimes trying to trip the band up and be clever. Dave plays soooo musically and organically......and the reason he "never makes mistakes" is because he is so damn good! in his mind its like "do i need to make a mistake?"

down to the way he touches the drums and the interplay he has with chick and wiengart is outstanding. Dave could 100% handle the sting gig......the subtle textures and emotions he can create would go so well.......its just cause we only see him doing the jazz thing that we dont consider it.

Minimum input, maximum output.......thats also why i like dennis so much. he plays so effortlessly and tastefully and dynamically. to me vinnie just plays loud......i mean on the document album the latin beat he plays is poo compared to the amazing rhythms that dave comes up with. and on "nothing personal" his solo just leaves me bored! why did modern drummer give that 10/10? i just hope they dig weckls new live album cause if u compare his studio work to the live stuff.......its on a different planet!

im trying not to have a go a vinnie and dont want to start another debate, i just get sick of hearing the comments that five eight hears!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by PocketPlayer:
"hmm....Vinnie is like the drum companies that rise and fall. He's flavor of the month as Dave WAS."

I guess it's late 'cus I may have missed somethin here. Vinnie is the flavor of the month??? YIKES. Now who sounds like a kid. Again, I'm SURE I missed the context of that statement...Ah Choo..ZAPPA.

</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps you might like to elaborate on the "Now who sounds like a kid" comment pocket?

I'll explain my VIEW: Drum companies like players come into FASHION and are heralded until something else new, bright and shiny comes along. Suddenly this is the THING/PERSON to be hip too or HAVE ...at THAT time.
(where as the FOLLOWERS were there at the beginning, saw the greatness in it... as it was/is).

Dave came in, blew everyone away and then got jumped on. I didn't see people saying he lacked this or that when he exploded. It seemed people couldn't get enough of him at THAT time.

Has vinnies ABILITY decreased since he played with zappa? Was he playing stuff that wasn't as fancy as dave was or OUT there? From a technical point i dont think so.

Vinnie is heralded as the NEW guy, yet he's always been around. I wonder when the vinnie bashing brigade will come out don't you? Like drum companies it goes around in cycles.

Pride does come before a fall. a Luther van dross quote no doubt?

I don't know what I expected in the way of response when I opened the topic but a round of applause for everybody please. All of your well-written fully-formed ideas dart around like pilot fish in unexpected directions. I'm sure everyone of you would scare the hell out of me on the drums.

IMO Dave swings his ass off and Vinnie can uproot buildings. Like a lot of people the first time I saw Vinnie (and Dave) was on the Buddy Rich Memorial video (I really believe it was Vinnie's night but Dave came in and went out with guns blazin'.) Vinnie initially appeared on a national level with Zappa in '78. Dave showed up around '82 or so. Neither one of them are new. Mine wasn't really a question about ability but about prejudice whether it's directed at height, weight or color. It's fun to debate Bozzio's better than Donati or Ringo's better than Charlie Watts, that makes for some great conversation. But prejudice sucks, unless it's prejudice against child molestors or dirtbags like Osama bin Laden. I bet that chump can't even play a decent triplet.

Tony Williams blasted Weckl in a MD interview once. Although he didn't name Dave by name it was very obvious who he was jabbing with a sharp stick. To paraphrase Tony: "I'm in NYC and this cat introduces himself and says he's the New Guy and I told him blah blah blah." If Dave's always comin' on like I'm-the-man or a garden variety asshole I could understand the slant against him. Sometimes I guess it's better not to meet your heroes. Cobham cooked his own goose with me when I saw him smarting off to young drummers at a clinic 20 years ago; I've never bought another thing he recorded and I had all of his albums up to that point. Neil Peart remarked once, "There's plenty of jerks out there with talent."

If I could be magically transformed into the drummer Vinnie is or the drummer Dave is I'd be hmmming and hawing so much I'm sure there'd be a celestial voice (with Richard Dawson accent) booming across the sky: "Time's up!" and I'd still just be me. Which would be okay cause I'm okay with me. Would I rather be a better drummer? No brainer, yes. Would I like to be a little taller? It doesn't really matter but I'm glad to be Five Eight and not Five Four. [img]wink.gif[/img]

"Vinnie is heralded as the NEW guy, yet he's always been around. I wonder when the vinnie bashing brigade will come out don't you? Like drum companies it goes around in cycles."

I don't know what to say here Me2. If you think Vinnie is the "HOT" ticket, you haven't been around for too long.
As a drummer, Vinnie was THE hot ticket back in '79 and still is. It's as simple as this...at NAMM, when Vinnie walks into the drum area, there is a hushed silence, an awe...I've seen well known drummers surround him like whores around Gene Simmons.
As for Vinnie playing too loud...insane. All an engineer has to do is flip a knob to turn him down in the final mix.
There isn't a drummer alive who can cover so convincingly the wide spectrum of drumming that Colaiuta can...ZERO, and I mean on record.
Sure, someone might play a reggae tune or a little jazz bebop, but Vinnie will do a recording for a particular artist for that style.
The guy's a freak, a monster, a living legend. Why that bothers some is beyond me. I go back to pride. Accept the fact that you and I will NEVER be able to play like Vinnie can with one stick. That's fact! Deal with it and move on.

Someone (Ah Choo..randy) needs to compile a brief discography of Vinnie just to get this out. I just got the Wang Chung and Nik Kershaw recordings. Give me a break. Vinnie KILLS on these. Then he goes off and does a Chick Live in Tokyo at the Blue Note. Give me a break. Vinnie Kills. Then goes off and does the Sting thing. Give me a break. Vinnie Kills. From Faith Hill and SheDaisey to Brian Bromberg and Chick Corea...YIKES! Is the guy perfect...NO. But if God gave someone a fusion of burning desire, raw talent, and genius...his name would be Vincent.

I might do that Pocket, I just finished and turned in the Biography of Vinnie for the upcoming drum book by Marc Atkinson.
The book now has a street date of August 1st, soon to have promotion at summer NAMM from what I have heard. The book will be published by Warner Bros.
While I was writing the biography it donned on me a proper discography would be in order so I kind of started something for the book but did not turn it in for I was not really asked to do it. So it's sitting here started, I will try and finish it up.

LOL.

. . . like whores around Gene Simmons. That's a simile worthy of Raymond Chandler.

Pocket, I haven't laughed that hard since the last time jonthibault cracked wise. You go, boy.

If there is any prejudice against Weckl, it may have been brought on by himself. This is not a "Vinnie is god" post on my part, but here is the real difference between these guys. I have seen these guys perform in an equal amount of gigs in the LA area. Every time I have seen Vinnie, he takes time to talk with you and is very cordial. He stays out in front, takes pictures, signs things, etc. Dave on the other hand goes straight to the back, greets no one (Unless you happen to be another "drum guru.} Every time, this was his consistent behavior. Once or twice, I could say, he was having a bad night. But everytime? Weckl unfortunately, seems to have very little regard for the people that have come to see him.
I love Weckl's playing as much as anyone. I own most of his albums and have studied him extensively. But this I believe, is the essence of what causes him trouble in the drum community at large, as far as the very impressionable early 20 somethings go.

Hey I just wish I was half as good as the guys that are being debated/talked about. Vinnie is blah,blah,... and Dave is blah,blah,... and Virgil well he is blah, blah,... and oh well Dennis is blah,... heck give me some of what they got, I will take it. Man can we sometimes pick at guys, "I mean I watched "so and so" and he just didn't swing like "so and so" or "blah, blah" just did not rock like you know who. These guys are all REALLY GOOD at what they do and if we were only that good! Now I am not saying it is not good to debate at times it really is I enjoy it at times, but sometimes we just pick all of these guys to death.

I have seen most of these guys a few times and they are all HUMAN, I have walked away from watching Vinnie, NOT! being blown away or seen Dennis and not been horribly impressed or watched Virgil and wished he would tone it down abit, or seen Dave and wished I had been more moved, it is the reality that they are just guys who are GREAT players but are not perfect and many times they are REALLY ON and BRILLIANT and at times they are a little off. It is O.K. because they have EARNED what they have gotten, the respect and praise.

Come on how many of us have seen one of these guys and they were "JUST ON" and they FLOORED! us and we walk away thinking they are machines and never can be off and will ALWAYS play at what we think is 100% or close to it and then we see them again and it was not QUITE what it was before and we go hey WHAT'S UP! More often than not it was just our messed up perceptions and we need to adjust our "realities" abit. We put these guys up out of reach so to speak at times and hey they are like us they are screw up's at times, who eat and drink and dump! just like we do. Again give me what THEY GOT! I will take alot of that.

Regards Kirk

Welcome to HOD, Frank. Very impressive post, especially the part about the 'essence' of the Weckster. That's really gettin' to the heart of the matter.

Since Clapton is no longer God, I think Vince is doing a great job.

5/8 are you implying that vincent sits on the righthand of Dave! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Halleluyah Brother we have a winner!
---------------------------------------
Apologies pocket as this was posted while you must have been typing.
I'm not a 21yr old kid(as much as i'd like to be) and i'm aware and have been, of vincent since the early 80's.( when i first heard him or...was turned onto him. As we ALL are by others recommendation(s).

What i'm trying to explain is, Vinnie no matter how long he has been playing, is at that point where he's at his Highest Profile.
Yes drummers have been aware of him but, he's now reaping the rewards that weckl was getting back in the 80's when vinnie should have too.

Thats the point i'm saying about the IN thing. whether that be a Drum company or a drummer, its all cyclical. Someone's or company is in and someones out.

In this case too me, Vincent cant get any hotter at the moment, He's boiling at the suns core.

At some point the bashers will turn on vinnie as they have dave and there will be a new kid in town even though vincent will still be THE CHAMP!
(5/8 break out the Rocky theme please!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]</font>

Hey Me2, I was just quoting what you wrote in your posts. That is not judging, but quoting...right. You said it! I never stated you called Vinnie the "hot ticket," but referenced it that way because you are saying he is NOW, THE guy.

We all know Vinnie has always been around. We all know he is great, BUT...the point of contention is that he is NOW being used by everyone. I think that is what you're saying.

Here's my point...I do agree that Vinnie is being used A LOT, BUT...Vinnie has been playing with everyone since the 80's. His playing with Sting took him away from the studio. That's why I said it sounds like you haven't been around for too long. I don't mean disrespect, but if you knew his history, you would know he was an in demand LA Rountable studio cat until the major committment of the Sting gig.
It was Vinnie, Porcaro, Mason, Keltner, Fongheiser, Schaeffer, and Baird...those were the top guys getting the calls in '90.

Sting took Vinnie away and on the road in the early '90's, and we all know that a studio guy is paranoid to stray too far from the phone. It took Sting or Peter Gabriel to get him away from the studios. If Randy makes available his sessions in the 80's we will all be amazed I'm sure of it.

When he left Sting in around '97-'98, he got back into the studios and of course everyone wants him, who wouldn't if he was available. So again, he is in demand bigtime NOW, BUT...he was also a heavy studio cat before Sting as well. The Sting gig and that exposure sure didn't hurt his profile any...it added to it.

So has Vinnie's [presence ESCALATED] at [full trajectory right now]...? I say NO. It has been there. Without the commitment of Sting, the tours, and road, etc., he has just got back into the studio groove and that has grown, but not "as the flavor of the month" more like the flavor of the past two decades.

This isn't a Dave vs Vinnie thread...we're all tired of those, but I do find that those who have a deep preference towards a particular musician (and passions rise here) and when one's mind is made up, reason is futile.
My reference to, "pride come before the fall" had this in mind;
When many are so ardent in defending their favorite drummer or musician--for whatever reason--I find that they are not defending reason, or drummer X, or an abstract system; often they are defending their own sense of security and self-respect.
I am NOT saying this is the case here, but it is an easy thing to slide into. That's why so many of the "younger" drum forums are noted for serious flaming...outside of simply having some fun.
In short, it's part of our fallen side to want to identify with greatness in a way that compromises who WE are, and when another great comes along, our limitedness feels there is only room for one tattoo on Gene Simmons butt cheek--well, he's got two cheeks!

Nuff said here. That's my take.
[img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 02:34 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

I'd hate to live in a world that had Vinnie, but didn't have Dave (or Bonzo or Bozzio or Bruford or Buddy or . . . )

"You know, I've never heard a story about Tony Williams that involves him being nice. To be honest, (and I know everyone will want to crucify me for this,) his playing bores me."

Yikes. Tony's phrasing was off the hizzle. Completely. Yes, his drums always sounded "plasticy" and ass-like, but that was the beauty of it. He sat down and beat the living hell out of these horrible-sounding drums and came up with frightening phrases. You're right about the pocket. Tony always played ahead of the beat (even Miles said so). But that's one of the ways you know it's Tony. He had a very strange signature sound. He also played very, very loud.

I don't think there's a lot of "prejudice" against Weckl because he's short. I never even realized he was of small stature until one night at the Jazz Bakery, when he walked right into my left knee. For a short guy, he sure seems to do well with the chickies (his wife is smokin'). Weckl rocks the fashizzle, even if he is Lillipution. (Jesus, I hope he doesn't read this stuff.)

From ESPN Classic--T-Bo Live Drum Funny bits:

"I don't think there's a lot of "prejudice" against Weckl because he's short. I never even realized he was of small stature until one night at the Jazz Bakery, when he walked right into my left knee." [img]eek.gif[/img]

"For a short guy, he sure seems to do well with the chickies (his wife is smokin'). Weckl rocks the fashizzle, even if he is Lillipution." [img]tongue.gif[/img]

...cleaned it up--no more "first part" [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 06:04 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

That first part, I was quoting someone else. I don't think Tony's playing is boring at all.

Weckl gets trashed becaues it's become somewhat accepted to do so IMO. Get enough guys in MD to make slights against him and pretty soon every kid out of MI, Berklee, LAMA etc thinks Weckl can't swing.

Also, I know for a fact that many instructors in these schools preach Weckl's playing as being stiff. I don't agree, but people are impressionable and if someone who's not that experienced is told that Dave is a "stiff" player, he's going to respect that person's opinion and perhaps adjust his way of thinking.

Dave has not helped himself either in the "anti stiff mullet movement" by saying his playing is no longer stiff. It's like saying "I'm really humble." Saying it almost makes it not so. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think Dave is great and plays like "Weckl." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (I'm preaching to the choir I know) and hopefully that's what these people/kids will learn. It's all a matter of taste. It's better to try not to speak in absolutes when it comes to art.

Oh, my, here we go again...

PP & TBo - ABSITIVELY, POSOLUTELY FREEKIN HIL-HAIRY-AS*!!

PP [also DDF, TBo] - I couldn't've said it any better [PP - your last post on pg. 1 of this debaucle! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ] - i've always looked at it that way, AW...

I also agree w Teeb about Tony... he turned the music world on it's ear when he was just shy of 17 freakin yrs of age [w Miles]... unprecedented phrasing up until that point [& still holds up today, imo]... it's ok 4 Nikk to feel the way he does because that's his opin & that's cool w me... he didnt say, "Tony sucked" [OR DID HE?!! [img]wink.gif[/img] - 20 lashes w a wet 5A or mallet/ooohh that smarts!]... he simply made references as to y he disliked certain aspects of TWs playin... fine by me, no harm/offense done; none taken... [ain't gon' make me stop listenin' to "Believe It" any more than i could MAKE him listen to it...]

"...eeerrrrrrrrEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRREEEEaaaaahhhhhhhhh h..." [siren] - Oh no - the jazz/swing/beat-PO-leece r here - looks like they've pulled Weckl & Vinnie over & they're giving them citations for "not enuf dotted inflection on the ride cymb"... uh, oh, looks like the Warden ain't happy wif dose 2 boyz, mmm-mmm-mmmmmmm... THAT'S IT - 10 days in da "cooler" wif Rikki [-Tikki] Crockett & Taco Tico Torrid [or Abe Jr, Dennis-when he was phat, or Kirk C [img]wink.gif[/img] ] ...

...That's y all of OUR phone's are ringing off da hook from Sting's, Chick's, Dweez & Ahmet's [Frank's gone], Waldman's, Vanelli's etc etc managements calling us 4 their gigs instead of DW & VC...[no graemlin w thumb up arse [img]frown.gif[/img] ...] Oh, yeah, & that slouch himself Corea absolutlely HATES DW's playin, or any other hack drummer that he's played w/, 4 that matter...
"...eeerrrrrrrrEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRREEEEaaaaahhhhhhhhh h..." - oh, dear, is that the "Sarcasm Police" i hear?!! Guess i'm in deep dookie too...

VINNIE is SH** HOT... WECKL is SH** HOT... DENNIS is SH** HOT... DONATI is SH** HOT... [newsflash: THEY ARE ALL SH**-WHITE-HOT...film at 11...] [PS - Tony was poop-on-an-unshaded-hot-summer-sidewalk aka 'Cleveland Steamer' hot, too ;=)]

END of the [rehashed] STORY. PERIOD.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 08:20 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Good point Derek on Weckl supposedly being stiff, back in the 80's it was big of course to bash him for that but he was not STIFF it was his machine like precision and somehow that was misinterpreted as stiff, WRONG definition. Stiff is a description of feel or touch as some might say, has nothing to do with your playing being spot on delivery wise. There was not enough so called "humaness" in his delivery I once read, good grief the things some like to dicker about.

I saw him back in 87 and of course some guys like you said had been "prepped" all ready to take shots at him for being so called stiff, and they missed out on the GREAT points of his playing. If someone is going to be critical of someones playing at least use the right stinking terminology for goodness sakes. I guess these guys are so good the MINOR, PITHY things really stand out and we can at times miss the greatness going on. And I am definitely speaking about myself on this point. Like I said before if we(I) were only 1/2 as good.

Regards Kirk (Digital)

Jeezuz H Christ! Can we steer away from the Vinnie vs Dave debate... IT'S BOOORING! Seriously. This forum must be more than who's got the best chops etc. I know that you are all VERY knowledgable about Mr Weckl and Mr Colaiuta, but this futile debate must end as the arguments are pointless, as is this thread (IMO).
Can we not get back to discussing M U S I C ? I know that we are all drummers, but sometimes I wish that some of you would get away from meaningless debates about chops and double bass bullshit and start discussing MUSIC in general. Who gives a flying f*ck about technique or chops anyway? I don't. Put on an album with Paul Motion on the drums and then get back to me... until then, can we PLEASE lose this stupid talk of chops, speed and technique. It's all arbitary and has nothing to do with MUSIC.
I am a drummer second, but a MUSICIAN first.

HI DAZZ!!! [img]cool.gif[/img]
I likes m u s i c, too.
I'm sticking out my tongue atchoo [kazeundheit]!
[img]tongue.gif[/img]
OK, seriously, tho - Music IS more import than chops... but chops in d rrrright place [like, say, those guys... er, oh, what's'ernames... oh yeah, Vinnie or Weckl] is most excellent AW... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

AAAAHHHH...VIN-NIE-SCHAMINNIE; VECK-EL-SCHAMECKEL....

Great points all, especially Derek. I remember reading an article with hi-hatless, expatriate, poser Leon Parker who said that Weckl was not the next Steve Gadd. Funny-who said he was supposed to be? I've heard a lot of the 'new breed' guys touted as the 'next' Vinnie or the 'next' Weckl.(Zach Danziger and Josh Freese come to mind) That would be like announcing Vinnie as the next Tony Williams. I don't think it's healthy to think of anyone as the "Next" anything. What's the point? IMO this puts some people in a position of failure because sometimes people listen too much to the hype.
If this makes no sense it's because I'm extremely tired.

Clint

Made perfect sense, Clint [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] ...
Oh, btw - just who the heck is 'Leon Parker?' [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [or am i just OOTL - "out of the loop".... ;=) ]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2003 10:06 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Five Eight, as someone said, I'd be more worried if that dude was older, like 35 years old... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Every time I listen to the first Chick Corea Electric Band album, I am reminded that Dave Weckl is deserving of much respect from the drumming community.

Well said Digital:

"... then we see them again and it was not QUITE what it was before and we go hey WHAT'S UP! More often than not it was just our messed up perceptions and we need to adjust our "realities" abit."

I remember in 1987 when Dave did his first major Zildjian Clinic Tour around the world. That clinic for me is always remembered as being a most positive experience.

Then I saw him again in clinic around 2 years ago, this time I was not moved at all. I started thinking to myself, what is wrong? The guy is one of the Masters of drumming!! Then I started considering that maybe the problem was not necessarily Dave's performance as much as it was my own expectation, or as Digital said, it was most likely my own "messed up perceptions" that ruined it for me that evening!

As we get older sometimes, we get puffed up 'cause we think we've seen it all. When that happens arrogance creeps in, we're the ones getting robbed and we don't even know it. If we could simply keep a child-like perspective, make the effort to renounce to prejudices in listening to various drummers, music, etc. Easier said than done though, for me anyway.

I am full of preconceived notions, short-sights of all kinds. It's true, that phenomena does come naturally, it's part of that faillible angle we're all packaged with...

Later,

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 30, 2003 12:03 AM: Message edited by: beat Hit ]</font>

hi everyone.......
I want to just add my opinion about what this thread started out as: "people slamming Weckl"

I remember back when Weckl first came into the limelight and older teachers in my area being critical of everything that guy did or said... even to the extent of saying that drums were not his main thing, but that he just wanted to be a fat cat producer! (this was after the first MD interview when Weckl mentioned possibly doing some production in his future.)

Frankly, I am sick of this ridiculous stuff! It's sad to think that it still goes on especially considering his incredible abilities...

I believe that the harsh critique of his playing stems from the older so called teachers who are protective of their own egos... Weckl's talent belies his age and I think that the older more seasoned players were intimidated by his early stardom...

As a teacher one must helped to foster an
open minded mentality in our
students... if we don't find the positives in our students favorites we are doing them a great diservice!

I would bet that the 20 year old who was "poo pooing" Weckl in the original post must have got this notion from someone else and not through his own interpretation and appraisal of the Weckster......

In the end, it doesn't really matter who we choose as our favorites, they are all doing something right. It really doesn't matter if the guy is nice to people or not, just listen to the music! We can't expect them all to want to be our friends!

[img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 30, 2003 01:01 AM: Message edited by: drumbug ]</font>

The Artist Direct site is great for finding out who played on what etc....they have quite a list on Vinnie:
http://ubl.artistdirect.com/music/ar...416133,00.html

LOL, Seems you be judging me like you judged old Funk (Luther/selfinflictedweight/OOP's!)

I dont think i called vinnie "The Hot Ticket" in my post. INFACT, what i CLEARLY stated was....."He's ALWAYS been around". Now i dont know about you but, thats as clear a representation that i dont think vinnies the Hot ticket MYSELF!

Nobody gets into zappas band unless they shit hot, anyone knows that, and though my Zappa collection of vinnie may not be... brimming over, doesn't mean that i wasn't aware of him until now.
Yeah, i had the MD where vinnie used to rush up to the attic and play in odd times...Hot red 9000's on the cover WHOOPEE for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As much as vinnie has been THE SHIT since 79...its funny how EVERYONE seems to want him RIGHT NOW. Funny how his presence has ESCALATED in the last few yrs cuz, he's always been the hot shit.
Why was it that chambers and weckl were cleaning up on thoses fusion gigs in the 80's that vinnie was MORE than competant to do? (Being the "Hot Shit"). see what i'm saying pocket.....players rise into their position, vinnies at full trajectory right now if thats the right thing to say. (Ability in 79 or not)
As weckl was as chambers was as gadd was before weckl took the spot light.

Vinnies always been the shit, but the star is BURNING at full wattage RIGHT NOW. Vincents never had it so good.

Pocket it doesn't matter if vinnie can play better than me with one stick. Infact vincent could do more with just a foot but, i'll always be able to move on because i dont put my foot in my mouth. Love luther. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You know, I've never heard a story about Tony Williams that involves him being nice. To be honest, (and I know everyone will want to crucify me for this,) his playing bores me. The only stuff I really dug was the real early Miles shit like Four and More. His sound has never appealed to me. Very flappy and plastic-y. His drums sound ugly as sin on all his New Tony Williams Lifetime records. The compositions are hip and funky, but imo he lacks pocket (yes I realize I'm talking about Tony Williams here.) Thus, when I hear all these nasty stories about him, I'm admittedly a tad compelled to dislike his playing even more. We've gone through the whole famous drummer/bad attitude topic on this forum many times. It seems they all have their moments. But in my opinion, they better be bad-ass players to be behaving like a-holes. Sorta like when a not-so-hot girl acts like a real beeatch. I'm thinking to myself, "this girl is not nearly hot enough to be acting this snottily." You fellas dig?

well once again this topic has turned into another "vinnie is god" one.....again. BORING!!!!

Looks like we've got a great card shaping up for The Next Big Annual HOD Convention.

On the bill for the drum battle we've already got Randy Walker vs. 5/8 (before dinner) and now with the addition of Me2 vs. PocketPlayer this could be an event worthy of bringing your video camera to.

No word on the headliners Colaiuta vs. Weckl yet. Steve, have either Vinnie or Dave's handlers gotten back to you?

just go watch vinnie live. this will shut everyone up for good. go watch virgil live while you're at it.

i leave a dwb gig thinking it was a nice show.
i leave a jazz ministry gig about to have a heart attack.
i leave a CAB gig on a stretcher.

i just thought I would rag on Weckl, as that's what this thread was about. Seems like it caused a spiff.

Anyway, Weckl sounds like he swings to me, but from a heavy jazzers point of view, his swing is not as "authentic" as Tony or Vinnie. It has a lot to due with how to play without subdividing every beat and letting the notes breath more. Anyone want to slam me? Steve???