The Iraqui prison abuse situation

What do you think? Personally I think it is the media using any and every means possible to discredit the Bush Administration and create opposition to the war. Before condemning the soldiers involved, I would like to hear their side of the story. What transpired before these alleged acts of "torture" I would like to know. What motive did someone have for taking the photos and making them public? Atrocities do occur during war, war in and of itself is humanity's biggest atrocity if you think about it. But the same people screaming for blood over this "torture" will look the other way on terrorist acts, look the other way about 9/11 and seek every means they can to demonize US actions. While I can understand foreigners doing it, it makes me sick to think of Americns sympathizing with those Islamic filth bags. I'm sure US soldiers also did things in WWI, WWII, Korea and VietNam and any other conflict we have ever been in that would be considered "scandalous". So what? War is Hell. We're there to win, who cares how?

You underestimate the effect this will have.

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But make no mistake. Bin Laden has just won the victory for which he always plotted and schemed. U.S. and world terror experts have always told us that the ultimate goal behind his acts of terror was to goad America into committing the sort of catastrophic blunder that would resonate not just through the Middle East but the entire world. He wanted a horrific over-response, captured on film so that the world would no longer believe that Americans are global good guys -- but closet evildoers. Just as bin Laden has been saying in his periodic videotaped rants. Now the pictures pouring through the Great News Funnels into living rooms around the planet seem to be proof of just that.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...cle_4500.shtml

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now that the Arab world has proof that Americans have been using torture and intimidating interrogation methods in the same facilities Saddam used for these activities, we will never be able to earn one milligram of leadership credibility.

I concur with LanDroid. We now have a "black eye". Not that we didn't already have a nice shiner already in the Arab world, but the damage is done, there is no fix for this. We lost a lot of ground with this "Scandal". I would love to see how these tapes came to light though, there in is the big question.

I don't know as if it will make that much difference. When you think about it, there really isn't much room in the world anymore for rational thought. Most subsrcibe to one, rigid side (or ideology) and whatever your side does is fine, whatever the other side does is wrong. My point being, those in the Arab world who are against us....I mean, this tape may bolster them somewhat, but honestly, if we took Iraqi POWs and gave them cable TV and a weight room, would our detractors think any higher of us? And the other side is also true- we can torture or do whatever we want, Israel will remain our ally.

As far as our "legitimacy" in the world stage, that's not going to change, either. Those who hate us already will keep doing so, and would no matter what, and the opposite is true for those who love us. There are more haters than lovers, but that's because we ourselves are playa-hatahs.....

As usual good points Lew. As everyone knows I try to stear a middle course based on fairness and try to avoid any kind of extremism. [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]

Here's an interesting article my cousin sent to me. It makes some very valid points that I agree with:

If we treated WW2 like we do the war on terrorism
Right Wing News
5/06/04
by John Hawkins & Perry Bullock


August 1st, 1944

After one of the bloodiest months of fighting in Europe, House Republican leaders called for all United States forces to be withdrawn from Europe. "This is a quagmire," said one house member. "There is no evidence whatsoever that Nazi Germany had any connection to the attacks of 12/07 and fighting with Germany is a distraction from our war on Japan. We need to finish the job in the Pacific before getting involved in Europe?s problem and besides, it?s not as if Nazi Germany is an imminent threat to America. They haven?t even been able to conquer Britain. Besides, isn?t this a matter for the League of Nations?"

Asked about reports that there were some concentration camps in Europe, another House member replied, "He [FDR] has never said that this was about liberating the concentration camps in his 12/08 speech. In fact, how could he [FDR] say a word about this when we ally ourselves with dictators such as Josef Stalin and Chang-Kai-Shek?"

One Republican Senator opined that, "FDR has squandered all the good will we built up from WW1 in a few short years and for what? So we can conquer Japan and Germany to acquire cheap radios and German automobiles. It?s about enriching FDR?s Wall-Street buddies".

On the other hand, some Republican leaders say that this was an attempt by President Roosevelt to distract Americans from the depression. "He [FDR] has had no success with his domestic agenda, his New Deal isn?t working, and he is trying to deflect attention away from his failure to stack the Supreme Court. So rather than deal with the issues people are really care about right now like the environment and subsidies for the dying buggy whip industry, Roosevelt took what should have been a law enforcement matter to be settled between the State Department and Japan and turned it into another War of 1812!"

Among some of the criticism of FDR?s European policy is the way the Administration is allying itself with resistance leaders. "I don?t trust either one of them [Charles De Gaulle and Tito]."They have been feeding the so-called allies phony information. If we had a Republican President, we?d have better allies who could shoulder more of the burden instead of this fraudulent coalition that FDR has put together."

There were reports that Nazi Germany had chemical weapons, but house members scoff at those. "If Nazi Germany had poison gas, do you think they would have already used it? Roosevelt lied and people died!"

Others criticized the President for the way the operation to Europe came about. Former WW1 military commanders criticized the Invasion of Normandy as "Reckless". "It?s obvious that we barely had enough troops to prepare ourselves for the German counter offensive" one critic said. "Our jeeps were inadequately design to handle the new German?s panzerfaust anti-tank weapon and we are stretching our troops too thin in both Germany and Japan. I don?t even know what we?re trying to do and I doubt Roosevelt does either. If only we had a plan, we wouldn?t be taking so many casualties."

A GOP congressman summed it all up by saying "It was arrogant and reckless for Roosevelt to use Pearl Harbor as an excuse to drag us into a world war and I only hope we can get him out of office so we won?t have to waste anymore of our young men?s lives on this mess he got us into."

much ado about nothing I think. I saw the pictures and I'm with lake. Boo frickin hoo, they had to be naked. Oh my gawd, we're all going to hell. I didn't see any burn marks, broken limbs, or other torture evidence.

Fuck the Iraqi's and everyone that looks like an Iraqi...

I take it you screwballs wouldn't object to American POW's receiving the same treatment. It's obvious that some of this treatment was calculated to be of utmost offensiveness to Muslims - women treating men like dogs, drunks abusing prisoners, homosexuals having their way, etc. Now imagine Muslims treating American POW's in a way exquisitely designed to enrage Christians. I don't know what those actions might be, but I suspect we're about to find out. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Rush Limbaugh tried to dismiss all this as soldiers just blowing off steam like at a Skull & Bones frat party. Well don't forget the abuse included sodomizing with broomsticks and chemical lights. Perhaps Rush should offer to help improve the morale of soldiers in Iraq by offering to submit to the same treatment. [img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img]

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We are in danger of losing something much more important than just the war in Iraq. We are in danger of losing America as an instrument of moral authority and inspiration in the world.

Thomas Friedman

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<font color="#000002" size="1">[ May 06, 2004 10:02 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

You can follow this page to a link to see the pics for yourself. Frankly, I'm not bothered by them at all, which kind of bothers me. [img]confused.gif[/img]

Some very ugly prisoners I must say... [img]eek.gif[/img]

Is she pointing and laughing?

Actually Lan, what makes you think they don't already get that kind of treatment. I do object to the physical abuse these prisoners received. There is no call for that kind of treatment. I do not object, however, to abusing them psychologically.

The motto of PSYOPS:

"PSYOPS - Because physical wounds heal"

Works for me...

Before passing judgment I still want to hear the soldier's side of it. What transpired just prior to the event? (Did the prisoners kill some of their comrades in a skirmish and then taunt them? did the prisoners taunt them about 9/11? did the prisoners make comments like "you are a bunch of faggots"? did the prisoners make generalizations about Americans and/or specific "yo momma" kind of remarks?) Which in turn led the soldiers to give them a taste of their own medicine to keep them in line? Dunno, I wasn't there. But given the circumstances the treatment they received may have in fact been mild compared to what they deserved....

And FYI I do hope you consider me even more of a screwball then the others on this site Landroid. After all I do have a reputation to uphold. [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]

I had no idea you still needed emotional support in that department. [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]

Lan does have a point in that, when we hear of our people having such things done to them by the enemy, we throw a hissy. And granted, like I said earlier, even if we treat their POWs wonderfully, they are still going to do all these horrible things to ours. That said, I still say we should take the high road. When it comes to POWs, that is. In terms of war, as far as I'm concerned, there is no way to sanitize it, you just gotta git 'r done.

I am intrigued by the WWII analogy, but I don't know as it's a fair comparison. WWII was the single most defining event (unless you believe it's too simple to treat it as one "event") of the 20th Century, maybe of all time. And the people then recognized its significance, even though they had no idea how much it would change things.

I don't know how history will view the current situation, but it;s hardly on the same scale. At least for now. The Germans and the Japanese more or less had to be fought. I don't know as we had to go into Iraq. Maybe we did, I just don't know at this point.

One thing i'll grant you is that thank God we didn't have the media then that we do now. Honestly, I hate to see our soldiers get killed or taken prisoner, but if the Iraqis would come over here and take some of our pundits....hell, I'd help track them down myself, and I'd start with Star Jones....

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Originally posted by Jumper69:
Actually Lan, what makes you think they don't already get that kind of treatment. I do object to the physical abuse these prisoners received. There is no call for that kind of treatment. I do not object, however, to abusing them psychologically.

The motto of PSYOPS:

"PSYOPS - Because physical wounds heal"

Works for me...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought we were supposed to be better than they. I thought we were the ones with the moral upper hand.

I've not seen all the pictures, and I've not seen anything (yet) to suggest something other than humiliation at the hands of the Americans. I cringe at the thought of possible physical abuse.

Doesn't make us look good. And makes our standing in the Arab world even worse than it is - if that's possible.

<font color="#000002" size="1">[ May 08, 2004 09:52 AM: Message edited by: reason ]</font>

"I've not seen anything (yet) to suggest something other than humiliation at the hands of the Americans. I cringe at the thought of possible physical abuse."

We rant about the media, but don't believe anything until we see the photos? (Maybe Reason wants to see photos of Americans sodomizing prisoners, but I sure don't. [img]wink.gif[/img] ) OK here ya go. From NY Times. The guy at the top right is dead. It doesn't look like the guy below him enjoyed a good death either. But hey, if that doesn't satisfy you, there is more to come including a video!

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"There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane... It?s going to get a good deal more terrible, I?m afraid.?
-Donald Rumsfeld

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and ?acting inappropriately with a dead body.? The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It looks like our ability to positively influence the Middle East is now over...

<font color="#000002" size="1">[ May 08, 2004 02:38 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

Either way, the outlook has got a lot more grim.

The "abuse" itself I have mixed feelings about it. We are supposed to set a better example, but we also don't know the whole story. The press would never, ever slant a story would they? [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] The fact that photos of it were leaked to the press infuriates me. Some things are best kept secret. It serves no purpose other than to make it harder to do what we are trying to do over there by "exposing" it.

No harm/no foul then

Poor little babies, may be we should use some of their own methods.

Why don't we just shoot them and get it over with.

If we get information from these "prisoners" that ultimatly save american and british lives, then I don't give a fuck'all (sorry sluggo) what tactics are used to get that information.

I do not condone physical abuse. I fully support psychological abuse.

PSYOPS - Because physical wounds heal!

And to follow-up my earlier post, I'm not saying we shoudl take the high road because of what the rest of the world thinks of us; quite honestly, I couldn't care less where we rank in the court of world opinion. Nope, I feel we should take the high road because of what it tells us about ourselves. It's a matter of pride; we are Americans, we are above that. I agree with Jumper to the extent that I have no problem extracting information. But to humiliate without reason, it accomplishes no end.

If it was up to me, I would jam a pigs dick down their throat and watch them suffocate.

When you see these pictures, remember 911 and smile.

Great Post:

Left Versus Right--Can We Close the Great Divide?

Posted by Barbara Stock
Tuesday, May 11, 2004


Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was put on a spit and grilled over hot coals by one committee after another last week. Democrats from all over the country are calling for his resignation because of the actions of a handful of soldiers in a prison half a world away. In their opinion, Rumsfeld is responsible for this scandal. Bush is also responsible, of course, because the buck stops with him. The behavior of every American soldier everywhere in the world leads directly to the oval office.

This is interesting since none of those congressmen screaming the loudest from the left knew what their commander in chief was doing with an intern just a few hundred yards from their chambers, and when they did find out, they did nothing but circle the wagons to protect him.

Perhaps those on the Congressional Oversight Committee should resign as well. After all, it?s their job to oversee the activities of the military and so--in light of the recent news--they obviously were not doing their jobs. Should any senator or congressman who voted for the war be held responsible?

Instead of hitting the problem head on and dealing with it, some have chosen to make this prison-abuse problem a political weapon. We Americans have witnessed the same phenomena with the 9/11 Commission. Finger-pointing and back-stabbing are the norm in our capital on any given day, but these days, it has reached epidemic proportions.

Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, one of those under investigation, tried to get the word out. Fearful, he contacted his brother-in-law, William Lawson, who, in turn, wrote to 17 congressmen explaining the abuses going on at the Abu Ghraib prison. Lawson told The New Yorker that he did not receive a single response. The investigation was talked about openly in briefings from Iraq. The media knew, the military knew, but now, many of those same indignant politicians are screaming: ''Why didn?t we know about this?''

The truth is that they probably knew. These senators and congressmen and women knew this scandal was out there and it was only a matter of time before those horrible pictures were on the front page of every newspaper in the world. The closer to the election the abuse became living color front-page news, the better. Solving the problem was the last thing they cared about. The safety of our soldiers in the field most likely never entered their minds. Even America?s reputation around the world would have to take a back seat. Sticking the knife of blame in President George Bush?s back by shoving it through Donald Rumsfeld was the primary objective.

Instead of suggestions to solve the problem and attempts to repair the damage, all that is heard from the leftists is, ''Someone must resign!'' ''It?s a symptom of the ?failed Iraqi policy? of the President.'' Teddy Kennedy has said that Saddam?s ''torture chambers'' just opened ''under new management.'' This year, everything is politics. It is politics most foul.

When did this vast, seemingly insurmountable gap open up between the left and right in America? There have always been obvious differences between the two main political bodies in this country, but when there was a threat to national security and especially in wartime, the differences were put aside for the good of the country.

Now, however, the needs of the Democrat Party seem to be more important than the good of the country. The safety of our soldiers in harm?s way is forgotten for political gain. The enormous good that has been done by 99.9% of our military is trampled on for headlines and some perceived slight political gain against the present administration.

The media fuels the fire. The Nixon Watergate scandal gave the press the power to affect the political landscape in a way it never realized was possible. The press now has a power it will never give up. The vast majority of journalists have admitted they are liberal. Thus, anything the media can do to assist the liberal cause, which is also its cause, most journalists will do. The modern American journalist doesn?t report the news, he tries to design it.

Press conferences from Iraq spoke of ''investigations into allegations of abuse of Iraqi prisoners'' in January of this year. For the most part, it was ignored. It was not a story then. But when pictures, with the smiling faces of American soldiers tormenting helpless prisoners surfaced, it became the ONLY story. It became the earth-mover that Bush-hating leftists needed to undermine the credibility of the president that many in the media love to hate. Bush?s ''immoral war'' has led to ''immoral'' behavior within the ranks. Leftists act as though this is something that has never, ever, happened before.

Leftist are crowing that because of this one scandal, America will lose the war in Iraq. What rubbish. But leftists will plant the seeds of defeatism whenever possible. In fact, leftists can demoralize the population and the soldiers in one fell swoop. The anti-war, anti-Bush crowd can barely disguise its glee over the embarrassment to the president. John Kerry is even using this black-eye on America to raise money for his campaign.

Americans know that the Arab world disliked us before the war, and during the war, and it will continue to dislike us because most do not want democracy in the Middle East. Democracy will threaten dictatorships and kingdoms. News of this abuse to Iraqi prisoners gives the Arab media ammunition to whip up Muslim fury, but, for the most part, the constant barrage of pictures and demanded apologies and resignations from our own politicians is not for the sake of Iraqi people or the Arab world. It is to degrade and disgrace the President of the United States and to undermine the war in Iraq.

While the Iraqi people are upset and rightfully angry at the treatment of their people by a few, they also sneer at the indignation of their Arab neighbors who ignored their plight for decades. At this time, the Iraqi people are wiser than many of our politicians. They are shocked at the actions of some American soldiers, but the vast majority of Iraqis know that despite all of it, they are better off now than they have ever been and it wasn?t their Arab neighbors that put their lives on the line to free them. Our media people are talking about the prisoner abuse non-stop. The pictures are shown on Arab TV every hour on the hour. For some of the Iraqi people, it is nothing more than life as usual?as it was before the Americans came, just not as bad and certainly not as publicized. The Arab world certainly didn?t care.

If the fact that America is at war does not close this gap, the fear has to be that nothing will close it. It has now become a mountain that cannot be climbed. No longer is this country united against an enemy but it has become a country torn apart from within by a desire for political power.

Abe Lincoln, who witnessed the worst and most wrenching ripping apart of America, knew in his heart that America must always stand united to survive when he stated: ''A house divided against itself cannot stand.'' Once again, we stand on the brink of being torn asunder by hatred from within.

Barbara is a registered nurse who enjoys writing about politics and current events. Her website is at http://www.republicanandproud.com and she receives e-mail at: [email protected].

And we should apologize for the treatment of some worthless prisoners? Filthy pieces of camel dung

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...aded_px102.jpg

That poor man. That's it, I am done.

"We have blunder after blunder after blunder," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said Thursday on NBC's "Today" show.

As opposed to Chappaquidic which he did on purpose and his father's money silenced.....

You know, it's easy for all of us to second guess the president and say what we would do or not do. But in any given situations, we cannot truly say what we would do in another person's shoes. I just know that I would not want to be President for all the money in the world. It is not easy for President Bush to do any of the things he has had to do and all of the second guessing in the world does not matter. He has to make the decisions and he has to live with the consequences - good or bad. I'm not saying that I agree with everything he say or does but I am saying that I am mighty glad that I DO NOT have to make them. I'm sure President Bush as well as Clinton and the others before them all had to make decisions that were not popular nor pleasant or Right but they all are doing and did the best they can do. Can we all say the same???

Very good points Sluggo and I agree with you. But I wish I could trade places with President Bush just long enough to get my finger on the nuke buttons. Just give me 10 minutes with it. Our gasoline would glow for awhile and Israel would have a great deal more territory to colonize... [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]

or even better, bring back the "Neutron bomb" that President Carter discontinued developing. It wiped out populations but left buildings and equipment intact. After a certain period of time (much sooner than nukes) it was safe to go back into the area and claim your victory. Why destroy perfectly good buildings, vehicles and oil production equipment just to wipe out some filthy Islamic extremists? I'm sure the cadavers could be used for some kind of fertilizer or something.

Boo fucking boo hoo

I guess we'll be paying reparations in the millions to Taliban POWs next. [img]graemlins/grrr.gif[/img]

Good points re: the political divide, but let's not delude ourselves here- if Gore was the President, and everything else was equal, right-wing talk radio would be all over him just like the mainstream media is with Bush.

I was listening to Hugh Hewitt last night, and he made a comment how everything would be fine but for the Democrats and the liberal media. Well, I;m sorry, but the conservatives control the White House, the Federal Courts, and both houses of Congress. The Democrats are a minority party in every sense of the word. If it ain't gettin' done, it ain't the minority party's fault. By definition, it can't be.

Like I said, don't get me wrong- of course the Democratic party is putting its own interests ahead the country's. But if a Democrat were in the White House, the GOP would be doing the same thing. Only you wouldn't be hearing about it in the NY Times, it would be over at Fox News and on talk-radio.

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Originally posted by Sluggo:
He has to make the decisions and he has to live with the consequences - good or bad.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Damn near spit coffee out my nose when I read this. George the lesser concerned about consequences? Yeah, sure, he's about as worked up about any of this as he was about being taken to task for deserting. Follow the money if you want to see the "consequences" of his actions.

Bastard is selling out his country and trading the lives of servicepeople to line his and his buddies pockets.

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Originally posted by Pi?a:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Sluggo:
He has to make the decisions and he has to live with the consequences - good or bad.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Damn near spit coffee out my nose when I read this. George the lesser concerned about consequences? Yeah, sure, he's about as worked up about any of this as he was about being taken to task for deserting. Follow the money if you want to see the "consequences" of his actions.

Bastard is selling out his country and trading the lives of servicepeople to line his and his buddies pockets.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">President Bush is simply dealing with the mess your boy Clinton left him when he assumed office. I guess if Gore were in office now you would be blaming everything wrong in the world on a right wing conspiracy? Take your medication Pina, your absence has not improved your condition.

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Damn near spit coffee out my nose when I read this. George the lesser concerned about consequences? Yeah, sure, he's about as worked up about any of this as he was about being taken to task for deserting. Follow the money if you want to see the "consequences" of his actions.
Bastard is selling out his country and trading the lives of servicepeople to line his and his buddies pockets.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pina, you can say "follow the money" about ANY government. Repup or Dem. If you want to follow the corruption in our government to it's roots, it's called no campaign finance reform. Corruption stems from money and money flows into our government from lobbiest, corporations, wealthy individuals, et al. ALL because there are no rules, or weak ones at best, to control who owns whom. Every politician is bought and paid for a hundred fold before he ever gets to the senate or house, let alone the actual executive branch.

My $.02