The Pocket...

Printable View

June 3rd, 2005, 06:31 AM
GoMan

So what exactly is the pocket anyway!!!???

I hear it all the time and yet never really bothered to figure out what it really was. I kinda guessed and thought it was fine until i read some stuff on here thats different from what I thought was the definition of the pocket...

I always used to think it was the quarternote that which becomes the base that the groove becomes rooted in.

Someone told me it was the back beat.. and a pocket player is someone who plays simple 2 4 snare.... somehow i dont think that sounds right.

Someone said it was another way of saying pulse... which i guess is kinda what i thought it was anyway.

I think I read on here that a pocket is playing behind the beat a little to create a more laid back groove and feel... something about playing behind the beat so youll slip in the pocket... or something like that.....

is it something that has a solid definition? I generaly hear this term in association with Gadd, Dennis, Dicenso.. and i think with Chad Smith... but i might be making that last bit up (!?)

I dunno... Just curious. What do you guys think the pocket is? Any help in clarification would help!
Thanks.
June 3rd, 2005, 12:35 PM
Andy Edwards

'I think I read on here that a pocket is playing behind the beat a little to create a more laid back groove and feel... something about playing behind the beat so youll slip in the pocket... or something like that.....'

That sounds about right...
June 3rd, 2005, 12:54 PM
cjbdrm

Pocket is groove.

'in the pocket' means 'in the groove', generally meaning a steady, consistent groove.

'pocket player' means 'groove-oriented' player, or someone known more for their 'pocket playing' than soloing or pyrotechnics

just as there are different variations of grooves, I'm sure there are different variations of pockets...

Now, a drum machine can play a groove, but not really a 'pocket'- so I think it's safe to say that the term 'pocket' also refers to the overall comfortable 'vibe' that can only be created by a human drummer. This could mean playing behind the beat, it could mean playing in the center of the beat...what matters is that the groove is 'locked' with the rest of the rhythm section and that the music feels(and sounds) good.

That's my take...

[ June 03, 2005 10:22 AM: Message edited by: cjbdrm ]
June 3rd, 2005, 01:46 PM
Sweep

'Pocket' makes me think of Jeff Pocaro, Steve Ferrone, John Robinson, Steve Gadd + many more [img]smile.gif[/img]
June 4th, 2005, 04:12 AM
PocketPlayer

[img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img]
June 4th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Dazzler

Quote:

So what exactly is the pocket anyway!!!???

......if you have to ask.....!! [img]wink.gif[/img]
June 4th, 2005, 05:48 PM
matricks

Yeah, if you have to ask, then Dazz is gonna have to let you know [img]tongue.gif[/img]
June 4th, 2005, 06:03 PM
Dazzler

LOL - I suppose I asked for that Matricks!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Ok, let me clarify this long standing debate. Are you ready? Sit down and pay attention....

Pocket:

A small baglike attachment forming part of a garment and used to carry small articles, as a flat pouch sewn inside a pair of pants or a piece of material sewn on its sides and bottom to the outside of a shirt.

A small sack or bag.

A receptacle, cavity, or opening.

I hope I have shed some light and clarified the mystery of pocket. Now go away and get practicing!!! [img]confused.gif[/img]
June 4th, 2005, 06:40 PM
got_a_matchgrip

Re: DazzO's def of "pocket:"

5 [or mat], don't choo even GO there, boyeee!

['Dis ain't the "Just when you thought the state of music couldn't get any worse" thread...] /;cp
June 4th, 2005, 07:00 PM
dr-funkenstein

POCKET as in "in or out of pocket" is certainly pimp slang. the termanolology of being in or out of pocket comes from pimps referring to good hos as in pocket, and bad hos as out of pocket.

see documentary "american pimp." see also sly & the family stone "Fresh"

the pimps slang seeped into musicians slang about creating a good feeling when you play . . . or not. it was slang in the black community and its fair to say its frame of reference came from the black community and the music of the time.

[ June 04, 2005 05:06 PM: Message edited by: dr-funkenstein ]
June 4th, 2005, 11:49 PM
dr-funkenstein

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweep:
'Pocket' makes me think of Jeff Pocaro, Steve Ferrone, John Robinson, Steve Gadd + many more [img]smile.gif[/img]

speaking of john robinson- check out a clip of him playing to a track @ a clinic.

http://homepage.mac.com/matthughen/
June 5th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Sweep

I have done, cheers....

That pretty much sums it all up for me [img]cool.gif[/img]
June 5th, 2005, 01:31 PM
Lee Collins

Quote:

Originally posted by dr-funkenstein:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sweep:
'Pocket' makes me think of Jeff Pocaro, Steve Ferrone, John Robinson, Steve Gadd + many more [img]smile.gif[/img]

speaking of john robinson- check out a clip of him playing to a track @ a clinic.

http://homepage.mac.com/matthughen/<hr /></blockquote>Thanks man, downloading now. Funny, I heard 'all night long' the other day and it made me think,
that drum sound was sooo fat, it was the sound that inspired me to yamaha drums back then, but more importantly, JR's playing on it is fantastic.

edit: wow, that's the first time I've ever seen JR playing. So laid back, and what a great chaka khan tune. I had a video once of chaka live at the roxy with steve ferrone playing drums, and they played that same tune. He really rocked as well.

[ June 05, 2005 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]
June 6th, 2005, 12:08 PM
cjbdrm

Boy, JR would FLIP if he knew his mojo was posted publicly...(downloading)

Ironically, the 'live' version he's playing to here breathes a little(fluctuates), it drags in certain sections...(not that he was struggling, but it's not what he's used to).

It wouldn't be my first choice to exemplify a "pocket", but I enjoyed it anyway. Thanks.

BTW- he nearly busted out a blushda about 3/5's of the way in...

[ June 06, 2005 09:36 AM: Message edited by: cjbdrm ]
June 6th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Sweep

OK...... what would be then?
June 6th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Sweep

I always get the impression that 'pocket' players (especially JR) usually are aiming for a backbeat slightly behind the beat.

A few of the tracks on the live Chaka album Stompin at the Savoy are so behind the beat that they slow down.

This kind of pocket playing seems to me to be a little out of fashion at the moment with some modern R&B/hip-hop programmed beats that have 2 + 4 ahead.
June 6th, 2005, 04:55 PM
davfrancis

Gotta love Stomping at the Savoy.

I liked it so much I bought it twice!

(I am actually not joking either...I am ashamed to say)
June 6th, 2005, 06:16 PM
got_a_matchgrip

Quote:

One of my favs was "Don't You Forget About Me" - Simple Minds (Mel Gaynor). The kick drum work, the 'big fill' in the middle, and the ad-lib hi-hat barks on the out chorus are absolutely killing. In the drum machine 80's, that song gave me assurance that not all 'pop' music was crap

DITTO, that. Also, Si on P Townshend's 'Give Blood,' for another... /;c) [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Quote:

A few of the tracks on the live Chaka album Stompin at the Savoy are so behind the beat that they slow down.
This kind of pocket playing seems to me to be a little out of fashion at the moment with some modern R&B/hip-hop programmed beats that have 2 + 4 ahead.

Absolutely correct. Just listen to T Campbell [A Mydol], A Spears [Usher], B F Moore [Xtina, Janet, Britney, etc], many of the hip-hop/r&b/pop drummers now & the like, & you'll usually hear exactly what you're talking about...

[ June 06, 2005 03:18 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]
June 6th, 2005, 07:44 PM
Groovesmitty

Pocket and Groove are synonomous.
A groove is a small trench. It's below the surface. A pocket is also a space below the surface. To me, the musical definition is being consistantly (slightly) behind the beat.
Another reason why the session all stars prefer to not bury the click. That does not create a pocket.
June 6th, 2005, 09:02 PM
got_a_matchgrip

Quote:

Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
Pocket and Groove are synonomous.
A groove is a small trench. It's below the surface. A pocket is also a space below the surface. To me, the musical definition is being consistantly (slightly) behind the beat.
Another reason why the session all stars prefer to not bury the click. That does not create a pocket.

I tend to agree with that. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
June 7th, 2005, 03:09 AM
cjbdrm

Here are some good ones(no order):

Gaucho - Steely Dan (Jeff Porcaro)
Peg - Steely Dan (Rick Marotta)
Babylon Sisters - Steely Dan (Bernard Purdie)
Hold On I'm Comin' - Sam & Dave (?)
Heatwave - Martha and the Vandellas (Pistol Allen)
Papa Don't Take No Mess - James Brown (Jabo Starks)

stuff like that...
June 7th, 2005, 03:19 AM
got_a_matchgrip

Can ya say, Gary Wright's "Dream WeavAH?" /;c)
[I used to think it was Pretty on this track, but wasn't it Newmark?]

I hear ya cj, & what you listed are def ex's of pocket...

But Bonzo, to me, also had 'P,' but his time ebbed & flowed - [Weckl's Dictionary translation: "it was all over the place"...well, sort of [img]wink.gif[/img] ] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

To me, it doesn't have to be spot-on machine-click time to be pocket; actually, it has to have that spark of human element to really sit well. But the reality is, even those cats that sound the most metronomish are still not exactly spot on machine like [no one is], they've just worked w the click so much that it sounds darn close... ;c) All great drummers, machine-click-like & otherwise [more 'loose'] have great timing &/or click skills.

Anything Gadd, Carlos, Jeff, Kelt, Marottas, Newmark, Ersk, Hakim, Purdie, Dennis, Gaynor, Gould, Collins [Brand X, Genesis], etc have done, IMHO, is 'Pocket.' Husb also has incred P for the fusion element [AWA otherwise!], I actually thought his stuff w AH had a little more P elem than CW [but whom I also dig immensely]...don't read too much into that last one & make it into more than it really is ;c)

BTW - dazz, mat, doc, cj - LOL

[ June 06, 2005 12:37 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]
June 7th, 2005, 03:33 AM
cjbdrm

Absolutely- the time can ebb and flow...with the rest of the music...Earth Wind and Fire is a good example of that...
June 7th, 2005, 03:55 AM
SBdrumz

One of my favs was "Don't You Forget About Me" - Simple Minds (Mel Gaynor). The kick drum work, the 'big fill' in the middle, and the ad-lib hi-hat barks on the out chorus are absolutely killing. In the drum machine 80's, that song gave me assurance that not all 'pop' music was crap!

-Scott
June 11th, 2005, 04:36 PM
Henry II

Quote:

Originally posted by Dazzler:
LOL - I suppose I asked for that Matricks!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Ok, let me clarify this long standing debate. Are you ready? Sit down and pay attention....

Pocket:

A small baglike attachment forming part of a garment and used to carry small articles, as a flat pouch sewn inside a pair of pants or a piece of material sewn on its sides and bottom to the outside of a shirt.

A small sack or bag.

A receptacle, cavity, or opening.

I hope I have shed some light and clarified the mystery of pocket. Now go away and get practicing!!! [img]confused.gif[/img]

Reminds me of an Amos and Andy interview. When Amos was asked how he met Andy, he said: "well I was at a carnival, and I reached back for my wallet to buy some tickets . . . next thing I new I was shaking hands with Andy."

Blahahahahahaahaha . . . sorry, that one always kills me, even when I say it.

[ June 11, 2005 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]
June 11th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Henry II

Quote:

Originally posted by cjbdrm:
Here are some good ones(no order):

Gaucho - Steely Dan (Jeff Porcaro)
Peg - Steely Dan (Rick Marotta)
Babylon Sisters - Steely Dan (Bernard Purdie)
Hold On I'm Comin' - Sam & Dave (?)
Heatwave - Martha and the Vandellas (Pistol Allen)
Papa Don't Take No Mess - James Brown (Jabo Starks)
stuff like that...

"Black Cow" and "Home at Last" are about as deep as a pocket gets.

BTW, there's such a thing as a swingin' pocket too. Check out "Organ Grinder's Swing" by Jimmy Smith with Grady Tate on drums. Swings like a monkey on crack.

[ June 11, 2005 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]
June 11th, 2005, 08:28 PM
got_a_matchgrip

LOL

Word.

All FINE examples of that elusive & much sought after exotic animal, "the [Phat] Pocket." [img]wink.gif[/img]

Speaking of Marotta w Dan, check his RH grip on the hats in that making Of Steely Dan album DVD...so loose, the stick looks like a limp spaghetti noodle in his hand. Gotta love it. [img]cool.gif[/img]

I'm listening to Dan's Greatest ["A Decade of SD"] right now. Back in my early Rush daze [early to mid 80s], I almost totally missed out on the 'concept'...i said, almost. [img]wink.gif[/img]

All those great musos, including drummers Jeff, Gordon, Hodder, Pretty, Marotta, Gadd, Ersk, Dennis, Vince, etc [2 Against Nature]...

MAN, that SD sh** was some bad-a** hip tasty groovin' RnB-jazz-funky-pop-rock stuff.

[ June 11, 2005 05:45 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]
June 11th, 2005, 09:48 PM
JoesMechanic

To me....

When all the musicians in the band are swinging their heads, the audience is doing the same thing, and eventually the bass player looks at you with a big cheshire cat smile and says.

yeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh............
June 12th, 2005, 03:52 AM
dr-funkenstein

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cjbdrm:
It wouldn't be my first choice to exemplify a "pocket", but I enjoyed it anyway. Thanks.

whew, we got the pocket police out!!! check out the new vid: SUGARFOOT!!!

this is a pocket you could fit a star jones into!
http://homepage.mac.com/matthughen/