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Why do non-Christians say to Christians when they're talking about, say, a product that "You don't have to buy it if it offends you." But if the Christians put out a product that promotes their religion and it offends someone its "intolerant" or "pushy"? [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]
Well, it isn't only non christans who say this. Not all Christan Denominations agree... and because of this... what is a wrong product for you might not be for the church down the street.
Most Christian denominations agree on the fundamentals. IF they are Bible-believing (which means they believe in the whole Bible and everything it says) then they will follow the Bible and there's no problem.
The problem is Bible believing Christians disagree about what the Bible means/says. I didn't say this - Billy Graham did in Newsweek this week! And he certainly believes the Bible.
I might read one passage and get an entirely different meaning than another Christian. We need to realize that it is ok to think about and disucss what the Bible means.
Oh I beg to differ... see you view everything as black or white... but its not the problem with what's in the bible... that everyone has the same copy of the bible... but how people interpret the verse. For example, Church of Christ believes that you have to be completely immursed in water to be baptised... while prespyterians (excuse spelling) believe that sprinkling new borns is acceptable.
Then you go to catholics who believe that man is not saved by grace alone... because faith without works is dead... and Calvinist protestants believe that it is by grace alone in the absense of works that one is saved... We can go to predestination... penance... all the way back to the Hebrews with the prayer shawl... and having excluded the blue strand (even though thats what the Lord commanded) because the 12 tribes couldn't agree what shade of blue it should be.
Just because we all have the same copy of the same book doesn't mean we are all reading the same thing into it.
I mean there are Christians out there who do not even believe Jesus is God but actually the archangel Michael... and that Jesus is only divine as an angelic host is divine. That would be a jehovah witness.
So no... there are no fundamentals that everyone can agree on... not even the basic ten commandments.
I guess I'm talking about true Christians. People who don't believe Jesus is God the Son are not true Christians.
Yes, I see what you mean about the Bible being interpreted differently, and there are some little thigns that we disagree on. However, true Christians agree on the basics.
Though I agree that having a discussion on the Bible is a good thing.
Also: What does this have to do with my original post? Christians (whatever their denomination) are always being accused of being "intolerant" "pushy" "tactless" or some other equally untrue thing.
You throw the words "True christian around" precariously. I mean HOW DO YOU KNOW that your branch of christianity is right? How do you know that your interpretation is right?! By jewish tradtion (as in the days of moses... when God actually spoke to people physically) the age of reasoning was 19... I'm pretty sure you aren't 19. Unless I can call you Sammuel and you are a child prodagy where God has physically spoken with you and sat you down by a burning bush and revieled His many secrets... you do not... will not know for certain.
You my child are a PROTESTant.. which means that your beliefs are the result of a PROTEST from another branch of Christianity... that would be Catholisisim. Denominations sake off beliefs every other day it seems like.
The best you can do is try to follow you heart... and interpret God's word as best you can... and PRAY that you have interpreted correctly...
I have a pleathra of biblical knowledge under my belt... but not even I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt whose right and whose wrong... the only thing you can do is take the bible literally and follow it to a tee... which is humanly impossible... Only two men have ever existed on this earth perfect... that was Adam... and he fell... and Jesus Christ... whom was God himself... not you, me, the pope or even Billy Graham
First of all, I'm non-Denominational. I believe in the original Christianity (which, contrary to popular belief, was not Catholicism) and try to follow Jesus as best I can.
I know that what I believe is right because I have faith. I have faith that Jesus is the Son of God and faith that everything in the Bible is true and I have faith that I am interpreting it correctly through the Holy Spirit which God gave all believers. If you are not sure of your beliefs, what good are they?
So, does that mean that no one's opinion counts until they are 19? (I will not tell you my age as I feel it is unsafe to do so on the internet.)
I am SURE I'm not perfect. I may even have some things wrong. But I'm not talkign about those. I'm talkig about the fundamentals...the BIG things that all Christians agree on.
I'm not saying that I do not have faith... but I don't doubt that the genuine faith that others who don't see eye to eye with me have.
If with all my heart I believe that God ment for us to be baptised by being completly immersed in water...and that my faith in this is strong enough to risk my life
And (hypothetically) you believe that baptisim must be done as an infant and you must be sprinkled... and you believe this with all your heart and that your faith is so strong where you would risk your life...
Who is right? Who has more faith?
It doesn't mean something is right just because the most people believe it the most strongly. Something is right because God says so. Because it IS, in other words. I have faith that I know what this right thing is.
One could have faith that the sky is hot pink all day and believe that with all their hearts...doesn't make it true.
As for what this has to do with the original post: This all started because you thought all christians shared the same belief about being taught to "deal with it and not buy a product"
My point was saying that no some christians say the same thing... its not the pagans of the world alone... then we got off on a tangent about just how much christians butt heads and can't agree on things.
And to clarify what I was saying as for as whose right and whose wrong...w e aren't gonna know until the day we are before God and we ask him point blank and we hear the answer from his lips... and that's if he finds us even worthy of being in his presence... because He who has ears listen.
Oh, I didn't see your point then. No, I didn't mean it was just the unsaved who said that. But mostly when a person who agrees with the mainstream (the unsaved) puts out somethign offensive to Christians, they'll say something like "deal with it and just don't buy it". But those same people will say "that's so offensive, intolerant, tactless, and pushy" if a Christian tries to promote their religion...no matter what denomination of Christianity they are from.
Some things we won't know until we ask God about them, true. But other things we know now without a doubt...like God exists, Jesus is His Son, the Bible is His Word, etc.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 07, 2006 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>
Hey Miss_Nellie! Glad to hear from you. You seem to have a lot to contribute. Thanks for filling me in on the Jehovah's Witnesses, I wondered what their quirk was.
Tra, it doesn't mean that being under 19 makes one's opinion not count. It means that one has no opinion to be counted at all! Like people can't compare armpit hair length until they've begun to grow it.
IMO, before people form opinions of their own, they hold the opinions elders have given them. While I learned that the age people begin to think critically is 12, I think the point at which people form their opinions depends heavily on who a person is and their life experiences. Someone who has had to struggle for their own existence and thus has experienced many things may begin to form their own opinions at 10. Basically their fight has forced the brain to mature quicker. Those who live very sheltered lives, or just mature slower, could take until 20 to be able to form their own opinions. And I'm talking about moral, social, religious, and other such deep opinions. A 2-year-old can have opinions on what cereals she prefers. I know a 22-year-old who hasn't matured enough to truly form his own opinions.
I agree with everything you've said Sarah.
As for Christians not being able to get away with the same thing another religion might (such as public prayer)... its partly our own fault... We've put a bad taste in people's mouths... How many other religions go door to door like an encylapidia sales man? Most Chrisitians don't really listen to the people they are trying to convert? No matter what they say our snappy combacks are "Jesus is Lord... REPENT AND BE SAVED!"
Well that isn't gonna convert anyone... its like a Satanist walking up to you and have them use your same converting speech expet use satan as the deity... You definatly aren't gonne listen and you definatly aren't gonna convert.
Everyone a Christian speaks to who is not blanketed under his or her own faith, believes their morals and deity is THE right morals and deity. 99% of the time Chrisitians don't take that into account... for some reason we live with the delusion that THEY know they are wrong... and if I just hit them over the head with it a few times... they'll turn that new leaf...
Instead we create contempt and some times down right hatered.
This is why its acceptable to have Baal dance across the TV screen during a Jerry Springer episode... Baal hasn't told us we are going to **** ... Baal hasn't tried to convert us... Baal hasn't told us we were wrong and he was right without any proof... and Baal sure as H-E-double hocky sticks doesn't come to our house uninvited and bang on the front door for 15 minutes... Because of this the world might just tolerate Baal
Don't get me wrong... I believe we are right... but what good is all that cosmic knowledge when we don't use any sentence combination other than:
"I'm right" "You are going to **** " "That's wrong"
Because we know each of us would just be tripping over ourselves to have someone say that to us!
I, too, think opinions are formed at different ages for different people. I don't, however, discount other people's opinions because they haven't reached a certain age. My opinions are very strong and very sure, yet I am young. These opinions are my own...what I've gotten from reading the Bible, etc. I do agree that our opinions have some basis on what we were taught growing up and who we were. That doesn't make our opinions any less valid.
I don't think it's fair to blame Christians for doing what God said. The Great Commission is to make disciples of every nation. Some people just don't necessarily know how to do that. Lots of Christians have great arguements for why they should believe in Christ. Most Christians don't go around saying "I'm right, you're wrong, covert or die." We can acknowledge other people's beliefs without giving in to them. There is no chance ***insert religion other than Christianity here*** is right. We must be respectful of their beliefs in a certain way, but we don't have to say, "Maybe you're right..." because that isn't so.
As for Baal dances...is that true... [img]graemlins/cry_smile.gif[/img] Scary. How can something evil be more acceptable than something good?
I've never really seen Baal dance on jerry springer just a hypothetical idea.
Why is evil accepted and good rejected? Evil is easy. It doesn't demand anything OF you... its conviniant.
As for Christians who have that attitude... you yourself come across in this manner. I've spoken with alot of christians on AG message boards and they agree too..
You don't have to give acceptance or even tolerate immoral practices... But it never ends there. This isn't ment as an attack just the blunt truth of how you come across. You don't care who you try to convert... you treat everyone with the same contempt... its harsh but reality..89% of things you say come across as self-righteous... and that's not the way to get ANYONE to listen to your message.
I think you have a good heart and are trying to do what you think is right... but I think you need to re-evaluate your stratagy of "doing"
Pick your battles carefully, not even Christ himself rose to every ploy the Pharisees threw at him... neither should we.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Possibly because some of them are?Quote:
Christians (whatever their denomination) are always being accused of being "intolerant" "pushy" "tactless" or some other equally untrue thing.
I've never in my life had a friend that was Hindu, Jewish, Wiccan, or Buddhist try to tell me that I was going to go to burn for all eternity* for disagreeing with their spiritual views.
I've never had anyone from any of the above religions knock on the door when I'm still half asleep and shove pamphlets at me.
I know some very nice people who are Christian. I've also met a number of Christians who are jerks. The two are not mutually exclusive.
* I find it odd that on a Christian discussion board, it's automaticalyl censored if you refer to "heck" (as in the place).
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 08, 2006 01:19 AM: Message edited by: ButtercupFlibble ]</font>
Tra, I don't think blunt is the best way to describe your problem. The problem is that you tend to state something you perceive as fact in one or two sentences without any explanation. Most times, many people do not agree with your perceived fact, and the lack of explanation leaves no room for discussion or understanding. This is the worst when you reply to someone in this manner. It appears that you have not even bothered to think about what they are trying to say. So I guess you have a lack of wordiness that comes across as flaming.
[quote]Originally posted by ButtercupFlibble:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think HB censors that automatically. It's not on my list of "additional censored words"...Quote:
* I find it odd that on a Christian discussion board, it's automaticalyl censored if you refer to "heck" (as in the place).
<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ August 08, 2006 01:19 AM: Message edited by: ButtercupFlibble ]</font></font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I tried to explain things very clearly in a certain situation I've recently been in, yet people still don't seem to get it. I also think a lot about what a lot of people say. Sometimes I dismiss it entirely, yes. (Not always, however.) It's ok to definitively call something wrong. And why should something that is wrong be figured into your considerations?Quote:
Originally posted by SarahS:
Tra, I don't think blunt is the best way to describe your problem. The problem is that you tend to state something you perceive as fact in one or two sentences without any explanation. Most times, many people do not agree with your perceived fact, and the lack of explanation leaves no room for discussion or understanding. This is the worst when you reply to someone in this manner. It appears that you have not even bothered to think about what they are trying to say. So I guess you have a lack of wordiness that comes across as flaming.
What I perceive as truth...what is truth...is very simple and can often be stated in a few sentences. There's often no wiggle room. Some people don't like that. Some people want to be able to say "well, maybe this is right, or maybe a compromise of thing A and thing B can work better." It just doesn't work that way. I think that truth is often if not most of the time as simple as 2+2=4. I guess I don't think it always needs explaination. It seems blatantly obvious. I realize that to some, it is not. And in those cases I try to explain what I mean, as I am doing now. I hope you don't think I've taken what you've all said lightly or as nothing. Unless I know you to be wrong, (and on this thread, I don't) I will consider what you have to say. I always have.
Thanks for all your imput.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Isn't it wrong to take something that can be attributed to some members of a group and apply it to the whole? That would be prejudice. If you judge God or true Christianity by some Christians you will get a skewed picture of what God/Christianity is like. God is perfect. Christians are not.Quote:
Possibly because some of them are?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Isn't it wrong to take something that can be attributed to some members of a group and apply it to the whole? That would be prejudice. If you judge God or true Christianity by some Christians you will get a skewed picture of what God/Christianity is like. God is perfect. Christians are not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right, it is wrong to judge some members of a group and apply it to the whole. People still do it every day.Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Possibly because some of them are?
I'm not commenting on what I do or do not think about Christians or Christianity as a whole. You were asking why people in general think that Christians are pushy, etc, and I really think that that's why.
Most of the nicer Christians I've had the pleasure to meet don't bring it up unless the discussion turns to religion.
Just like with any group, it's the loud, annoying ones - loud, uninvited knocks on the door just as you've gotten the baby to finally lie down for a nap - that skew the picture.
Something that is wrong should be figured into your considerations because the other person probably believes it, and you need to be aware of this fact when composing your argument.
I know you're fond of the "sky is blue" example, so I'll use that. "The sky is blue." That is a fact and can be stated in one sentence as such. This is great as long as everyone agrees on this truth. But in many situations, people don't agree on truths, so you need to imagine that you're talking to someone who does not believe that the sky is blue. This statement is meaningless to them. You therefore need to elaborate on this point. When doing so, it is helpful to know why they don't think the sky is blue. Perhaps you need to explain that blue is a certain wavelength of light, or that we perceive the blue because that's the part of the spectrum not absorbed, or whatever other facts explain the sky being blue.
ETA: I assume you are young. As you get farther in your schooling, you will learn more and more in your writing classes about the importance of assessing your audience. This step in composing something is as important as steps you may already be familiar with such as brainstorming ideas or composing an outline.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 08, 2006 05:27 AM: Message edited by: SarahS ]</font>
Oh good...no Baal dances! PHEW!
You're right about the evil thing.
You're probably right about how I come across, too. I don't try to come across that way, but I suppose I let anger get the better of me sometimes. I suppose I am too blunt, also. I just say what is true without sugar coating it in any way, and I suppose no one is going to like that. Thanks for your input.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 08, 2006 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>
I am not that young, actually. Well, it depends on your defintion of young. I have heard of assessing your audience, and I get what you're saying about having to describe the blue sky and explain it. I thought I was doing that. Maybe I need to get a little more in depth. Of course, no one listens when I talk about the Bible, the main source of my arguements. "It's circular reasoning" they say. It's not. Guess I'll have to show that more. Look at the Bible. Look at history and all that's come true from the Bible. The sky is blue is blue is blue the sky is blue today! Thanks! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Funny, you've been so much clearer on your convictions and beliefs here than you have been on any other board. Have you considered that maybe your arguement are coming across wrong when you are "out of your element"
This is what I have found works for me when I'm speaking to someone who does not share my religious beliefs. You can't just quote from the bible... because as far as the other party is concerned its a book of historical fiction. Kinda like how serious you'd take someone quoting the Tao. What you need to do is take Science and History... give them the facts from there, then show them how the Bible backs up those facts.
Like we are using the whole "the sky is blue" statement... keep in mind you are talking to a blind man when you are saying that... he's never seen the sky... and its your word... tell him why the sky is blue... break it down to the molecular level. Hand him the One and One and have him add it up together... they are only ever gonna come to the answer of 2.
Just like a trial attorney... all you can do is present the evidence and hope to sway the jury.
You have to be careful with quoting the Bible. As we've said before, there are many interpretations of it. If you use a quote with no explanation, it's not very informative.
I think Miss Nellie has a good point. I will definitely listen to science and history before Bible quotes.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I never thought about it, but I think you have a point. Actually, I think I feel freer here to say what I believe because there are no censors saying I can't talk about religion like there are at the other boards I am a member of. I can actually mention the words "Christ, God, Jesus, Bible, etc." without fear of being banned. I can say what I mean without having to circumnavigate the point in order to avoid offending someone. It IS a lot easier to say what I want here. Unfortunately, not as many people frequent this board as the other boards, and on one of the other boards I am not even allowed to link to this board, so no one there gets my point. I would give up trying to say anything of religious import anywhere but here except for that.Quote:
Originally posted by Miss_Nellie_OMalley:
Funny, you've been so much clearer on your convictions and beliefs here than you have been on any other board. Have you considered that maybe your arguement are coming across wrong when you are "out of your element"
As for the blind man analogy...I like that. Try to describe to a blind man that the sky is blue and why. I guess, then, you'd have to start at the most basic level... "There is a sky..."
The thing about science and history is...I'd sooner believe Bible quotes than that. If the Bible told me the world would end tomorrow...regardless of the fact that science and patterns of history say the sun is going to rise, I would believe the Bible.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A little bit of a joke... but as taken from Nacho LibreQuote:
Originally posted by SarahS:
I think Miss Nellie has a good point. I will definitely listen to science and history before Bible quotes.
"I don't believe in God... I believe in SCY.. ENCE... I know this water gypsy..."
Oh that movie made my so happy..
Well the problem with that is that some poeple you are speaking to don't believe the bible you have to show them why to believe the bible... such as if the bible said the world is going to end tomorrow... yes according to science the sun will be rising tomorrow... and shouldn't implode for another few million years... however science can't predict every metor in route... if north korea will use its nucs... or if some obscure terrorist has created a deadly bio-weapon that will infect the world inless the 24 hours killing people instantly.
Science tells us these things ARE possible, and that leads to the bible being accurate about end times.
For example... 100 years ago grapes and oranges blooming in the Holy Lands would have been unbelievable...with today's genetic engineering and advanced algriculture methods... not only is this fictional idea a possibility, as stated in the bible, but a REALITY.
Yes, science, true science, is always compatible with the Bible. Actually, so is history (which shows that all of the prophecies (that are not set for the future) have come true.)
I believe faith is much more important than science (read Hebrews 11), though. I guess some people need science, even if only to lead them to faith. But those who need science to prove everything to them will never be sure because there are some things about God we are not able to and are not meant to know.
A few things:
If you're talking about the world ending, you need to explain what the means. Sounds like you're talking about people going extinct? I guess, define "the world". Because that just makes me think of the planet, and none of the things mentioned will destroy the planet, unless it's a really, really big meteor.
How does science explain people living for 100s of years in the Bible?
Isn't it odd that we capitalize "Bible" but not "the"? I mean, it's a title of a book. And if the title is just supposed to be "Bible," then why do we put the "the" in front of it at all?
Science can agree that some things we are not able to know (though we hope in the future we are), but the issue of not being meant to know is more ethical than scientific (we do see discussions on scientific porgress of this sort). So science isn't completely different than faith.
I cannot believe that any one religion is right and the rest is wrong, so I believe they are all right. They are interpretting something so far beyond our current comprehension that it's scary. We find ways to make it more familiar and less scary. God is anthropomorphizing It. Other religions have animorphized It. I'm cool with thinking we don't know jack. But I imagine It to be something closer to what we call energy or spirit. The beauty of religions is that they allow people to form communities, which I think is an important part of It. Unfortunately, I have trouble getting past the negatives of religions. In order to form communities, others have to be left out.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know, I think that's a really interesting philosophy. Terry Pratchett onece wrote that "I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is."Quote:
Originally posted by SarahS:
I cannot believe that any one religion is right and the rest is wrong, so I believe they are all right. They are interpretting something so far beyond our current comprehension that it's scary. We find ways to make it more familiar and less scary. God is anthropomorphizing It. Other religions have animorphized It. I'm cool with thinking we don't know jack. But I imagine It to be something closer to what we call energy or spirit. The beauty of religions is that they allow people to form communities, which I think is an important part of It.
I'm sure I don't know what's going or why it's happening on most of the time. But hey, that's how it is, so I'm cool with it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really don't agree completely with any religion, so I sort of take the good stuff that makes sense and leave the rest.Quote:
Unfortunately, I have trouble getting past the negatives of religions. In order to form communities, others have to be left out.
Religions are more than just communities. They are ways of life...at least Christianity is supposed to be that way. It is supposed to permeate everything we do. Also, everyone is welcome to become a Christian, so really, no one is left out.
While there are some things we aren't meant to know, there are some things we can and do know, that which is in the Bible. There is no "making God into something we humans can understand." We were made in His image, so we already know somewhat what God is like. Then we have the Bible, which tells us the rest of what we're supposed to know. There are some things we just won't know until we get to Heaven.
One day, all will know that Jesus is the Christ and Son of the Living God. Then all will bow to Jesus...no matter what they may have previously believed.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just meant that communities are the good thing that comes out of all religions. I find everything else questionable. Religion as a way of life leads people to do really good and really bad things.Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
Religions are more than just communities.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There's a writer I like quite a lot that wrote (and I'm paraphrasing here) that it's better to have ideas about things than it is to have beliefs because it's a lot easier to change an idea as you grow and get new information and form your own opinions than it is to have beliefs that you never change and never question.Quote:
Originally posted by SarahS:
Religion as a way of life leads people to do really good and really bad things.
Personally I just try to be a good person, try to help people when I can, etc. If that's not enough in the end, whatever.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But how are people supposed to know what "the right thing" is unless they think for themselves? Wiccans believe that Wicca is The Right Thing. You've stated that you believe that Christianity is The Right Thing. Muslims believe that Islam is The Right Thing. Buddhists believe that Buddhism is The Right Thing.Quote:
Originally posted by Tra:
I think I prefer beliefs, because it is so important to believe the right thing and to believe it all the time, not just change it at the drop of a hat.
People have different life experiences. Some people are raised into their faiths, while others convert from one to another later in life. What exactly, without quoting any holy books, makes any one faith more valid than another?
There are many different beliefs that are The Right Thing to many different people, so perhaps it's just best for someone to decide what is The Right Thing for them.
It seems to me that different people have different needs, emotionally and spiritually. Some of these needs can be met better by different forms of faith. Personally I don't think a god that can't understand that is a god worth believing in.
Everyone may think they are truly the happiest they can be in their religion...they're not. Only Christianity leads to true happiness as only following God and doing His will leads to good.