Tony

I was thumbing through
the Village Voice one
day, looking under drum
instruction, hoping that
I would find Billy Cobham,
of course, knowing that
I wouldn't... and what
turns up but this tiny
little ad that says that
Tony Williams is now ac-
cepting students for a
short time. My eyes fell
out of their sockets. I
called immediately.

I talked with someone
who's voice was a lot
higher than I expected,
taking down the inform-
ation about a Friday
lesson at 4:30pm. I
was SO excited! I was
going to take lessons
with the greatest drum-
mer in the world, I told
my mom, whom I borrowed
the money from.

I went to his apartment
on W141st Street. I now
forget the address but
I remember the corner
store very well.

The stoop was long and
went straight up, it
seemed. I took a deep
breath, having been wond-
ering what this moment
would be like.

I rang the bell and Alan
Pasqua answered. I did
not know who he was until
later on.

"I'm here for my lesson
with Tony Williams."

"Are you sure you have a
lesson with Tony today?"

"It's Friday at 4:30pm.
Yes. I have waiting for
this day all week."

"Well, OK... He went to
the store on the corner
for some cigars but he'll
be right back. Why don't
you wait right here for
him? As a matter of fact,
that's him walking up the
street right now."

He went back inside.

In the distance, I saw a
thin man walking up the
block, towards me. I sat
on the steps waiting.

When he came to the steps,
he looked up at me.

"You're NOT Peter, are
you, here for a drum
lesson, right?

"Yes, I am."

"That was for NEXT Friday,
not today!"

All I could was look down...

He stopped and introduced
himself. "Hi, I'm Tony
Williams.", reaching out
with his right hand.

Shaking, I greeted him.

"Peter, the first you have
to do is relax. RELAX."

I could never relax around
him and looking back, that
was about the nicest he
was to me...

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 05, 2003 11:52 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

The Yellow Submarine. It was
way in the back of a long
and mostly empty apartment.
There was a piano.

The jumpsuit, only live, from
what I could tell, which was
not much.

I asked who he listened to and
he said himself.

Now, you have to realize that
before I went to him, I was
a rocker, playing ELP and Yes.
I asked him if he liked Palmer
and he said, "Who?"

I'm pretty sure he told me that
he did not live far from Miles
place and that Miles house had
a sign on the front door that
said the following:

"You better have a good reason
for knocking on this door."

He never broke any rims, to my
knowledge but it sure looked
like he would one night at the
"Bottom Line".

Hiram Bullock had replaced Alan
Holdsworth on guitar and some
people in the audience were dis-
appointed and let it be known.

After "Sweet Revenge", Tony got
up, announced the band and walked
off the stage. They did NOT come
back and we were sent home.

I don't know about the Vanguard
but he was playing very loud but
that's where he was going. He
was changing. He wanted to play
harder, faster - become more
athletic behind the kit. It was
a "thing" with him.

I don't think it was about the
music, at this time but that's
my perception. It seemed to me
that his performances were very
egocentric. He would try and work
new ideas, right in the middle of
a tune. I can see him miss the
black dot and he'd stop. The band
kept going. Then, he'd attempt
the riff again and again until
he got it. He would then go on
with the tune. Remmember that
these tunes had a lot of vamp
in them and there was a lot of
room for him to shed blood.

You had to be there. It was kind
of eerie sometimes. Maybe it's
the music I'm playing, while I
am writing this...

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2003 01:28 AM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

"I can see him miss the
black dot and he'd stop. The band
kept going."

[img]wink.gif[/img] .

What a wonderful story ! It gives me the creeps.

Wonder why he liked black dots top and bottom?

Exactly - I wondered that too, watching his Live video. Black Dots sound like boxes, in my opinion. I used to play them when I was in my Alex Van Halen phase. I would think a nice set of coated Ambassadors would have been a nicer sound.

Peter:
Do you teach drums, or are you in a advisory role to youth in other ways? (I see you are a father, which is the most important role of all!) I guess you could be a counter-example to the way Tony acted towards you, by reaching out to young people in a positive way. (It sounds like you do already with your son - I know that my sons embody everything worthwhile that I'll ever do in my life...)

I'd love to be a drum teacher someday. Like a coach, Scoutmaster, etc... It's such a great opportunity to shape young lives, and show that there is great strength/machismo in kindness....

What drums did Tony have set up in his apartment, peter? I'm amazed New Yorkers allow drums in apartments. Texan apartment dwellers would bust a cap in you after one note!

Moving one's drums from room to room requires serious re-tuning. What sounds good in the practice space often sounds awful on the stage.

I used to be a black dot man until I sat in on a set with coated heads. Now I'm a firm believer in them. I have relatively small DW toms and can't decide if coated Emperors make them sound fatter than coated Ambassadors. The tidy whack of Tony and Bonham's black dots can't be denied though. I loved the sound of Vinnie's drums at the Zildjian Day in NY and tried some pinstripes but they didn't sound like Vinnie's.

I'm not one of the foremost drummers on the planet though. [img]confused.gif[/img]

Tony was in a place. I
can't explain it. I can
only now look back on it
and try and envision what
was going on that animat-
ed his behavior as it did
but of course, that's just
speculation. I wasn't his
brother or anything like
that. You have to take
what I say with a few
grains of salt.

I was very young, when I
studied with him. As a
youngster, you look at
the world differenty. I
was never a shy person
but I was impressionable.

To give you an example,
after I took my first few
lessons with him, I start-
ed smoking the gastly Tip-
arellos. See what I mean?

It's just like a teen to
do that. He was the top
to me and I believed that
there was no other way to
go but then this was ano-
ther sign of the idealist-
ic boy, looking for the
'unified field theory',
the 'answer of answers'.
I wanted a "total package"
and he was it (then). I
wanted to be him but of
course, I could not be
him and eventually would
not, an inevitability.

I didn't realize that my
world was going to cont-
inue to change and includ-
ing what I wanted for my-
self and the drums; not
to mention the huge life-
changes that were just
down the road. You just
don't have foresight as
a teen. No one does. It's
more like hope (which is
not a bad thing).

Everyone has ideas about
Tony and they all have
their reasons for them.

While I may have stud-
ied with him doesn't
mean that much, though.
Many others have had
more intimate contact
with him.

We have to realize that
even though they (I) may
have, it doesn't mean any-
thing more than having a
video, that others didn't
or don't have or perhaps a
cd that isn't generally
available, if you know
what I mean.

On the other hand, based
on what he said, did and
tried to make me do, I
might have an idea of
where he might have
wanted to go. Still,
that's just speculation,
though it comes easy to
me, it being my job.

"Wildnerness" was a fit-
ting swan song for him.
Apparently, he was real-
ly focusing on his comp-
ositional talents, later
on. He really started
listening to classical
music alot more and also
filmscores, which I also
find ironic, since I am
a collector of it.

He was very complex but
as most of us are. I am
fortunate to have my
little experience with
him, as misunderstood as
they were, at the time
and now, I have the bene-
fit of 30 years of exper-
iences to water down,
dilute and/or enhance
these memories for re-
consumption. I try and
think that I do under-
stand them better.

I'll put that with the
grains of salt, a glass
of water, shavings of
a 2B and again try and
rationalize why the US
dollar is trading against
the stock market.

[img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

GREAT stories Peter, thanks for sharing.

The New York Live show floors me every time.

I do not teach. I did
for a very short time.

I'm not a strong reader
and I believe that is
important for young
drummers to develop.

I've always been able
to work but because of
my ear. Of course, I
could not get any shows
or large ensemble gigs,
that being the case.

Young drummers NEED to
read music. They need
to be able to support
themselves financially
in their playing. This
is the best way to open
that door.

I talk to A LOT of drum-
mers, though, sharing
ideas and encouraging
them to move on; trying
to be as positive as I
can, while maintaining
a critical eye, which is
VERY hard to translate.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Oh, the heads - I have
NO idea why he liked
those heads. I can't
say that I ever liked
the way they sounded
but since he used them,
so did I. I think they
were good targets. At
least, that's my im-
pression. What other
purpose they could
have served? I think
he might have liked
the look of them but
who knows. He never
said. At least, not
about that. Not that
he was talkative, to
which I'm his anti-
thesis but when he
talked, I had to list-
en... or else!

Yes, that "NY Live"
is cool. You can see
his muscle development
(all up in his neck)
and arms. Notice the
leveraging against the
throne, when he'd be
kickin' hard. Video
of Tony is really
priceless for drummers
who've never seen him.

Watching him for years
really places in persp-
ective what he said
VERSUS what he did. I
had a hard time grap-
pling with some of his
concepts and had to ex-
orcize some of these
demons later on. I had
help though.

It's nice to share the
few stories that I have
with you all.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Did you get lessons on the bebop set or the big yellow tubs? What kind of records were in his collection or did you dare look? I can't imagine being inside Tony's apartment, what was that like? Did he ever wear that green jumpsuit offstage or was he a jeans and T-shirt kind of guy? That last question is crazy but those details fascinate me.

Wow! Great F@%# story! I won't sleep tonight after that one.
Btw: I heard Tony was hitting so hard during that time that he was breaking rims. Is that true or an old wives tale?
I also heard he was banned from playing the Village Vanguard due to his volume. Is that true as well? You know rumors take on a life of their own after awhile.

As a HUGE fan of Tony I have been eating up your reminisces Peter but that one is an absolute classic which makes me love him even more.

That man was the coolest!

As far as I'm concerned, Tony was the onyl genius of the drums I know of.

I remember the first time I heard Emergency. It was so damn out there but the drums were so logical and precise even though it seemed helter skelter and fluid. I was blown away. His "inside flamming", as I call those patterns between the ride, BD and snare, were something I'd never heard before. ANd the force he could play his ideas with, amazing.

And the thing is, you can listen to Tony one day and hear something and on another day, if you are in a different mood or different attention level, you hear something totally new that you didn't hear before and it is just as spine tingling.

With Vinnie or Dave, or even Cobham and Gadd, I don't get that "view" or perspective changing. They are more straightforward, complex but less deep. But I do hear that with Neil, go figure. I also hear that in vinnie Appice's playing of all people. I think it may have something to do with their interpretation and prhasing of the music.

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and stories Peter C. I look forward to reading your posts everyday. Did you say you studied with Billy Cobham? If so; details!!(youthfully excited)

I did NOT study with Billy,
though he has helped me
over the last 3-4 years on
his site, my second home,
really.

Always an admirer of his in-
credible skill and music, he
has taken a personal interest
in some of our activities.

For instance, when I had a
debilitating arm condition,
he coaxed me into playing
"open" or leading with my
left-hand. I have never been
the same since.

He's also a very philosphical
and principled man - a real
joy to exchange with. We have
talked about EVERYTHING there.

I have a few Billy stories too,
not to mention Steve Gadd.

I wish I could have studied
with him but he's practically
taught me, while being on his
site. He's got great ideas.

Do you have his "Conundrum"
play-along? It's great stuff
to work on.

Check this arrangement out
from it:

www.thediametrixletter.com/stratus9.mp3

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2003 06:10 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Peter, I'd love to hear some more stories. Question: I saw Billy years ago at a clinic and when he was introduced it was mentioned that he was the drummer on the original Mission Impossible theme. Can you confirm this?

I don't think that's true
but I asked him. I'll let
you know what he says, if
he does.

Did you check out that ar-
rangement of "Stratus"? It's
a lot of fun to play to. I
think every drummer should
have it.

I'm kind of swamped with
market stuff but I will try
and tell a Billy story to-
morrow, perhaps start a
"Billy" thread. I have a
few decent ones.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2003 06:43 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Sounds good. Thanks for that great clip. I'm downloading it now.

Here's something that Tony
liked to do to torture me.
In order to get me to hold
onto the stick, sometimes,
while moving around the kit,
he'd set the toms, tilted
in the opposite direction.
Yes. That's right. The drums
were facing away from me.

He also set them up with
large spaces between them,
the cymbals way up in the
area, so I'd have to fully
extend to reach them.

He tried to keep everything
equidistant, at the same
time, out from the center
of my body. What a stretch.

We were heel-down in the
kick at all times, not the
HH, however.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2003 10:02 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

The drummer on Mission
Impossible was NOT Billy
Cobham. It was the great
Shelley Manne.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

I bought Tony Williams records for ten years before I got to see him. When I finally did it was a trip seeing him execute all those Tony licks. I liked the way he sometimes rolled, each stick on a separate tom, then taking it down from high to low keeping the sticks on different drums the whole time.

Reminds me of the second
lesson (I think), when I
asked him about "Fred".

I wanted to know if he was
really riding that fast on
the HH or if he was just
depressing the HH for one
of the strokes. I think I
might have offended him.

He pointed at the kit and
told me to kneel down by
the HH and then he whaled
the pattern right there in
front of my eyes AND ears...

[img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

...He then stopped and said:

"That's why it's called BELIEVE IT."

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2003 05:28 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Photos of Tony show him playing in leather-soled shoes as well as sneakers. Did he have any preference that you know of, Pete? He probably could've played in galoshes and we not be able to tell the difference.

None that I know of.

Playing heel-down gave
him the highest degree
of control. It was VERY
powerful. After seeing
him, I went heel-down,
just until recently and
even now, it's a variat-
ion of heel-down; not a
total heel-up approach.

Perhaps that's not a to-
tally fair statement. At
times, my heel will be
down on the footboard
or the floor, just below
the footboard, for the
double-strokes.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 07, 2003 11:05 AM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

The Bonham bounce'll do that to you. Maybe you should wear tennis shoes. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Game set and match'd grip there 5! [img]smile.gif[/img]

That's plimsouls to you, Me2. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Tony used to charge me $25 for
90-minutes. Yea, he battered
me the whole time but I felt like
he gave me his time. Of course,
this was 1976-1978.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Two men say they're Jesus, one of 'em must be wrong. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

LOL 5; me...u guys crack me up...net ball...

Quote fr peter c:
"..he'd set the toms, tilted
in the opposite direction.
Yes. That's right. The drums
were facing away from me..."

Sheee-height!

TW went thru some weird mental periods, didn't he, man [a VERY small inkling of Jaco]... I've heard other stories of his yin-yank personna AW...

"Holey pentangles, Aldridgeman!" >=(
[img]graemlins/thinking.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 07, 2003 02:19 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

In a lot of the old Tony clips, I actually see him wearing Gucci loafers, which have a THIN leather bottom with rubber for grip. They also have a SLIGHT heal for lift...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Five Eight:
Two men say they're Jesus, one of 'em must be wrong. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mr wrong cant be jesus, which makes jesus the right guy. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Sung in Dylan's voice: "If knopfler you, Me2." Game! [img]graemlins/soccer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/soccer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/soccer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/soccer.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 07, 2003 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Five Eight ]</font>

WOW!!! love anything Tony related.

How tall/short was Tony?? How tall are u Peter??

Had Tony been using heavier sticks at that point??

Did he break u in with hearing your rolls??

Was he recording for Blue Note at this time??

U talk about drumset concept from when he was learning??

Did he parlay any Dawson stuff/methods to u??

How evolved was his technique at the time?? Was he employing more matched grip during your time with him??

U ever pick his brain about his ride beat(s)?

Did he use piano with u and touch on form or composition???

Did he smoke weed?

U get into tuning methods?(he seems to be the only guy that made black dots sing)

One of my fave things about Tony was his range of his stroke.How loud was his absolute loudness,and when would he employ that power in a song??(to move a repeated head of a song,or strictly a dynamic tool??)

He was about 30 at the time??Correct??

Was his confidence and swagger offputting?(apparently Miles was responsible for giving him a diva like attitude)

Did u touch on how beautifully he expressed time? Any insight on how he heard melody/harmony/and form,and how he would craft parts??

I love that Tony was soo into drumset. Did he appear to revere the instrument as much as the interviews reported??

Was he starting composition studies at this time??

Did he express any drum wisdom regarding frustrations in weaknesses in other instruments(like sax players trying to impress him by rippin Wayne Shorter.)??

U have diologue about those wonderful Blue Note recordings he was involved in pre-miles,down-time miles,and as a side man???(love that era)


Man i could go on. Tony is my hero. Hope this post doesnt offend..........all my best ...beats

"How tall/short was Tony??"

I was shorter then, so it's
hard for me to put it into
perspective. I kind of rem-
ember him being shorter than
I expected. Could he have
been 5'8"? I'm not sure. He
had long fingers, though.

"How tall are u Peter??"

I'm 5'9" but with shorter-
fingers. It makes a differ-
ence - to me, anyway.

"Had Tony been using heavier sticks at that point??"

Gretsch 2B's, Wooden-Tip.

"Did he break u in with hearing your rolls??"

I don't really understand the
question, though he hated my
rolls and generally, anything
I did, back then.

"Was he recording for Blue Note at this time??"

I don't think so. It was the CBS
years, with the 2nd Lifetime.

"U talk about drumset concept from when he was learning??"

Don't understand you, here. He
was always experimenting, it seemed.

"Did he parlay any Dawson stuff/methods to u??"

None, whatsoever, to my knowledge.

"How evolved was his technique at the time?? Was he employing more matched grip during your time with him??"

To me, it was light-years ahead.
He wanted only matched. I fought
him on this. He made me sorry for
that. Let me tell you.

"U ever pick his brain about his ride beat(s)?"

I didn't even know about the Miles
era, at the time. I never got there.
I wish I did. I had no leverage. I
was just an idiot who revered him.

"Did he use piano with u and touch on form or composition???"

Never. I was back in pre-school.

"Did he smoke weed?"

I never saw him smoke marijuana.

"U get into tuning methods?(he seems to be the only guy that made black dots sing)"

Never. He hit the drums hard! It
sounded loud, however it was tuned.

"One of my fave things about Tony was his range of his stroke.How loud was his absolute loudness,and when would he employ that power in a song??(to move a repeated head of a song,or strictly a dynamic tool??)"

Can't answer that question as his
student but only as a listener.

"He was about 30 at the time??Correct??"

I would figure around there.

"Was his confidence and swagger offputting?(apparently Miles was responsible for giving him a diva like attitude)"

Yes but remember that I was the
eunuch trying to discover myself.

"Did u touch on how beautifully he expressed time? Any insight on how he heard melody/harmony/and form,and how he would craft parts??"

Not at all. It was all physical.

"I love that Tony was soo into drumset. Did he appear to revere the instrument as much as the interviews reported??"

The way he hit them, it didn't seem
that way but I was just a kid.

"Was he starting composition studies at this time??"

Not to my knowledge.

"Did he express any drum wisdom regarding frustrations in weaknesses in other instruments(like sax players trying to impress him by rippin Wayne Shorter.)??"

Never. His drum wisdom seemed
to be try and do what you can't
and as hard as you can, which
reminds me of a story, I'll
tell later.

"U have diologue about those wonderful Blue Note recordings he was involved in pre-miles,down-time miles,and as a side man???(love that era)"

None whatsoever. I wish I did.
That's the Tony I love the most
now, if you can imagine that.

"Man i could go on. Tony is my hero. Hope this post doesnt offend..........all my best ...beats"

I felt like you were CNN or
perhaps another student but
that's OK. I'm not offended.

Tony is a hero for a lot of
drummers, I think and right-
fully so. He left one of the
greatest legacies.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 07, 2003 05:03 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

beats, I'm 5'8" (get it?) and when I met Tony (both of us fully grown) he was eye to eye with me. I think Tony smoked weed because of his Via The Spectrum Road lyrics (. . . it's all a joke, she's got some smoke . . .) In 1969 when Emergency was released people didn't talk like that unless they were 'in the know.' Tony was 24 years old hanging out with Jimi Hendrix and Jack Bruce in revolutionary blow-your-mind times. Draw your own conclusions. [img]cool.gif[/img]

"Jimi, Tone, would either of you like some more electric Kool-Aid?"

Benrand,

I hope you don't mind me linking
to it from here:

http://www.msu.edu/~langmic2/Atavach...king_Glass.mp3

Tony, Tony, Tony!