Time Keeping

I'm not sure why this isn't talked about more since drummers are a big part of this.
How is good time developed?

I can play with a click all day and never faulter, but take it away and put a few musicians with different concepts of time and everything goes to h!$# !
I find playing jazz is easier since my movements are smaller. But in rock when I'm playing with a much more dynamic range things can get a little pushed or pulled.
Time should be internalized so the physical part shouldn't matter. It's just when playing live when the adrenaline kicks in, the time (pulse in my head) can get confused.
Anyone have this problem?
I have a tendency to slow down now because I've heard my self rush so many times in recordings. Now I'm slowing things down ever so slightly.

A bass player friend of mine said you must lose your ego and listen to not just my time but listen to everyone's time and make it work together. His concept was that if you are told to only look at a pack of matches on the table and nothing else you will fail after a short time. Now, if you can look at the pack of matches and ALSO be aware of everything else in the room, it will be a lot easier to keep my eye on the matches. Interesting? No?

So now I'm trying to listen to the whole band and not think about my tempo. It actually helps us play together better and it sounds better even though it may sway a hair.
It's a deep topic.

I try to really listen to the music as if I were not playing. I try to make it sound like a good CD, or a good live performance, one that I would enjoy listening to (NOT ENJOY PLAYING. BUT ENJOY LIASTENING TO. There is a large difference.)

As far as physical aspects not playing a part, I would disagree. Getting smooth and even motions (like the Moeller technique for example) will help keep things even and flowing. Like riding a bike, or walking. The sound of the drums is just one part of a circular motion. When we walk we dont step, halt and step. Same with playing a groove I think. Getting fluent motions can affect one's groove in a BIG way.

The thing that help me the most with my time is not thinking about the notes but conentrating on the SPACE between the notes. Giving the space it's due value and keeping the space even during the criticial moments like bringing the backbeat in on 2 after nailing one after a large fill. I think Dennis's pocket is amazing, I look to him as a role for good groove and time. One of my ALL TIME favorite CD's that is a perfect example of what I'm talking about is [ame="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000DGT6/qid=1071607705/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-6540038-8195240?v=glance&s=music"]Gary Willis's BENT.[/ame]
I just looked on that page and there is a free sample of what I'm talking about. Everyone owes it to themself to stop and listen to the drums on the first sample tune, "Hypmotize". Trust me. Deepest. Pocket. Ever.

As far as the different feeling playing live, I know what you mean. The adrenaline kicks in, you have to play harder maybe.
Don't.
You've done it a million times before, just do it the way you know works. Relax, and play. Let the mics do the work for you. And if you DO dig deeper, don't let it get out of control to where you're just bashing. Turn up your monitor if you have to, just don't bash. Stay in control.

Nice pointers Steve.

I have trouble with time also when the adrenaline & excitement levels increase. The space between notes is also a thing I listen for and I also try to 'think ahead' (ie be ready for that next fill, accent, etc) so I don't get caught out and rush things!

Really being relaxed and ensuring you hit the centre of each head every time also helps me - you get more power out of the instrument that way. Everyone in the group is responsbile for the time & if you approach it that way, the music wins.

I used the excuse that my time gets messed up because the physical aspect of my playing needs to be worked on. Like moving from cymbal to cym, drum to drum. Again, my bass player said if you have good time you will not use the physical as an excuse. You hear it and play it and that's it. So, I agreed on that but only if it's simple enough technically. He basically said if you can't do it physically don't sacrifice the time. Play more simple but don't sacrifice the time.

Some guys that don't play the drums come on my set and play really nice time (whether it's loose or precise). So, it's somewhat debatable as to whether you need all of the physical togetherness just to translate good time. I think they hear it and then play and don't really think about technique but have that inner clock happening.
It's the chicken or the egg question. I tend to try to balance both out because I've worked on alot of technique in the past but that didn't neccessarily give me better time. If I hear the tempo moving, is it my mind or is it the physical?

Dennis played with a big band at Berklee and after the performance he was kind of hiding and shy. He was embarassed because he sped up so much and he aplogized to the guitarist. When they came back to the head they could barely play it. So, it happens to everyone.
I'm not saying Dennis doesn't have good time, but it's something that can be such an enigma.
Time can sound stiff if it's thought about too much but can go out the window if not thought about enough.

I know the drill of having nice time with the click and then on a gig watch the time push and pull.

We don't play in a vacuum and are influenced by those around us. If we focus on complementing the sounds around us and those sounds start to rush or drag, we'll be influenced to follow. In these cases you have to make a choice:

Do I flow with the subtle time change?
OR
Do I stand my ground and say "no this is where the pocket is" even though this may result is an obvious (or not so obvious) clash in tempos between players?

Tris "locksmith" Imboden TOTALLY sped up this past Friday at the Carlos gig. Did it SOUND or FEEL bad? No. It felt great.

I think Weckl has a very interesting POV about speeding up and slowing down: doesn't matter. Well, we ALL know that's not exactly true, but to Dave's point, if the BAND feels better playing fast, then is that bad?

Personally, I'm MOST concerned with time when playing with vocalists because the phrasing of the words and melody are MUCH more affected by speed, both too fast or slow. My method is to REALLY know a phrase in a song, sing it in my head, and keep that as the reference point for tempo.

Just my 2 cents...

Danny

Hey, it's an issue we have to
deal with. I find that watching
Steve Gadd play is the best rem-
edy. He is all quarter-note. I
think you must find those notes
and accent them, not by hitting
them harder but by hitting the
others softer.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Peter, I depend on that method all the time. But the hard part is when you have to play VERY even and sound like a machine. A perfect example is the 16th hihat part on After The Love Is Gone. John Ferraro is also one that does the HEAVY quarter note pulse, and he was saying on that tune, it's SOOO hard because the hihat 16ths need to sound totally EVEN.

But, I agree. The quarter note or other pulse is VERY important and really helps with time.

I know what you mean. In that situation,
I would bring the level of the 16ths
down and the kick and snare up, letting
them be the "nome" for me, if you know
what I mean. Another thing I sometimes
do is pardiddle through the pattern be-
cause it's a more dynamic pattern and
emphasizing the 1/4's, if that makes
sense. Do you know what I mean?

[img]cool.gif[/img]

It's a tough thing to lay the pocket
down but it has to be done.

Sometimes these 16th-note patterns
don't have to be played entirely.
SOMETIMES. When they don't have to
be, the diddles can really help
shape the flow of your strokes.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

I know exactly what you mean Peter. I use diddles between hats and snare all the time to help keep the pluse even. It helps me a lot, especially on slower tunes.

Interesting point Steve about listening to the whole picture when you're playing as if you were simply jaming along to a cd. I try and do that and it does help. It is almost as if you are removing yourself from being a 'drummer' and listening to whats going on from a spectating point of view (if that makes any sense!. Also WATCHING a guitarist, bassist or keyboard player is a good one. You can see where they are placing their beats, not just hearing it.
ALWAYS have the subdivisions going through in your head, be it quavers, semi's or triplets. This, it goes without saying is vital and utterly necessary to have good time. Simply trying feel a quarter note is no good as there may be a lifetime between the beats. Feeling semiquavers (16ths) will give you a far better chance of holding it down.
There are also lots of different ways to work with a metronome that no one seems to mention, like playing it on all 4 quarter notes while playing a simple rock rhythm. Then try putting it on 2&4 with the backbeat, that should be harder to nail. Once you've played for a while with that, then have the click on the 1&3. This should feel very weird, as if it has become slower! Why not then have the click on all the 'ands' and try and keep in time with that? There's SO much more that we can do rather than just have it clanking on all 4 beats.
With regard to having a perfect meter and keeping solid time: One word........... CAMELEON!!
Does it stay in time... NO! Does it speed up like f*ck.... YES! Does it feel great.....YES!!

Good Example Dazzler. Now, is slowing down a bigger no-no and does it feel as good? I think slowing down is worse. Does anyone have an example of a tune that feels good slowing down?
Also, the comment about working for singers is absolutely true. I remember the first time I played with a professional singer and when the last head came in, she turned around and said " you rushed and now I can't sing it " DOH !

Nice post,Dazz. I think that using a metronome with just 1/4 notes is a sad waste,also. I think that a lot of younger players are "scared straight" with the idea that you have to have perfect time. Unfortunately,the result is scared and straight. What about feel? How many times is the drummer the scape goat for tempo changes. I think everyone should have good time. As long as it feels good,who cares? I think it's silly to think that anyone has PERFECT time. I know who I would list as damn close. I just always think of music as a continuous forward motion from beginning to end trying to make it flow as well as I can....

I think it's ok to ebb and flow the tempo but if you hear constant reminders that the tempo is getting weird I think it's cool to look into how to fix it . If it feels good skrew it but if it continues to get worse or too inconsistent then it's time to find ways to maintain it.
My problem is that I know in certain places in a tune I have a tendency to speed up so on the gig I'll compensate and pull back a lttle bit.
Now, when I listen back to that it feels like I'm dragging.

I'm going to listen to Steve's advice on playing with the band by listening to the whole picture.


The reason this is coming up is that I 've been listening to Vinnie and Gadd. I can listen to a whole live concert and never hear a discrepancy in time. The whole concert!
Namely the Soul Cages concert with Vinnie and almost every Gadd concert .
Gadd with Michael McDonald and Eric Clapton and friends. His time is sick on those. They both play a variety of grooves and dynamics too!
I'm kinda brainstorming now, but it seems like everyone trusts each other's time and that's what makes it sound so good in those concerts.

As far as staight ahead or jazz playing is concerned, in my experience other instrumentalists HATE it when a drummer drags and would always prefer them to be on top of the beat if anything.
I recently did a gig with a Rat Pack tribute big band and 3 guys playing Sammy, Dean and Frank. Now I've played these charts hundreds of times with different bands and know them fairly well. But for this gig, the MD frequently came away from the piano, standing directly in front of my kit to conduct. Wow, that's a totally different discipline altogeter - working with an MD. You think you've got the whole time issue under your belt until you have to interpret where a conductor is placing his downbeat, as well as having to nail all the rits and tempo changes at the drop of his hand.
I think that's a skill only the top drummers can master and feel comfortable with. It put a totally different spin on the gig and I felt more pressure playing those charts for that gig than ever before.

I've been trying the method Steve mentions for a while now and it really does help. It makes me play less and respect the space a lot more, thus (I think) improving my time. I've been doing it recently while recording some Christmas arrangements and listening back to the demos I'm actually happy with the time. The tunes are a little crazy with some modulation and time changes so we didn't use a click. Apart from the occasional rush and a slight increase in one of the tempos it turned out ok and still felt good. I'll probably put some clips on my site when the recording's done.
I think another important aspect of playing well with good time is being relaxed and breathing properly. Also, Billy Ward had some good advice on the MD 2000 dvd about videotaping yourself, noting where it feels really good, and learning how to access that state of mind all the time. He uses this idea a lot (mechanics?), utilising tools that help him get comfortable. For me, I can get into a zone here pretty quickly in my studio because there aren't any distractions, but on gigs it's a different story, so when I sit behind my kit with already half-drunk wedding guests everywhere, I'm trying to imagine myself in my studio in my little zone. This works for me and helps me focus on the overall sound.

Dazz, I understand what you mean when you talk about working with an MD. I'm playing in a 45-piece orchestra for a year now and I'm still not comfortable following the MD.

In our rehersals we sight read through about 10 arrangements, and the MD usually keeps 1 or 2 that sound good for the concert. Sight reading drum charts while following an MD is hard (at least for me right now). I'd need a 3rd eye (and sometimes a 3rd ear to be able to lock with that bass part played by a tuba or euphonium 40 feet away!). It's hard because you're not the master of time and dynamics, the MD is. You can't think in terms of metronomic time. Time becomes elastic, i see it like ocean waves. You have to nail backbeats with the MD body movement which may not be where you'd feel it. And 45 musicians can't play without flaming a bit. Plus nailing all those "poco rits", "meno mosso's", tempo and dynamic changes every couple of bars is not easy. I play classical percussion on some of the tunes and I find it easier because you don't play all the time and it' mostly for emphasizing and special effects (although counting those 103 bars before hitting this pppp triangle stroke takes concentration!!)

When I'm on drums it's mostly for Broadway type arrangements and there's lots of swing/big band type sections. Gee, those clasically trained musicians don't swing!. Each time, the MD has to explain how to swing the 8ths or dotted 8ths-sixteenths.

And the charts are so crammed with useless drum parts and fills. When you read them for the 1st time, it's hard to figure out what is a figure what is a fill. I find it easier to play in a big band with only the trumpet lead sheet. You're less contrived and more the band leader.

But I like the challenge and hopefully I'm developing new skills.

So to conclude, the concept of good time keeping is........a concept. Hard to grasp.

I have heard some big-band drummers
talk about how important it is to
think as horn-player would. If you
are with them, you're with it.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Good topic, & good posts by all, esp. Stv, Dazz, & Tombo...Dazz makes a GREAT point in placing or subdividing the click on different permutations or notes within the bar...Tombo's last post was very insightful, as was the hilarious-but-all-to-true comment, "although counting those 103 bars before hitting this pppp triangle stroke takes concentration!!"
From '95 - '98, I played modern country ["80's lite-rock w a twang"], country-swing, & showtunes w this gtrst who was very good player [jazz, rock, funk, & chicken-pickin'], & he was about to leave the group to go on to other things, & had only 1 more gig w us...but he liked to play on top of the beat, & would often "demand" that I do the same, whereas I wanted to stay back a hair as to "widen" the feel of the pocket in contrast to his pushing...he & i would get into slightly "tense" disagreements at times about it...so one day we go back & watch a videotaping of 1 of the shows we'd just done, & lo & behold, he looks at me & tells me, "you're right...we sound like we have "ants in our pants"...all "top-ended" & antsy, anticipatory; herky-jerky, like we're rushing to [or from] a fire...so, the last gig he plays w us [for 10 days straight], he says he's gonna just relax & listen to where I'm laying it & not try to fight me on it, & we really listen to each other, & he remarks that the band feels & sounds the best it ever had in 3 yrs. ...then he quits the band...go fig.... [img]eek.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 17, 2003 11:35 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Tombo, good to hear your experiences too. It must be hell working with 45 'straight' musicians all trying desperately to swing! I bet most of them wouldn't swing even if you hung them by their necks!!
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Fuse, that's also very true about finding a common ground with a bassist and one that can only be learnt through LOTS of playing. I have to agree that when I'm playing jazz with a really strong bassist who like to play on top of the beat, I generally like to sit back and let him do a lot of the 'work' as far as the time is concerned. By that I don't mean that my role is diminished, but like you said, if I try hard to state the time then it will end up sounding rushed, so I play to his pulse and conciously try to relax and not push so much.
All good stuff though and a VERY interesting and important topic... Now isn't this more worthwhile than RLRL foot LRLR nose... double bass ting RLLR nose?!!
eh guys.....? guys.....? GUYS???!?!?!

[img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/music.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Yeah...only, my nose hurts [& now makes a "ting" sound when i doth smacketh it]....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 17, 2003 11:39 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I just got Steve Smith Part I (a classic), and he talks about time quite a bit. He said he spent so much time practicing technique that his time was not fully developed. When he was eighteen or nineteen he went to camp where Peter Erskine taught, and that turned him around.

He got into counting sixteenths while playing. Literally singing 1 e and a, etc. Because once you have that internalized (the hardest part), it just becomes a problem of playing it on the drums physically.

He also talked about playing slow Journey ballads. He practiced by playing a samba pattern with the feet, and two and four on the snare at a slow tempo. He would practice fills around the samba pattern as well. I guess that got him used to feeling the sixteenth notes.

It's interesting, because when you sing sixteenth notes, it becomes hard to NOT play in time.

Hey thanks for the feedback. I think this is a very important topic to continue to talk about. I've never really had to follow conductors too much since college, so I'm sure that's a real trip on the psyche !

I just wanted to say I found a quote from John "Jabo" Starks from an old modern drummer from Sept. 1999 that was reprinted in Jan. 2004's edition. He says, " We're human. So don't try to take the human factor out of it. Sure, musicians and drummers may vary the tempo a little. But if you're locked in with the rest of the rhythm section, who's going to know? Tell us where you want the time, and we'll play it there. We may very the tempo, but it's going to feel good."

Words of wisdom from one of James Brown's drummers. You can't go wrong with that advice.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 29, 2003 01:51 AM: Message edited by: blake1 ]</font>

Kenwood Dennard also said something in print once like "the time will always feel better if you act like you're playing with a click rather than actually playing with one." Interesting. I have this problem with time lately where I just wanna hear everything really laid back. It's a disease! It's so bad that I'll even listen to the heavies and think "man, why is he so on top?" Anyway, this is a timely thread because I find myself second-guessing my time a lot.

Recording yourself is a good way to check the group's time. It's been real instructive for me to check out the start and ending tempos for each song.

Other than concentrating on the subdivisions, there's Weckl's approach to let the motion of your limbs dictate the tempo. He uses that "walk in the park" analogy where if you constantly move your limbs the same way, you'll find that the tempo remains rather constant.

I think another helpful thing for nailing the tempo is to have the tune counted off at the right tempo in the first place. If the tempo doesn't groove at the start, it's hard to get the group to lock in.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Nikk:
Kenwood Dennard also said something in print once like "the time will always feel better if you act like you're playing with a click rather than actually playing with one." Interesting. I have this problem with time lately where I just wanna hear everything really laid back. It's a disease! It's so bad that I'll even listen to the heavies and think "man, why is he so on top?" Anyway, this is a timely thread because I find myself second-guessing my time a lot.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have the same problem as yours, I don't know if you're from the US, but here in Denmark, having that desease is a very bad thing [img]frown.gif[/img]

Well, i've grown up with Bill Maxwell as one of my major influences on time keeping in contemporary rock/pop music, and i see him as very Laid back "lazy" type studio drummer. I don't see it as a desease, i just think you need to musically agree with the band that we're playing with a Laid back "lazy" time'n feel, especially in Studio sessions. Playing on the top in Studio is something that makes the product to "busy" listening too as a listener.

Klemme,

I just saw Bill Maxwell a few weeks ago at the spud in LA. He was playing with Abraham Laboriel and Greg Mathieson. His timing is GREAT! I used to study with him several years ago.

Andy

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:
Klemme,

I just saw Bill Maxwell a few weeks ago at the spud in LA. He was playing with Abraham Laboriel and Greg Mathieson. His timing is GREAT! I used to study with him several years ago.

Andy

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You studied with Bill Maxwell?!?!! oh my...

I hear the music of Koinonia every day, him and Abe are just wonderfull on those records - BTW anyone have the live track "celebration" on their computer?! Alex Acuna held a clinic in Copenhagen where he mentioned Bill Maxwell ,but nobody knew him - he needs to get on Tour instead of hanging around in LA!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Well sorry for the off topic!

...Bill is amazing! It's his approach to time and the groove that first caught my attention. He plays with a great command of the pocket and always musical! His first album as producer took a grammy. He invited me to a session to hear him record with Abe and Alex years ago...very impressive!

originally posted by: blake1

Quote:

---

I can play with a click all day and never faulter, but take it away and put a few musicians with different concepts of time and everything goes to h!$# !
I find playing jazz is easier since my movements are smaller. But in rock when I'm playing with a much more dynamic range things can get a little pushed or pulled.
Time should be internalized so the physical part shouldn't matter. It's just when playing live when the adrenaline kicks in, the time (pulse in my head) can get confused.
Anyone have this problem?
I have a tendency to slow down now because I've heard my self rush so many times in recordings. Now I'm slowing things down ever so slightly.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i thought i was the only one having problems w/ it... i really like what Steve said about "NOT enjoying playing it but ENJOY listening to it"... but what about playing live and i dont hear my self anymore too loud mixes (when no monitor is available)?.. sound techs here are not as brilliant as yours....

another problem i have keeping time, when a fellow musician speeds up (worse the Bass player or even vocalists)... im not saying i have perfect time and putting the blame on them.... sorry but it happens..

originally posted by: Andy Vermiglio

Quote:

---

We don't play in a vacuum and are influenced by those around us. If we focus on complementing the sounds around us and those sounds start to rush or drag, we'll be influenced to follow. In these cases you have to make a choice:

Do I flow with the subtle time change?
OR
Do I stand my ground and say "no this is where the pocket is" even though this may result is an obvious (or not so obvious) clash in tempos between players?

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and i choose to go w/ the changes... the result... tadaaaa!!

originally posted by: sashal3

Quote:

---

What about feel? How many times is the drummer the scape goat for tempo changes. I think everyone should have good time.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]

just wanting to vent my own aaaarrrrgggghhh expiriences!!! [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

Blake1 or whoever...

I have struggled w/ the same problem about being able to nail a click and then not being able to play w/ certain musicians and hold it down. Here's what I've figured out about that. There are basically two approaches to playing w/ other musicians. Either you come from a REACTIVE standpoint or a PROACTIVE standpoint. My problem when I was struggling with this problem alot was that I was TOO 'reactive.' Playing w/ a click all the time in your practice routine can turn you into a 'too-reactive' player by default. You are relying on something else (in this case the click) for your timing source. It is very important to be able to play w/ a click, but, it's also just as important, if not more important, to be able to play IN TIME without one. So, if you are playing w/ a band you (being the drummer) have to be equal parts proactive and reactive. If you are playing w/ people that have bad time (which I have had to do quite a bit) you absolutely HAVE to be more PROACTIVE. The standpoint that I like to look at is. I try to play everything from the point of view of being able to play perfectly in time and changing/loosening up the feel if that's what is called for. If you are playing out of time by default that's not necessarily a good thing. Try to come from the standpoint of KNOWING where the time is really at and base everything off of that.

One example with me is: I have this bass player that I've played w/ since I first started playing. He has naturally perfect time and I mean PERFECT time. The nature of my learning and progression was playing time w/ a click..and if it wasn't w/ a click it was with this bass player. So, this bass player was pulling me along, he was my timing source and he and I could and can play perfect time together. But, as I started to play w/ other people it took me a couple of years to figure WHY I couldn't play in time w/ other musicians...everything was rushing, dragging, and basically doing whatever it wanted--I had no control over the time whatsoever. I had a great teacher that explained to me that my playing was almost TOO reactive and not enough proactive. I respond to all the little subdivisions that I might hear the bass player, or guitar player do within the groove and it pushed and pulled me EVERYWHERE! So, I put 2 and 2 together and figured out that when I am playing w/ people whose time is weak, I need to be a little more proactive and take the initiative to dictate where the time is at. Now, if you find that this is your problem and you try to take a more proactive focus---Please do not forget about still being a reactive player as well.

So...with that all out of the way, here are a few things that have helped my timing alot:

1)First and foremost: Playing along w/ CDs, playing along w/ a click, etc. REPETITION (play one groove at one tempo for long periods of time)

2)Dane Clark (Mellencamp/Studio drummer) has his students do an exercise w/ straight-eighths rock grooves. Basically, play quarters w/ your left foot on the hihat-but, also play the straight-eighths w/ your R.H. on the hi-hat as well. The thing you should listen for is making sure that there aren't any open hihat sounds...it will REALLY get you playing your left foot exactly on the quarter note..it sounds like a weird exercise, but, try it, I guarantee it'll mess with you. When you can do it cleanly w/ quarters on the left foot hi-hat, try it w/ 8ths on the LFHH.

3)Another thing that Dane Clark has really busted me on in lessons is actually playing 'Straight-Eighths' grooves. So many drummers play a 'bucks' like pattern (accent/tap) on the hihat without even thinking about it. When you play a straight-eighths groove try to do it w/ equal volume for each eighth note LOUDLY for rock stuff. A good example of how this can affect a groove is Kenny Aronoff on Michelle Branch's "Everywhere" Listen to the pre-chorus. Kenny lays down straight-eighths there like nobody's business and it totally makes the song in my opinion. Anyway, if you get used to doing this, it helps out your timing alot for Rock stuff. You monitor your Right Hand when doing this and things will fall into place.

4)Here's one method that I've found to be VERY helpful for being proactive first and reactive second if that's your problem. Set the click to 100bpm or so--(quarter notes ONLY please.) The exercise is just 3 measures of SIMPLE 4/4 rock *bass drum on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4, straight-eighths on the hihat* and then 1 measure of 15/16. So it's a just a 4 measure pattern...the last measure you are just cutting the 'a' of 4. Okay this is a good exercise because for the second cycle the pattern the click will be on the 'e's. The third cycle, the click will be on the 'and's. The fourth cycle of the groove, the click will be on the 'a's. Then it starts itself back right on the quarter note. This exercise helps you become PROACTIVE because you have to push the time and be confident with KNOWING exactly where the time is for the click to fall in the right place when you go through the whole cycle. After you have achieved this ability, the next step is to set the click to half notes at 100bpm (or quarters at 50bpm same thing basically). There are not as many clicks there for you to rely on w/ the half notes so you have to be confident w/ where the time is at or you will fall flat on your face. The next step is to set the click to whole notes at 100bpm. (One way to do this is just turn everything off except for the loud '1' that your metronome will give you..like on a Dr. Beat or a Tama Rhythm Watch for example). If you can do this...your timing with straight rock beat should be pretty solid. If it's not...you have a free pass to punch me in the face 6 times.

Anyway, sorry for this extremely long post, but, please let me know if this works for anybody on here. And I am looking for some more tips as well...I like all the ones that are on here so far.

Such an awesome topic. As the drumset is the centerpiece of time.

I'm comfy about my time at present. I never used 2 be. Ive had my confidence supremely tested when i was 'greener' with deveoping good time after 'leaving the basement/shed' and learning to play with other people in a live/rehearsal/studio setting. Really it began when i (as my first teacher got me into the best habit of doing)got 2 hear myself with my first bands in high school, live, and the studio. It revealed itself that i had a habit of rushing fills (before and after setting up a part, and certain phrasings). I was so shocked and humbled that i really started to obssess about it. So from that point on until now heres what ive come up with, and some concepts ive developed for myself; many that are mentioned by most of you too, to help my time:

When i first started, my shedding consisted of lesson work, but most of the time was spent playing along with records (mainly-by genre-,new wave of the 80's(really early electronica), jazz, pop, punk rock, some selected funk, and hip hop of the day, and John Williams soundtrack music(i played Tympani/Snare in concert band in high school). My father used 2 be a radio DJ, so i had an enourmous record collection 2 draw from. All i wanted to do was drum. I never even conceptualized clearly that my main role was to frame the time/feel/and pulse. Ahhh Teen-agerisms.

Then after forming bands and trying 2 operate as one(by way of live/studio/rehearsal playing)and hearing and seeing results by way of taping audio and video, i began to develop better time.

In my ongoing carreer ive found that:

-guitarists generally have great time, as do MC's with skills. Bassists ive worked with, until recently, have not so good time. Same as classically trained pianists,and vocalists, awful awful time. Conducters think they have good time, but they're full of shit. Most creative jazz instrumentalists express thier time 'elastically', but ive found that they do know good metronomic time. And they like to, as previously expressed, play on top of the beat.

-being in a band with the same people for many years WILL help everyones time.

-capturing live off the floor drum takes with everyone hearing the click, or even just me with the click reference, never seems to work. Even though fluctuations(which is why i hate this method of recording) with the other instruments can be fixed with a dope Protools engineer, this method for, purely political reasons, is unacceptable to me. which brings me to..........

-drummers ARE NOT the sole bearer of time keeping. I feel that we are the 'peace officers of time keeping' within a band. Everyone must be accountable for good time. I want to be the one on the lookout if the time is strange and work together to fix the issue intead of having a philisophical discourse about who is to blame, if other players feel that im the solo guide to the time. If that unnacceptable to someone in any band ive been involved with then i will inflict 'FURIOUS ANGAH!!' on them. I worked WAY TOO DAMN LONG to develop my time, i can only expect the same respect afforded to me as a drummer , if other instrumentalists practice to achieve decent time keeping skills.

-metronomes= NO! Drum machines=YEAH! My parents gave me a Alesis drum machine, circa-'87, and i would play with the preset patterns. I still have the damn thing and at present: i program an 12 bar loop, quantized to 16th note values. The first 8 bars consist of= a ride cym. bell playin 1/4 notes, tambourines playing 8th notes, closed HH playing 16th's, and a triangle playing the upbeats. I start warming up/ shedding/playing time/learning new shit at 70 BPM's and increase the tempos whenever i feel like it,usually up to 205 BPMs. There is a swing function that's preset straight(on the view screen it says 50% value). But i ALWAYS bump the swing to 54% or 56%. This machine travels with me 2 the studio and this is my click reference for what ever project im recording. Depending on the song i may mix the individual click voicings higher. Eg:if we were aiming for an AC/DC type feel, then i mix my ride click the most predominate reference with the Tambourine voice just slighly quieter. every thing else is still heard but its more 'felt'.

-as a side bar to that a good recordist friend of mine asked if i wanted to try having the guitar take recorded first to my click reference/programming concept. Then try a drum take to the guitar part w.out the click in my cans. Well to my suprise i really really enjoyed that approach 2 layin down tracks, as it seemed to retain a very live feel.

-I utilize a mental 'encyclopedia' or a time/feel blueprint of drummers who i feel express time/feel in 4 different ways:

1)behind the 1/4 note- guys i feel that play this way would be Bonham, Roach, Gadd, Tommy Lee, Chad Smith, Klook, Smitty, Brain.......

2)dead center of a 1/4 note pulse(but not quite, if that makes any sense!!)- Chambers, Vinnie, Virg, Weckl, Smith, Erskine, Beauford,Carey, Jeremy Dillon, Theodore, both the Blade brothers,'Tain, Questlove,Phil Gould, my teacher Ray Garroway........i personally strive/believe that this expression is optimum thing i reach for.

3)ahead or pushing the 1/4 note-Tony, Copeland, Mitchell, Moon, Lombardo........

4)all the above- guys like Vinnie and errr, uh , ummmm well just Vinnie [img]wink.gif[/img]

I use this 'rolodex' to kind of police myself if im having a shitty drum day, or if im figuring out drum parts with my bands.

-i enjoy talking about concepts of instrument's parts within a song with the other instrumentalists. Unfortunately drummers seem 2 be the only semblence of intelligence and sensitivity about such pursuits.

-like Billy Ward said:'take mental snap shots of your limbs and movements when things feel good'. That along with a mirror beside me to reference movement has really immensley(sic) helped on SOOo many levels.

So sorry about the long windedness. I got some tips from your approaches and it can only help. Maybe u may see something here also.

.............peace.............beats

nice post beats [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] ....