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Hey guys (and girls?)
I know I don't post too often, though read alomst all. Just curious to see what reaction/thoughts would be off this lil diddy since I got it up on the net. Comping off a well known bass groove... have at it.
The Track
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 24, 2004 02:39 AM: Message edited by: JosiahM ]</font>
Hey Josiah, wassup!
Thanks for posting. I'd want to know your own opinion. Are you satisfied with your groove, pocket and time? Are you self-conscious of where you may be dragging/rushing? (We all rush&drag at one point or the other BTW)
I don't know what was your original intent in Posting so I'll go out on a limb here. Pocket playing is a workable Art isn't it. It's been said so many times before, worth repeating here. Vinnie worked on his and mentioned somewhere how he learned from Jeff Porcaro's. He worked on making his feel good. What he's recently done with Chaka Khan (even before that with Sting) definitely shows his hard work paid off. So if a guy like Vinnie took time to work on it, and I believe that was in the Post-Zappa years, so should we. For me at times the greatest challenge is to bring a comfort zone in simplicity. I listen to Garibaldi lay it down with Tower of Power, I even understand, let's say, a simple sticking he does. Then I play it and it just does NOT sound and feel as comfy as he. At times the flow gets obstructed or I may lack the drive, the extra zest. So I listen, listen and listen in an attempt to emulate his feel, and even sing the grooves out loud. In a drum emulating kinda way. With time, I know my groove and pocket did improve, still a way to go though.
Josiah,
This is quoted from you at musicianforums
" Why is that? The time is solid except for some minor rough spots, the chops are clean even in the most complicated of things, my doubles are sweet. The ghost notes are awesome.. every single rimshot is nearly identical in sound and power for the backbeats, a feat most revered by drummers. My dynamic levels are awesome... maintaining a nice low 8th note hi-hat and only spiked by specific accents while playing solid rimshots with mass ghost notes intermixed inbetween. "
Seriously man, good attempt on the recording, but without meaning to sound rude, your playing just doesn't quite match your ego yet. And you can't take criticism at all. I've seen you disagree with everyone that dares to suggest something isn't right. In a nutshell you're basically saying 'I am great, I am awesome, and undoubtedly when I've played as long as vinnie, I'll be right up there with him'. Lol, get a grip. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. [img]smile.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 26, 2004 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>
I am guessing you are putting that on here to get critiqued and have us point out things to work on so here goes. First off i have been (haha, and probably still are!) where you are at. Where you are at, in my opinion, is as follows. It sounds like you have worked on getting your hands and feet together. You sound as if you are working on some modulation. You have played around with takin' it out and bringin it back into the groove. Good stuff.
This is where i would suggest work. In everyone's playing, i believe, we develope new ideas but then before we move on we need to really put them under the microscope. Work all the tempos, all the feels, all the subdivisions being played or just being felt. Find ways to milk that puppy for all it is worth. Really it is like a painting. You don't just outline what you are going to paint but then not fill it in. You go back and color in the parts. Then you go back and establish nuance, add the little things that make it subtle yet striking. I do the same thing in my playing.
For just playing a simple 16th note groove on the hi hat, say, with 1 & 3 on the bass, 2 & 4 on the snare. I would record it with a 16 note click. See where i fall in relation to that. Then listen to the same groove with the 16th note click, but then see where i fall with the 8ths, quarters. So far as to how my feel is on the "big time" level, as in 2 or 4 bars at a time. What is the feel, where is it not being brought across right, or to my liking. I then record the same groove, this time to a 8th click and do the same process, at the way down to a whole note click every other measure. Then just play with the click, and then listen back without it, or don't play with it at all. See how the "live" sound is without the digital reference. Experiment with different nuance/feels in the same "big" feel. Really, all that for a simple groove that when i first started out, i thought was "below me". Wrong!!! Being that critical really pays off when you want to deal with reality and how good you really are. It is the ego check of the century, that is if you really are ready for it. Sometimes i am just not in a mental state to hear my mistakes, as in i just don't hear them. I may be so impressed that i KIND OF pulled something off, i let some things go, although if it were some other drummer, i would have tons of things to point out. Point being, remove yourself from your playing, get real with it. If it were your life-long "drum rival" how would you rate it, what would impress you, what would make you think he needs more work. Do that to yourself now. Sometimes just go back to something you find easy, record it, scrutinize it.
The first gig i ever did was a studio gig. I had been a "live show-off" guy, bustin' chops and all that. Man... that gig put in me in not only MY place, but other places too, let me tell you. I wasn't ready for that musical microscope. My playing wasn't, neither was my ego. Now i pretend that i am the most anal-retentive producer in the world when listening to my playing. At least i am semi-prepared for my next ego blow, so i think.
I was just posting it to hear what people have to say.. I've paid for enough crtique on my playing (my loan letters let me know about it) that I know what and how to work on it..
I just like hearing other peoples playing and figured others might liek to hear mine, see what various ideas and styles etc.. I enjoy listening to what peopel post on this forum and others, be it good or bad.. everyone most always has something interesting to bring to the table.
I appreciate the comments though.. again not looking for one thing or the other. Though since Rudy has the sense to slam me.. we won't talk about why he was IP banned from another drummer forum.
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] Peace!
This JosiahM is a complete joke. Anybody who says anything negative about his playing is banned from the musicianforums website. Immature and pathetic considering these people are only giving you feedback that will help you improve.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why not? Go ahead Josiah. Tell everyone why I was banned from that forum. Because the moderator there cheated in a drum competition, there was proof of it. Because he deletes threads all over the place for no good reason. Because everyone bitches about everyone there, etc, etc, and ego's are way too inflated. The best thing that ever happened to me was to be banned fom that complete joke of a forum. But there you go again josiah, being defensive, when several people have given you constructive criticism, not least 'turtleface' at musicianforums who was spot on with what he observed.Quote:
Originally posted by JosiahM:
Though since Rudy has the sense to slam me.. we won't talk about why he was IP banned from another drummer forum.
You've got talent, but it's not completely harnessed yet. We've all got talent and we're all still learning. Not one drummer at HOD would dare to say things like 'my rolls are awesome' and there are some incredible players here, as you know. A million dollars could buy you lessons with the greatest drummers and music schools in the world, but it still wouldn't buy you humility. That's something you have to learn yourself. Remember this too. There are lots of great drummers who don't get much work if their attitude sucks. Nobody wants to hire them. It's not just drumming skills we need to learn.
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Not bad playing, I like the sound of your drums. How were they recorded?
As for the groove, you don't really let anything settle and change from bar to bar. I think that you could be a lot more accurate with your placements as the timing is a little shaky in places. The very first 16th note BD hit you play is out. Remember: Everything is timekeeping!! - where have we heard that before?!
Also there is an over use of the Gadd lick and the Blushda! Did you put that in for our benefit I wonder?! Nice to hear you play though, I just think you could concentrate on the GROOVE and TIMING rather than what licks you can get in.
Cheers for posting. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
..... as for blasting on other forums, well I wouldn't know about that. I looked at the musicianforims you lot spoke about. Is there any particular one you visit/post on so I can check it out too?
If Rudy's post was correct and you actually DID write that critique of yourself then all I can say is humility and modesty go a long way in this business. More than you'll ever know Josia and especially as that demo doesn't warrant such high accolades... especially from yourself, who actually played it!!
[img]smile.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>
My advice is lock in the kick with the bass player and read Dazz's post 20 more times. [img]smile.gif[/img]
In my opinion, you should try to groove to the bass line moreover anything else you are doing. Playing over the bar line only makes sense if it is in context to what you are playing to. As Dereck points out, the kick MUST match what the bass line is doing, and in this case, the bass line is a pretty basic repetition, so find it and lay into it! Lastly, don't be afraid to go to your ride. This will open up the groove.
When you get the chance, just try to lay the most basic 4/4 groove over that same bass line and play it the whole way through without filling. Do this a few time and you will begin to formulate a theme instead of just placing random ideas over what is a predictable groove. Less is more, so if you are going to modulate or fill use it wisely and tactfully...
It's always tough to use
something like this to cue
off of.
#1. The length is more than
needed to demonstrate groove.
#2. The length is such that
the temptation for you to run
off on other ideas is great.
It sounds fine, except for a
part that kind of opened up a
bit much. It's cool to play to
these comps.
Nice feel. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[img]cool.gif[/img]
I think you have some nice ideas but they're not fluent or in the pocket.....that only comes from having a deeper understanding of time (as everyone else has said) and that only comes with lots of practice with a click...after all, it has perfect time and no human does. I think if I were you I'd isolate what you feel are the cool parts - grooves or fills - start at a slow tempo and loop your ideas, and really get to know how it feels when it's all locked nicely in time.
Hey thanks again to the comments..
I really just play to have fun, I greatly understand the whole time thing. But as well, I'm not interested in being a machine either so I just let it flow more then concetrate on the time it self. Though of course, time can always improve..
Now for Dazz.. I did through the Blushda lick in there.. it's in there 2 times (2 isn't overuse is it?) however the gadd lick.. I'm completelly at odds with what you are refearing too. Of course nothing is really original now a days so I'm sure, esspecially considering Gadd's heavy usage of "rudimental" playing..
As to how the drums were recorded, simply just a SM57 room mic'd on axis to the kit from a few feet away.. though I own more then enough mics to mic the kit fully, I lack the mixer. It's by far not a "demo" of my skills, but just having some fun playing.
The reason for not goign to the ride was.. there was non, I only used Snare, Kick and a 10" tom and hats.
Ok, I take your points about the licks Josiah, but the point still stands: why break up a groove at the expense of 'chucking in' a lick for the sake of it? What worries me was when you said:
"But as well, I'm not interested in being a machine either so I just let it flow more then concetrate on the time it self."
You MUST understand that for us drummers, having good time is everything. Why do you think Gadd gets booked for session when all he plays is 2&4 on the snare and 1&3 on the bass drum? Coz his time is stupid and his feel is incredible. People want to play with a drummer who cares about the music, time and feeling that he/she is creating.
This post isn't meant to be an attack in any way Josiah, but advice which you are free to ignore. The point is this: When you are away from your bedroom and playing to bass lines, who do you play with? Who do you want to play with and do you think that people would like or more importantly, love to play with you? All this should go through your head as you practice these grooves... if you genuinly care about music.
As for your most humble of posts of the other message board (which you chose to ignore when I asked you about it above [img]wink.gif[/img] ) There is absolutlely NO NEED for such an arrogant self cririque. When has The Erskoman, Gary H or even Steve Holmes ever come on this board and 'bigged themselves up'? Telling the whole world that:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">is in my humble opinion, a cause for concern mate!!Quote:
my doubles are sweet. The ghost notes are awesome.. every single rimshot is nearly identical in sound and power for the backbeats, a feat most revered by drummers. My dynamic levels are awesome...
Good luck.... [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 30, 2004 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>
Rudy,
I listened to your stuff and frankly it was ok, although I just came to this thread of the back of listening to Shawn40 (Roger B) playing with Chic Hot and Etienne Mpabbe and it was a bit like changing conversations from Einstein to Fred Flinstone.
What causes me more concern however, is the nature and tone of this thread. I haven't seen this before at HOD and Rudy, if you envoke this kind of reaction from people....maybe you're at the wrong forum.
Apologies Rudy...I was refering to JosiahM in my post and not you.
Apologies Rudy....I was refering to JosiahM in my post and not you.
Gary
Dazzler..
first off.. I'd like to point out the quote.. of "my doubles are sweet. The ghost notes are awesome.. every single rimshot is nearly identical in sound and power for the backbeats, a feat most revered by drummers. My dynamic levels are awesome..."
Was not mine own.. I simply rephrased what a friend of mine in nashville had mentioned about the particular track. Granted, I said it.. but it was still what another persons words were.
Wich.. honestly brings up this whole "humality" thing.. I almost want to say.. screw that. If vinnie came out and said "I'm a bad mo fo drummer, and few peopel in the world could touch me."
Would that be humble? Yes it would. Humality is knowing what is and not adding on to it.. humility is not playing down what may nesseicarily be true.
Anyway that said..
It seems.. a lot of times.. there is this huge comparison to Gadd, Vinnie etc..
What if, I don't want to play like Gadd, be famous like Vinnie or even record as much?
Cause I dont. It doesnt' appeal to me, so I choose not to spend 4 horus a day slamming away at 2&4 against a click. I could, but I don't. I think people, not nessicarily you, need to step away from the "time is everything.. just look at *name*". Some of us play to have fun.. I'll never have time like Gadd because I made a descision not too. Take that into account.
I like hearing peoples ideas and such, I know that pretty much anything I hear form non upper echelon pros is goign to be pale in comparison, so I simply don't bother including that view point.
You ask what I want to do.. I want to have fun playing, as it is.. I've still managed to not have a normal job for quite a few years now by just playing drums. Do I make 250G a year.. not even.. but I have fun, and that's what counts.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 01, 2004 04:29 AM: Message edited by: JosiahM ]</font>
this guy is hilarious!
He's a very sad chap....
And why would that be?
Sad.. I think not.. I just booked yet another flight to Central america for a surf trip. What will you be doing for those 45 some odd days in Dec-Jan.. working would be my guess. Now that is sad.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 01, 2004 07:35 AM: Message edited by: JosiahM ]</font>
Everything you say is just providing this forum with more hilarious fodder for proving our point.
Josiah, you said somewhere that you've paid a fair bit of money getting schooled at P.I.T or one of those music schools. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I suspect you did that to be a well educated, well rounded professional drummer, in order to be hired for record dates, shows, tours, etc. I haven't been to a music college, but I would have thought places like P.I.T and Berklee would not only instill how utterly important time keeping is, but teach you things that someone only playing for fun and who doesn't want to be the next vinnie or gadd might find too overwhelming, too much effort. Yet you say it's all for fun and you don't care to be like them, even though you compare yourself to vinnie with almost every sentence. Nice backpeddling! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Anyway, here's some more of your comedy gold:
" There's some cool licks I threw in that track that have been throwin people I've talked to who have heard it. Gotta love the displacemet and modulations."
" Wich one? Thats a rather vague statement considering the sheer amount of displacement, modulations and artificial groupings."
" $700 in a day is nothing, I've made $1,800 in a day playing drums. You know what the difference is.. your full of talk, and can't even get a single mp3 up for anyone to hear you. ON the other hand, I have CD's on my shelf with playing and have posted many times. Regaurdless of what you have to say.. I do get hired, your comments are invalid.. as I pointed out above. You have no idea what you are talking about."
"By the way at 1:07... that fill doe snot fall apart as you so would like to say. 1 stick click occured, in to perfect modulated time. Hey guess what.. ever heard of a guy named Billy Cobham? Yea.. I got quite a few albums with him.. there's stick clicks everwhere. He's got more then 4 times the number of years as me. Hmmmmmmm...... "
Hi Josiah... and how are you today?!
Thanks for your reply. Ok, let me say that regarding your most humble (remember that word Josiah - I'll come back to it later) of self critiques. I managed to track down the forum it was posted on and read it in context. It was not caveated in any way by "a friend of mine in Nashville said of my playing on this track", you simply posted it yourself. This being the case, as non of us are Uri Geller, we couldn't possibly know that and took it at face value, as coming from you and your own fair hand.
Secondly, regarding your second point. If I may quote you:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can I point you to our good friend, The Merrian Webster dictionary?Quote:
Wich.. honestly brings up this whole "humality" thing.. I almost want to say.. screw that. If vinnie came out and said "I'm a bad mo fo drummer, and few peopel in the world could touch me."
Would that be humble? Yes it would. Humality is knowing what is and not adding on to it.. humility is not playing down what may nesseicarily be true.
One entry found for humility.
Main Entry: hu?mil?i?ty
Pronunciation: hy?-'mi-l&-tE, y?-
Function: noun
: the quality or state of being humble
Aha.... so now we're getting somewhere!
Lets take this a step further Josiah shall we?
Acording to our pal Mr Webster, let's see what he throws up for the word humble:
Main Entry: 1hum?ble
Pronunciation: 'h&m-b&l also chiefly Southern '&m-
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): hum?bler /-b(&-)l&r/; hum?blest /-b(&-)l&st/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin humilis low, humble, from humus earth; akin to Greek chthOn earth, chamai on the ground
1 : not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive
2 : reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission <a humble apology>
3 a : ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : INSIGNIFICANT, UNPRETENTIOUS b : not costly or luxurious <a humble contraption>
Did you see point 1? I put it in bold for you to make it clear.
Listen...... you are absolutely correct when you say that you simply want to drum for fun and all the very best of luck to you. But what you fail to realise is that on this forum your are amongst the most esteemed of company. We are lucky to have such a site where not only drummers, both professional and non-professional can unite and discuss, but are also visited by our favourite players too.
Can't you see that no matter what stage you want to take your playing to - you have made it clear that you are happy to stay in your bedroom and amuse yourself (by drumming I hope), that announcing what money you are earning and giving such outlandish self critiques is only going cause ill feeling towards you.
We all and I hope I speak for the majority here, welcome your posts and listening to you play, but drumming aside Josiah, being a humble and
modest person will take you far and will endear people to you. This has nothing to do with drumming or music at all, but journeying through life in general.
I wish you luck.
[img]smile.gif[/img]
Josiah, I actually agree with you that comparing everyone to Vinnie, Weckl, Dennis, Virg etc etc is silly, especially when it comes to players who are new to our ears.
However, I remember having a conversation on this very board about you and your lack of humility. Frankly, it's embarassing.
If you're making a great living playing drums, congratulations as that is no easy feat. However, your playing will always speak for itself one way or another and as no one here will ever hire you (we're a bunch of drummers obviously) we have only your playing and your words to "judge" you by.
I hope you hang around more and continue to post, but I also think you are being given some wise advice in (some of) these posts (e.g. Dazz's) and you would do well to read them over a few times.
This guys is funny!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]
by the way... is this you playing solo??
www.drummerworld.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=121
Wow, it's like JERRY SPRINGER up in here! LOL
There have been MANY excellent points made here, so I will not repeat them all, but I wanted to say that the track was good and pretty tight in places. I dug all the hi-hat & ghost note work - quite nice. I think the track could have used some "awesome dynamics" though [img]wink.gif[/img]
great post dazzler.
woops....didnt know there were 2 pages....i meant the post about the dictionary quotes....
Josiah, you may want to go to the end of the 1st page to read my reply.
[img]graemlins/chat.gif[/img]
I'm still trying to figure how you is gonna find the surf in Central America.....like where's the ocean dude. I could be wrong but I smell the whif of male cow poo.....and yes I will be working but that's ok cos I like it.