Moeller

This is about adjusting my grip and stroke. I was watching the jim chapin clip with dom famularo about moeller. I've always kind of had that whipping motion, but I realised from watching that clp something I've been doing wrong, at least it seems that it's wrong. I should explain my grip. The stick sits in the first groove of my index finger with my thumb opposite to the left, so the stick is pinched in between, with the palm of my hand facing straight down. So that if I take the remaining fingers away, the stick pivots with thumb and index.
However, I haven't been allowing the index finger any freedom. I've been holding onto the stick with thumb and index, but not tightly either. Jim chapin shows how the stick is held from the back of the hand, with the index finger not really holding onto the stick, but moving freely away from it on the downstroke. I've tried this on gigs recently, and it seems to have really improved my time, whereas before, fills could be a little rushed, even tempo didn't seem to sit as relaxed. On my downstroke, I allow the index finger to come away while supporting the stick from the back 3 fingers with the thumb remaining in contact too, and then I catch it back in the first groove of my finger after the stroke. Am I doing this right, and does everyone else do this? Or does anyone else also hold onto the stick? I'm just trying to get the best technique possible so that every single stroke I make is as perfectly in time as possible, which is the hardest damn thing to achieve. I think I have pretty good time overall, but I hate listening to variations in it, which I liken to walking down the line in the middle of a road and sort of drunkenly veering slightly left and right of it, if you see what I mean. Example of before grip: I would go for a crash, or a fill and a crash, and the next snare beat would come in fractionally too early. Now it seems to be much more in time, though I need to record myself to confirm if it is.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

Rudy,

My take on the Moeller method (and there are a number of variations) is that the index finger touches the stick during the stroke. The index finger is used only as a guide and does not wrap around the stick. This is the way Weckl teaches it. Check out his latter videos for a nice demo.

Best,

Andy

So it would seem that the fulcrum is now more between the 2nd finger & thumb, rather than the btwn 1st &...is this the implication

" So it would seem that the fulcrum is now more between the 2nd finger & thumb, rather than the btwn 1st &...is this the implication?"

Exactly... Look at Weckl's video, Steve Smith's DVD, as well as look at Gadd's right hand when he plays.
They all use the thumb and the middle finger as the fulcrum, and the index finger guides it. I emailed Steve Smith about this, and he said that when he grips it like that, the stick is able to resonate, and has better rebound.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:
Rudy,

My take on the Moeller method (and there are a number of variations) is that the index finger touches the stick during the stroke. The index finger is used only as a guide and does not wrap around the stick. This is the way Weckl teaches it. Check out his latter videos for a nice demo.

Best,

Andy

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi andy,
Thanks for the reply. I'll have to buy his later vid.

My finger does touch the index finger, and now it's not as wrapped around the index as it used to be. I was just wondering if the stick is meant to stay in contact with the index all the time and completely stay in the crease of my finger, or whether it should be allowed to come off or move away from the crease during the downstroke? When chapin demonstrates in front of the camera he shows the finger moving freely, and says the grip is from the back of the hand, which is where my fulcrum is now. But when he goes to the pad, I can't tell if his index is completely staying with the stick or moving freely.
Just before where he says " its moving in my hand , not imprisoned in my hand" he seems to show the stick moving a little across his index. so, this is the detail I was hoping to be sure of, whether I hold the stick just in the crease of my finger, or let it be free'r and just use the groove as a guide.
Thanks.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/dr...ro/dom7HQ.html

...& here this is how i played most of my life, until i started hearing/being told to have the fulcrum between the 1st & thumb *sigh*...oh well, as it is now, i pivot between both the 1st & 2nd & thumb, kinda using em both at the same time, or 1 or the other, depending upon what i'm trying to execute.]
I rem Stv Smith [AWA some other "big-leaguers"] actually used to focus on the back fingers for gripping the stick, & letting it flop around at the top fingers [balancing off the thumb [img]eek.gif[/img] ] for rock or uptempo swing....

First off, let me be the first to say that I think your time has little to do with your grip. That's all inside you, not in your technique. (at least IMO)

However, your sound and touch is certainly impacted by your grip.

I personally use the index/thumb grip as I feel it allows for maximum control. I WANT to be able to use all my fingers, particularly the more agile and controllable ones like the index. Trapping or not trapping is about how tight you're holding the stick. You can "guide" the stick using any grip.

If it works for you, it's right.

Derek, I hear what you say, but wouldn't holding the stick correctly affect how the stick is thrown down, which in turn would surely affect the time? If the stick is thrown down by holding it tight instead of looser, wouldn't that affect where the beat is placed, as well as the feel?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

yes it would affect it, but that's because your brain is telling it to throw the stick down at the wrong time.

You see what I'm saying? It's like saying you have 5 fingers so your time is bad. Good or bad is in YOU, not your fingers, grip, feet. Jeff or Carlos would've had good time with peg legs. As long on your grip is not actually preventing you from playing (and the subtleties we're discussing are far from that) then I maintain that the time/groove is all inside you.

btw, I also believe you can hold the stick loose and keep all fingers on the stick.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Derek DeFields ]</font>

I'm really interested in the grip thing too because after all that's a very important part of how we get our sound. You have to make the stick work for you and I think the grip helps to have the stick more balanced than in this others styles of grip I've tried.

Besides the Weckl DVD "How To Develop Technique" and Chapin's "Speed, Power, Control, Endurance", I would recommend Morello's "The Natural Approach To Technique".

Joe Morello's video I mentioned above goes into the natural approach to double stroke rolls using a wrist stroke followed by finger stroke all using the natural rebound of the stick (Gladstone Technique) as opposed to lifting the stick off the surface. Joe also teaches what he calls the forearm throw which is used in instead of the Moeller technique (he does teach the Moeller as well). It is a quick motion where your elbow moves away from your body as the stick is raised. The elbow goes back in and the stick goes down to the head. The power of the stroke in addition to your wrist comes from your elbow, forearm and shoulder. Weckl's video also has a part on "Double Stroke Rolls" where he discusses his "new approach" to double strokes, in which he gets the sound "off" the drums rather than PUSHING down and choking the sticks in other words. The infamous Mr.Gruber(WTF?), has a short segment(clip 6), where he rambles about something i'm sure others are still trying to figure out LOL.

Chapin's video is pretty straight forward on the subject of Moeller and includes a short booklet with exercises(btw if you can't get enuff of THAT, I'd recommend Chafee's "Technique Patterns" and Morello's "Master Studies. Chapin? teaching approach is very concise and easy to understand IMO, there are none of those "cheesy" crappy 80's effects u get from most Warner Videos(Weckl's/Chambers etc). The only setback is that there's only 1 camera angle whereas Weckl has different angles(from top/side-view and so forth). And Dave has nicer hair 2. [img]wink.gif[/img]

YO

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 13, 2004 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
yes it would affect it, but that's because your brain is telling it to throw the stick down at the wrong time.

You see what I'm saying? It's like saying you have 5 fingers so your time is bad. Good or bad is in YOU, not your fingers, grip, feet. Jeff or Carlos would've had good time with peg legs. As long on your grip is not actually preventing you from playing (and the subtleties we're discussing are far from that) then I maintain that the time/groove is all inside you.

btw, I also believe you can hold the stick loose and keep all fingers on the stick.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 26, 2004 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Derek DeFields ]</font></font>

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, I believe that you're correct, but I don't think I fully understand everything you're saying, so forgive me for asking further. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If you're saying holding the stick tighter would affect things and the stick would be thrown down at the wrong time, as in your first sentence, how does that relate to you then going on to say it has nothing to do with grip?
[img]confused.gif[/img]

edit: oh I think I see now. So moeller is just for improving feel, not time?

I should emphasise that I'm talking about time as the occassional beats that come a bit late, that are out of time, not so much timekeeping as regards speeding/dragging. Thats why I was thinking grip would improve that, as opposed to a metronome.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

No, You can use it as a time keeping device. On Weckl's Practice video he uses the "time by motion" concept in which he incorporates the Moeller stroke in the hi hat playing 8th's, quarter notes, triplets, 16th's. I also find myself, not aware of it, playing this way before I saw Weckl's video. And like it's wisely pointed out in the intro-foreword to Chapin's video(by Famularo), you could develop this stuff on your OWN, without even knowing the name of the concept perse. I use it, and have learned to play triplets, 16ths, etc. with one hand at decent tempos. I have found that the finger used as the fulcrum depends greatly on what style of music is being played. Had I not adopted this technique I could have never learned this with the thumb/index style. As it stands now, I switch back and forth during my play depending on what I want. So it's not like i'm saying one is better than the other, I'm simply saying that drumming is an evolution, and you have to start somewhere I guess. But don't restrict yourself to one technique, grip, method or whatever.

It seems the hesitation for most guys is to develop technique or control, as a resource. I realize those concepts are not for everyone but you might want to try it and see if it feels good to you. It sure does to me. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bozzio:
No, You can use it as a time keeping device. On Weckl's Practice video he uses the "time by motion" concept in which he incorporates the Moeller stroke in the high hat playing 8th's, quarter notes, triplets, 16th's.

Again, the hesitation for most guys are how much technique or control you have available, as a resource. I realize those concepts are not for everyone but you might want to try it and see if it feels good to you. It sure does to me. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font></font>

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks bozzio, or may I call you terry? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That's good news for me, because, I've practised loads with a metronome and everyone tells me I have good time. But I've always hated the 'out of time' strokes I hear that come a millisecond or so later than the other instruments, and I was hoping it was just an adjustment I could make, and the moeller or similar version that I play does seem to help that.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

Bozzio nailed it. Weckl's time by motion thing relates the distance between notes to the motion of the hands and arms and that is directly related to the Moeller method.

The thumb/index fulcrum method is the way I was taught and the method that I used and taught for decades.

At my first lesson with Weckl, he told me that my playing was good, however, the grip caused my playing to be tight, precise and small. We spent 45 minutes just playing one stroke with the Moeller technique. It was one of the toughest 45 minutes of my playing career. There I was, unlearning decades of doing the thumb/index finger fulcrum method. It was frustrating. However, after shedding on this thing for a few years, I don't want to ever go back to the "old way" as Dave puts it. It's not that the thumb/fulcrum grip is wrong. It's just that, from my experience, it's limiting. My playing with the fulcrum between the thumb/index and middle fingers results in a much better sound from the kit, including the high hat (which is way cool) and my speed has significantly increased. After being at the same level of playing for several years, this was a very welcome change!!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Andy Vermiglio ]</font>

Wow andy, you had a lesson with the man himself, that's very, very cool!!

Good to know I'm not the only one that's played for years only to realise that I've not been using a better method till now.

You say it improved your sound, did you also have the same problem with nailing strokes perfectly in time before, and do you also see that difference now? Do you now nail every stroke on the sweetspot so that when you listen back to a recording, you dont cringe like I do when I hear late beats not synched up with the music?

The Moeller meets Gruber meets Weckl meets Chapin method is about improving BOTH & ALL aspects...bettering your technique by constant practice, study, concentration, & analyzing of this/these types of methods will enable you to have better facility, comfortability, & minimal-if-any hindrance to the physics of execution in playing the instrument [which is, to a large degree, technique AND... of which time is of utmost importance...to better get the sound AND ideas that you desire from your head to your limbs...it just comes w listening & learning these principles/"modems," & lots of practice, concentration, & analyzation of yourself, in implementing this/these concepts...there is no shortcut...in order to discover it, you must learn, then practice & play continuously in order to sort things out & aquire the skill. Just lots of practicing of it in order to acquire the feel, touch, & sensitivity...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2004 12:50 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

That all sounds very good to me FuseU1 [img]smile.gif[/img]

Having an inquisitive mind such as yours shows that you are doing & will continue to do well, "Luke Skywalker" [img]wink.gif[/img] ...your tenacity is spot on. Keep it up.

"Good 'luck,'" & keep on drumming [or, "hitting things"] -
[except women, family, true friends, & small fuzzy animals, of course!] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Humbly [img]redface.gif[/img] ,
Fuse

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FuseU1:
Having an inquisitive mind such as yours shows that you are doing & will continue to do well, "Luke Skywalker" [img]wink.gif[/img] ...your tenacity is spot on. Keep it up.

"Good 'luck,'" & keep on drumming [or, "hitting things"] -
[except women, family, true friends, & small fuzzy animals, of course!] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Humbly [img]redface.gif[/img] ,
Fuse

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! fuse, I like that last bit. Thanks for the encouragement. [img]smile.gif[/img]
After 30 years of playing, in many ways I still feel like I know nothing, as this grip thing proves. I would do anything now to give up work for a year and just practise drums again everyday, but alas, tis not possible any more.

You're right Rudy, I mis-spoke.

Holding it tight sounds bad but won't impact your time IMO. (though it may very well sound bad anyway)

Moeller is the best way for healthy limbs. It does not include an adjusted fulcrum in the traditional teachings however. I do think holding the stick as loose as possible is important for touch.

Cool derek. Actually, I find when I'm playing segue songs for an hour as I do with my band, my grip is fairly loose but I can feel it getting a bit tighter as the set goes on, so I'm trying to focus on keeping it as loose as at the beginning of the set.

I think my favourite porcaro groove, in fact toto song as well, is 'georgy porgy'.It grooves like a mofo [img]wink.gif[/img]

Hey fuse, condescending? No way man, it didn't even cross my mind, I'm genuinely grateful for your nice words [img]smile.gif[/img]
edit: oh no, I was laughing at the bit about not hitting fuzzy creatures, lmao.

The avatar I've had on my computer as a large pic for years, with a few others from that sting gig. I just now sized it down. Looks pretty cool now I see it up! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2004 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

the thing i go for when using my attempt at the moeller technique is to get the stick to bounce off the head freely. of it's own will.

if you bounce a stick on the drum and let it bounce back in the air, it does a semi circle. the fulcrum point that it was held at is the pivot point of the circle.

to me, when using the moeller and other techniques like it well, you get the same motion, a semi circle.

this happens without holding the stick, so gripping tightly isn't needed at all. we only need the fingers to control the bounce and send it back.

for me, it feels like bouncing a basketball, within your control, but not controling the whole stroke, only the act of throwing it back down. how tight and loosely grip is adjusted depends on how much to choke the stroke bounce height.

gently squeezing the rear fingers stops the stroke from bouncing all the way up.

i also feel that when dealing with timing issues. ie: the occasional out of time note ect.

it could be from too many muscle groups being used,if you grip too tight with your fingers.
then you're wrists need to get more directly involved with a basic stoke.
larger muscles have more room for error and are harder to control.

i don't mean to just use your fingers, the wrist generates the stroke but the fingers are loose enough so that the stick slides around a bit on the downstroke and the upstroke.

this also gives maximum energy transfer, to the skin for better tone.

if gripped too tighly energy gets kicked back into the stick.... not good.


chris perra

Good post, Chris.
You've been away for a while - good to "see ya" back again!

Hello chris,
Wow, that was a fascinating post, thank you. And I think you've answered my question about movement of the stick in the hand where you say
"fingers are loose enough so that the stick slides around a bit on the downstroke and the upstroke."

This is in fact what I've sort of been doing the last few weeks, and you say it's a possible key to timing errors. Well,yeah, I feel it's helping me that way enormously. I think my grip was too tight before, so I just need to keep it loose.
I think this thread is probably going to be the most valuable one for me that I ever make.
Thanks again.

"I always have insecurities about my hands cramping up. They used to a lot, and still do once in awhile. All my fingers would cramp and shut tight. You couldn't pry them apart. When I went on the road with Steely Dan, I went nuts! Toward the end of the show my hands would be twitching. I sweat heavy so I would hold on to the sticks too tight, then I would cramp. I started shaving the lacquer off my sticks, and that helped. I have small hands and they hurt after I play because I hit so hard. It's just something in my heart; it feels better to play hard and really kick it out. I'm always nervous before going on stage. I'll try to warm up and talk to myself and stuff, but that hasn't done a lot for me over the years. On the last tour, I finally found my groove. After every show, I soak my arms in a big bucket of ice water. It kills me at first, but then it feels great. It's the same thing baseball pitchers do. The swelling goes down. The next day I wouldn't be tight or my bones wouldn't ache. Also, for that last four years I've had sticks made where they just dip the tip and the shoulder taper in lacquer only. Nothing much slips out of my hands now." --Jeff Porcaro

Ah, the spice of life! The Moeller (relaxed grip) has really made playing fun again for me, and as Andy alluded to, it was weird and scary at first, like loosing what you have gained in search of a better path, not knowing if you'll ever get there. In short, change is hard after a certain age.
For real tight funk grooves (many accents and pop-ups), it's very hard for me to keep the grip the same over playing a "looser" style of music.

Regarding the Jeff quote, he did have a signature sound IMO, and a large part of that had to do with his, "playing hard and really kick it out" attitude. "Hold the Line" is pure feel and I can't play it with the same passion using the Moeller grip. With other types of pop music, I can.

Rudy quote:
"LOL! fuse, I like that last bit. Thanks for the encouragement.
//After 30 years of playing,// in many ways I still feel like I know nothing, as this grip thing proves. I would do anything now to give up work for a year and just practise drums again everyday, but alas, tis not possible any more."

Hey, man, i apologize if my post had ANY hint of condescension [img]redface.gif[/img] , as it was DEF not intended...i am right there with ya, still learning, changing, & growing myself...just trying to be proactive & all, ya know!
...& so, onward!

Peace.
-Fuse

PS - BTW, excellent avatar Rudy, [I have that big one of Vinnie, too...was it from Steve's HOD site, if mem serves correctly?]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2004 01:00 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Rudy, regarding the time/Moeller issue, I can see improvement when I'm "in the Moeller zone". As Fuse mentioned, it takes alot of practice and dedication to keep the Moeller technique in shape.

Pocket thanks for the Jeff quote! Now, I would venture to say that Jeff didn't experience the same brutality on his chops playing in the studio as he did playing live. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) He certainly didn't sound that way on those great recordings of his. If this is correct, I would have to say that struggles playing live were most likely due to the struggles in hearing his playing in the monitors.

Going back to Weckl, I really believe there's no way he could maintain the Moeller flow without having a very clear mix of the drums in his ears for both his studio and live gigs.

Right, Andy.
Dave is the consumate sound tech AWA kick-asp player...he is in COMPLETE CHARGE of his personal mix if at all possible...& he mixes on his solo discs AW...he is 1 all-around [& smart [img]wink.gif[/img] ] formidable musician...

sounds like your on the right track rudy. to me the moller is a great tool. i initially gravitated towards it for the need for speed. over time i wind up using it for almost everything.

my hands have less fatigue and i find my timing is better overall. it does feel way different to control vs straight wrist movements.

for me it's almost like trying to ride a bike at a steady speed, you don't pull the pedals back up, you have to wait till it reaches the crest and push again. at different tempos this feels different.

i had too work out the timing of the wrist movement in conjunction with the pressure of the fingers. they go hand in hand. it takes awhile. but once you get it down it's way more consistant.

i think this is because you're working with the natural physics or the stick rather than controlling the whole motion moreso with the wrist


chris perra

Thanks chris, andy, fuse, bozzio, etc, terrific replies which I'm very grateful for. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yeah, you guys are "onto it" [img]wink.gif[/img]
Nice post again, Chris, esp that bike pedal thing, i hadnt thought of it in that way.

How the Moeller stroke, along with any other good technique, helps my time is that it basically gives me more efficient and more user friendly tools in which to get my ideas out of my head and into the ears of others. The funny thing about the Moeller stroke is how Jim teaches it; it is quiet different from one of the fundemental building blocks that Gruber uses, however they are means to the same technical ends. Gruber focuses on playing "on" the surface of the head and not playing "through" it. Jim, on the other hand, wants you to think of playing "though" the head so that you will get the desired effect by means of proper rebound of the stick. Although I don't believe he actually wants you to play "through" the head, he uses it as a teaching tool to get one to feel how it feels to have the stick rebound fully, with good velocity, instead of somehow possibly not keeping the momentum of the stick flowing all the way to the head (letting up on the stroke speed, possibly, to therefore play "on" the head). After that, one can shift their mental picture of "where" to play once they use that little trick to understand part of the technique. Another interesting thing that Jim told me was to never practice Moeller in your playing on the kit, as in when you are working on other things, such as independence or facility around the kit, etc... He said practice it as it's own entity and let it find it's way into your playing instead of focusing on making fit into your playing. Reason being it tends to be taken out of context or twisted when one doesn't spend enough time on it by itself and tries to bring it to their playing on the set before they fully grasp it. When you take it on it's own it will, by path of least resistance, integrate into your playing where it should. What can I say, he is right! As far as everything you said, you sound like you got it down! I just thought I would offer a little more just for extra stuff to reads' sake.
Good luck!