..."though not the fastest cat out there"...
I beg to differ. [img]wink.gif[/img]
He's fast enough. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
As fast as any of the "fastest," when needed.
Don't believe me?
Just listen to some of the Zappa stuff - ESP Shut Up NPYG....
Printable View
..."though not the fastest cat out there"...
I beg to differ. [img]wink.gif[/img]
He's fast enough. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
As fast as any of the "fastest," when needed.
Don't believe me?
Just listen to some of the Zappa stuff - ESP Shut Up NPYG....
I think Vinnie's 'doubles' are amongst the best around and his muscianship is superb, great taste for all musical situations.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh yes, I've heard the live Zappa stuff, and it kills, as well as being some of the fastest stuff out there. When I make that comparison, I'm thinking of Chambers/Smitty (both of which are more arm speed than fingers/wrists in my opinion), some Donati, etc. Believe me, I wasn't at ALL implying he's not one of the fastest, because he is when he chooses to be.Quote:
Originally posted by FuseU1:
..."though not the fastest cat out there"...
I beg to differ. [img]wink.gif[/img]
He's fast enough. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
As fast as any of the "fastest," when needed.
Don't believe me?
Just listen to some of the Zappa stuff - ESP Shut Up NPYG....
As far as doubles, to be honest, there are times when Vin's doubles aren't the most even and smooth, though still always even to an extent. Dave's doubles sound more even to my ear on a more consistent basis. (NO, I'm not saying one is better than the other!!)
Plaid, have you seen the ebay DVD of Vinnie with the Zildjian Clinics, PASIC, etc? Some of his singles/doubles in those clips are as fast as anything I've ever heard from anyone - Donati, Chambers, you name it. I think that's why I like Vinnie so much, too: he can play at light speed, but chooses not to most of the time because it just isn't needed and usually doesn't sound very interesting/musical.
Virgil Donati: This guy brought a whole new level of technicality to the table for drummers. If playing monstrous polyrhythms or complex patterns is your gig, this guy is the measuring bar. He made people pay attention to technique and double kick. While I don't enjoy his playing so much as I do Weckl and Colaiuta, he's still incredible at what he does best.
I still think I'm being a bit misread about Vinnie. I know the guy is fast. (I've made comments about his left hand in previous posts). I know he's without question one of the fastest. Yes, I've seen some Zildjian Day clips, and I was AT PASIC '94 in Atlanta, so I've seen him in action. I've said numerous times that this man is my favorite drummer and is the single biggest influence for me. Though it's really not at all the point of this thread, I still say that Vin's doubles can get a tinge uneven at times, but that's part of what gives him a certain sound, so it's ok! It's all good!
Agreed on Virg. Though his fluidity and song playing don't get me at all, he dominates the technical side of things from all that I've seen.
Plaid wrote:
"Vinnie is NOT a great musician who happens to play drums....he is without question a BORN drummer who (from what I've heard) KNOWS his instrument, and the purpose and function of said instrument."
I have to disagree man. IMHO someone being considered a great musician is probably one of the highest compliments you could pay to someone who plays an instrument. A compliment I would certainly pay Vinnie if given the chance to meet him. True, he is an extremely knowledgable drummer as well. His knowledge of licks, tricks, rudiments and chops is so vast, he's forgotten more than most of us will ever learn. He's transcended stickings and rudiments, and emotes on the drumkit better than anyone I've ever heard.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 12, 2004 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Clintuplet ]</font>
Wow, I'm having to correct myself a bunch on this one. When I said that Vinnie is not a great musician who happens to play drums, I meant it differently than what you're saying. Let me use an example to explain what I meant. Let's say you have an "Athlete", and he decides to box (I'm a big boxing fan, so bear with me). Being a great athlete doesn't necessarily make you a great boxer (even if you turn out to be great). It's difficult to know how to word all of this correctly, but I'll try to sum it up. Vinnie is a great musician, but he is not a great drummer BECAUSE he's a great musician....see what I mean? He's a great drummer because he's a great drummer, and his high level of musicianship is what makes him the best. I just believe that drums were EXACTLY what he was born to do, and his great musicianship coupled with that makes him what he is. I really hope I don't come off sounding ridiculous saying this stuff. I'm just trying to become more clear. I just don't believe VC was born, and one day said, "You know....f*** it....I'm just gonna play the drums and see what happens." Geez.........I'm digging myself a hole here, and I need to stop. I'm hoping some of you get what I'm trying to say. I really do.
Ok....wait....I'll say it like this: You're born a prodigal musician, and there's an array of instruments to choose from. You choose one, then run with it knowing that you could have been great at any of them. In my opinion, Vinnie was born with only one option.
I truly am sorry if this sounds stupid. That's just how I see it.
(I know, I know.....you're all thinking, "What in the f%&* is he saying??") Oh well, I tried.
Steve Gadd - Probably the biggest influence on drummers like vinnie, weckl, novak, and countless others in the last 2 decades. He's one of the only drummers who's chops are so insane yet are easily accessible. Almost anyone can figure out what Gadd is doing, at least, more easily than trying to figure out weckl and vinnie. In that respect, Gadd spawned zillions of clones. The ultimate compliment for him, I'm sure.
His biggest or most well known contribution IMO : paradiddle licks, and, making drum solo's more musical and rhythmical by mostly containing them in a structure of 4/4.
"Vinnie was born with only one option."
I heard Vinnie plays a mean dulcimer. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]eek.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! I was hoping to get a response like that.Quote:
Originally posted by Clintuplet:
"Vinnie was born with only one option."
I heard Vinnie plays a mean dulcimer. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]eek.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no arguement here. Though I don't listen to Gadd on a regular basis, I have no choice but to subconciously thank his patterns, licks, and rhythms for loving Vinnie and Dave. (and the other thousands he's influenced)Quote:
Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
Steve Gadd - Probably the biggest influence on drummers like vinnie, weckl, novak, and countless others in the last 2 decades. He's one of the only drummers who's chops are so insane yet are easily accessible. Almost anyone can figure out what Gadd is doing, at least, more easily than trying to figure out weckl and vinnie. In that respect, Gadd spawned zillions of clones. The ultimate compliment for him, I'm sure.
His biggest or most well known contribution IMO : paradiddle licks, and, making drum solo's more musical and rhythmical by mostly containing them in a structure of 4/4.
Completely disagree on Virg not being fluid. Do not know where that comes from. His concepts and compositions might not be everyones BAG but the guy is extremely fluid, I have been five feet from him more than a few times and his playing is very consistent and precise and his control unbelievable. Maybe you mean his playing is too busy and over the top that I would understand. How I would love for some to see him backing up Tina Arena in a pop setting or hear him with Southern Sons I think he would SHOCK! people with his other musical sensibilities, no DOUBT.
He does what he does not because he has to because he WANTS to. It is not like he is CONFINED to what he does it is just his vision.
Dig
Sorry, Dig, but I still have to disagree on Virg. Tight.........yes. Technical.....undeniably. Precise......absolutely (from what I've seen and heard). Relaxed and fluid enough for any musical situation thrown at him?.....haven't seen it yet. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it hasn't thus far.
Hey Plaid, I get what you're sayin' with Vinnie. I just thought/think that from everything I've heard, his singles & doubles are just as fast or faster than everyone else's. Anyway, I definitely agree with what you're saying about his destiny with drums. Or maybe I don't... it's possible he was born to play guitar or sax, but chose drums instead - and that's why his feel is so far out there [img]wink.gif[/img]
As for Virgil, I've heard him outside Planet X and solos. I heard him play with CAB, and I dunno... he just feels too robotic to me - TO ME. You may love what he does, but I just can't into his style outside of the technical aspects.
And if there were any one drummer I'd love to sound/play like other than Vinnie, it would no doubt be Steve Gadd. I've heard crazier, faster, and more confusing, but he plays some insanely hip shit. I don't know if feel like Gadd and Colaiuta have is possible to be developed, but I know I don't have but maybe an ounce of it.
Well the best way to see it, well it is too SEE IT [img]tongue.gif[/img] I fortunately have seen it lucky me [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Dig
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't mean any disrespect towards your opinion, dig, and I don't think anyone else does either. It's very true that actually seeing someone live can prove to be an enlightening experience, but judging from MD97, and the CAB clips I've of Virg, I would never hire him for certain types of gigs. Robotic, as said above, is a very fitting term.Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Man:
Well the best way to see it, well it is too SEE IT [img]tongue.gif[/img] I fortunately have seen it lucky me [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Dig
Well that is why one cannot make an determination of one based on one or 2 settings even though I have a different view of the CAB clips, what Virg is playing sounds very consistent and smooth to me does not sound uneven or rough at all, I do not put much stock into what he looks like. Some guy's do pay more attention to the look than the sound. His singles, doubles, flams combo's etc with his hands and his feet are very nice indeed.
But hey we all decipher things different. No problem. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Dig
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I absolutely agree that the appearance of someone when they play can have a big influence on one's opinion of their playing, but a good pocket is FELT, and the admittedly very few pocket situations I've heard Virg play haven't grooved me like they should (in my opinion). Though there are TONS of examples of a great pocket, take a look at that DiCenso video clip where the cam is behind his kit to the lower left. Go to :38 seconds into it......THAT is a great pocket. Virg could NEVER (judging from what I've heard/seen) play that groove and make it move even CLOSE to what Dave does there. In my opinion, Virg "muscles" his sound too much at the cost of a really good feel. Again....just my opinion.....he's still one of the greats of our time.Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Man:
Well that is why one cannot make an determination of one based on one or 2 settings even though I have a different view of the CAB clips, what Virg is playing sounds very consistent and smooth to me does not sound uneven or rough at all, I do not put much stock into what he looks like. Some guy's do pay more attention to the look than the sound. His singles, doubles, flams combo's etc with his hands and his feet are very nice indeed.
But hey we all decipher things different. No problem. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Dig
If you get the chance buy and listen to Moonbabies or The Moon Is Falling to name a few.
Virg plays some of the most complex stuff to date and it SOUNDS and FEELS good and you have to not think of how he look's or forget the style of music and just hear the drumming for itself, you might hate the style of music, actually you might like The Moon Is Falling. Just a little recommendation.
Dig
Uh oh, looks like another thread with intense Virg discussions...I'll stand back and watch (read?).
there's only but one guy who threw everything upon it's head, and who caused Vinnie to adopt his style, and that's BC.
There's a thing about Tony and Cobham that differs from VC and Weckl and it's as if the kit was there to be commanded in a physical way by Tony and Billy, and with Dave and Vinnie, the kit has sorta won the day, in an ergonomic sense. Maybe a more practical sense.
What's more amazing to watch...Vinnie doing his stuff with a modicum of effort, seemingly, or Cobham playing that huge ass Fibes set and going up and down the toms with huge stick height and then throwing in crossovers that are impossible to replicate.
And I think Billy whad such a long history of playing straight ahead and other types of music that it helped him get inside the MO music and play stuff no one played before. That's maybe what I don't hear from Virg, a depth of musicality, maybe a subtelty, when you compare him to other great drummers.
I found the Bruford book with transcriptions of the bigs songs he played and the notes he played were wacko. When you think of weird beats, you think Bruford beats...it's always been that way for me...Neil copped his famous ride pattern from Bruford in KC...
You know your shit, benjamin, when it comes to Bruford, Cobham and Tony Williams. Your comparison of physical command/ergonomic command of the kit is spot on.
Huge stick height definitely wins the T-Bo 'Succinct Saying of the Quarter' award.
This is kind of a difficult topic to start, but I'm hoping to get detailed responses. I guess we should start with the Big Two to whom this site is dedicated: VC and DW.
For me personally, here are the things I think of when I think of each of these guys:
Dave Weckl: Doubles on the drumset (be it hands or foot). I think he made drummers pay more attention to how evenly played doubles brings a whole other sound to it. I also think cymbal usage and selection of sounds pertaining to cymbals is a unique contributiion. He ALWAYS seems to know exactly what will work best with any given part when he uses his cymbals, no matter what brand/setup. From the Fusion I've listened to, he seems to be the guy who gave it a more "modern" sound (if you will), at least when it comes to the drumming. The music he plays with his solo band. He knows how to place accents musically, and usually produces very enjoyable tunes from a drum perspective, even if you don't really like the song itself....without overdoing it (most of the time).
Vinnie Colaiuta: The reasons for him are entirely different that DW, which is kind of weird since we kind of lump them both together so much. It really isn't as cut and dry for him. I think the first thing we all could agree on is his ability to make odd time/modulation sound completely interesting and musical. To me, it never sounds like he's doing a math problem when he plays it. Versatility is the obvious next choice (if not the first). The man can play any style, and make it sound good. I haven't even gotten to his technical ability yet. That's on a level all it's own, and though not the fastest cat out there, his solo playing is usually the most interesting for just about every reason. As Garfield said, the way he places his syncopations and accents set him apart from everyone else. My last contribution is the "element of surprise" factor that he brings to the table. Though, yes, he has a certain "bag of tricks" that he uses (right Steve [img]wink.gif[/img] ), he'll always surprise you with a slight deviation of similiar things, and make it sound totally different, which takes a certain mind that knows time inside and out to be able to do effectively. (Don't agree??? So why is it that when Vinnie plays with Keith frickin' Urban, you just HAVE to watch???) Vinnie is NOT a great musician who happens to play drums....he is without question a BORN drummer who (from what I've heard) KNOWS his instrument, and the purpose and function of said instrument.
Anyway, I could go on all day. Feel free to make your own observations about either of the two guys above, or any other drummers of our generation and their contributions. I'm hoping to hear from most of you, as I want to hear how YOU hear these people. That makes it more interesting! Cheers!
Sticking up for Virg!
Virgil is one hell of a drummer, just like Weck and Vinnie. Weck and Vinnie have been in the limelight a good 10-15 years before Virg came out.
And that's 10-15 years of other drummers playing their stuff.
So far there are not too many drummers playing Virgil's stuff, just a few maybe that are known.
And Gadd, jeez, everytown has some dude playing a recording custom kit with a Gadd haircut, playing paradiddles on the hihat and snare.....
Here's how ridiculously narrow-minded and biased I am: I have trouble even considering the possibility that I will like a drummer who plays matched grip. It's just this dumb phase I'm going through right now. I've even had friends lie to me and say certain guys play traditional. When I say they sound great, they then tell me they play matched. Undoubtedly, I'm then turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? Man, please don't squash me for this one. It's hopefully a temporary ailment.
Naahh, don't worry, Nikk...
...'Tis but a passing phase of temporary insanity [img]tongue.gif[/img]
...Go get a modern day lawyer worth their salt...they'll bail ya out [on the technicality].... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 13, 2004 05:13 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's interesting that you say this. I've actually wondered how people on this board feel about this very issue. Do you have a certain bias (again, not that there's anything at all wrong with having two asses) towards trad grip players? I personally do not. I think it just ends up that the trad players usually always end up playing the best stuff. (yes, I KNOW there are many exceptions, but you all get what I mean)Quote:
Originally posted by Nikk:
Here's how ridiculously narrow-minded and biased I am: I have trouble even considering the possibility that I will like a drummer who plays matched grip. It's just this dumb phase I'm going through right now. I've even had friends lie to me and say certain guys play traditional. When I say they sound great, they then tell me they play matched. Undoubtedly, I'm then turned off. Has anyone else experienced this? Man, please don't squash me for this one. It's hopefully a temporary ailment.
Oddly enough, I was just mulling over this idea the other day. It seems that EVERY top-notch player can play traditional grip, and tends to. Part of this, I'm sure, is that they group up with teachers who were very "traditional" in nature, since these monsters are 30-40s as it is. But, that's not to say that these guys don't ever play matched, either. Vinnie went through a time when he played matched, and I've seen other fabulous drummers play matched - they just tend to use conventional.
That said, even though I don't feel grip has any bearing on skill/etc, I have begun to develop my traditional grip, heh. I've taught myself everything I know on drums through books and resources on the internet, so I haven't had any personal instruction on any part of my drumming, let alone grip. Because of that, I just used matched because it was easiest and made the most sense at the time. Luckily, I developed the moeller technique and other great habits on my own by doing what felt most natural to me.
So I guess what I'm saying is, even though I don't see any reason why traditional grip should influence my opinion of a player or that player's actual ability, I am indeed learning to use it.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 13, 2004 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Manos ]</font>
Specific Contributions...
I say one of them being Dennis Chambers for sure! They way he funkyfied Fusion with John Scofield is phenomenal... Anyone here heard/seen Dennis on the "Brecker Brothers Live in Barcelona" video ?? Dennis' sloww and deeep groove on the second tune is ridiculously and outragously solid. How he literaly drives the band on the first track is out of this world. So for me, Dennis' contributions is not so much his fast hands as much as it is his contageous groove and pocket in Fusion. And of course, how he plays the hi-hat with his left hand has always inspired me big time.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 14, 2004 07:49 PM: Message edited by: beat Hit ]</font>
I think the biggest innovator hands down in the last 15 years at least is Virgil. I don't really consider Weckl or Vinnie of my generation since they were both well known LONG before I even considered drumming.
If I had to pick someone close to my age, I'd say Keith Carlock.
plaid, how can you say virgil is not fluid? that is 500% nonsense! yes, he sometimes muscles his drumming but who doesn't? even vinnie said in that clinic audio file that steve shared that you get a certain effect by muscling a single stroke roll compared to using rebound. i think it's impossible to play the way he does without being fluid. it's just not possible.
nikk, that is hilarious! i know how you feel!
I concur with Derek about Virg and I have already shared WHY! in past threads. He might not be playing with Sting or you might not like his pocket but who really cares he sure doesn't. He is THE! Innovator of the past ten to 15 years. I just got my hand's on an Audio copy of a recent Virgil clinic from November 2003 and he discusses his personal view of studio work and what attracts him to projects. Studio work and playing in a supporting role is O.K. with him, it is money and sometimes is a bit satisfying, sometimes it might be neccessary. But he has been there and done that ALOT (in Australia) he plays and practices and get's involved in projects to express what is on his mind and what is within him, to be able to release the on going creative process that drives him. To be part of creating something not done before to be part of a vision envisioned by other's also, but there has to be a challenge and it has to cause him to grow as an artist, if it does not he can basically take it or leave it.
Dig
Agree with you 1000% Shedder, being a very physical player DOES NOT mean you cannot be fluid at the same time. Virg is very "energetic" so to speak in much of what he play's but his execution is still very smooth and consistent. His execution is not just precise but even and smooth that IS=fluid. Being a relaxed drummer DOES NOT make you fluid, there are guy's who play very relaxed and they are NOT fluid at all but down right sloppy and very inconsistent at times. It is about execution, not how you set up or look or how much physical motion there is.
Carlock makes me CRINGE when I look at how he set's up and the physical motion going on but the execution is there and what he pulls off works real well most of the time. That is what matters.
Dig
Derek...
Simply out of ignorance on my part, since I don't know Carlock's playing (except 3 clips posted HERE), what aspect(s) of his drumming ranks him as an innovator? Since I am at it... You have any CD recommendations? I heard of Wayne Krantz but that's all... Thanks.
The Krantz stuff is all you need. Listen to Greenwich Mean; his tuning, his touch, sound, phrasing. I've never heard another player like him which to me anyway, is innovative.
...but it doesn't sound like you're disagreeing with me on the feels of the songs, Dig. I actually think that execution of one's stroke can absolutely have an affect on the pocket itself. It differs from player to player of course. Yes, Weckl was dogged in the past (by me as well) by being almost too precise and machinelike, but I'll tell you this....I would personally MUCH rather hear DW playing a song 15 years ago than VD playing that same song now. It seems like I'm getting scorned here for implying that Virg's pocket and feel just aren't among the best that I personally have listened to, and that's fine, but I know what I hear, and for my personal tastes in listening to groove/pocketed backbeat (which is the style I enjoy the most and shows the most character in my opinion), Virgil does nothing for me. Let's be honest.....how many of you out there listen to Virg to hear how good his "feel" and "fluidity" are in a song??? I would be willing to bet that honestly, you all (and myself) are for the most part enamored by his playing for basically ONE reason....his technical brilliance.....and there is NOTHING wrong with that. As I've said before in the past, those types of players are NEEDED in the drumming community to show how limits can be pushed.
sounds like you're describing thomas lang.
Both of you are actually right, for several reasons all of which are too involved to go into here again...
Besides, this kind of debate is basically moot [img]wink.gif[/img] ...
We've beaten the "VC/DW/VD Vs all comers" to death...shame, shame, you guys know better by now [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Steve once commented that Simon didn't do a whole lot for him...although i can completely understand this, Simon's always been 1 of my fav pop/prog-rock-fusion drummers [at the risk of labeling someone]...I "totally dig" the drumg on his 1st solo disc, the Beck & Townshend stuff, & that live Lobotomys vid [thx 5 [img]wink.gif[/img] ]...TBo once said he doesn't necessarily care for Tommy Campbell's playg [from the old Zildjian NY vid] - but I happen to think McLaughlin's Belo Horizonte had some killer drumg on it [& is a better rep of TC's playg than the NY vid]...some guys don't like Chambers' solo phrasing, but they like his playg within the song...Scofield's Loud Jazz, Blue Matter, & Pick Hits, awa the McLaughlin & DeFrancesco, & Dan stuff kick my tail every time i listen to...
Virg to me is an "Alien," such as is VC & DW, each of whom we all agree are within the class of being modern-day "Elvins/Buddys/Paynes/Morellos/Gadds/Billys/Tonys" of "our generation" & in history...
I totally understand Plaid's point, & he is entitled to it...at the same time, & like Dij & Shed, when i listen to PX Live Oz/Moonbabies, or OTV/SYI/Stretch, I always walk away with the expression wiped from my face & replaced with a [img]eek.gif[/img] ...however, I am not floored w the Vai dvd [altho it is a great dvd nonetheless afa being a rock concert, & Virg does do some cool phrasings every N&T, but the "groove" doesnt grab me by the cojones]...
It all comes down to personal tastes.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 16, 2004 02:03 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Him too. [img]wink.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by shedder:
sounds like you're describing thomas lang.
....but as a certain member of this board [img]wink.gif[/img] has said before.......Thomas plays solos, but "says" nothing.
Fuse, you're right. We've all been on that DW/VC/VD thing numerous times, and I'm deviating from the whole point of this thread, which is what you all feel are the contributions from this generation's greatest players. (not to DEBATE them, but to LIST what you think they are for any given player) My apologies to all. [img]smile.gif[/img]
No need to apologize to me Plaid I like to understand where guy's are coming from my understanding can grow also. The discourse on this board is good because we do not get into childish meanderings and personal attacks. Debate and expanding our views is healthy and I think we do it in a good fashion on this board, compared to other places.
I really understand where you are coming from ALOT more. Virgil's pocket sense affects the way you relate to his fill's, combo's etc. My self I tend to seperate them much more, other's do not. Like you said some guy's are on top of the beat right on the beat or behind the beat and everyone has a preference. Apart from Virgil's pocket(like it or not) his stroke execution is still done with GREAT control and his creativity is Astounding to me. I have something that I want to send to you soon Plaid I think you will enjoy it MUCH!, at least I think you will. Good talking to you.
Dig