Moeller, Chapin, Sports, Pain etc...

Hi Guys,
I would like to know how you gonna react to this thread...
In a Vic Firth video with D.Famularo and Jim Chapin, there's a statement from Mr Chapin
"If someone tell you No Pain No Gain just kill him".
IMO this is bullshit. And I don't want to going back over the Moeller technique, which is essential for anyone who want to access to a certain level of drumming.
BUT, I think the "No Pain, No Gain" proverb is true (I hope not being killed!!). What about the pro sportsmans (womens)? When it comes to develop any kind of muscles (as in drumming or sports) you can be sure having some pains, cramp etc... sooner or later. That's part of the process.
And even Jim Chapin (I could bet on that one) has met pain during his drummer's life.
Any reactions ?

Wow, intersting Yuk. I would say that when it comes to drumming, 'no pain no gain' is abosulte and unoquivical BULLSH1T!! I may be missing something here, but since when has it been necessary to experience pain in order to better yourself musically? That's nonsence. Drumming is about music and music is not about pain (unless you're writing a balld about your girlfriend splitting up with you of course!).

Even in terms of developing technique or staminar, this should ALWAYS be done in a relaxed, controlled manner and without any pain. If you do happen to be in discomfort then this is due to a flaw in your technique somewhere along the line and should be addressed accordingly. Nowhere have I ever read an article by a top drummer saying that it is necessary to experience pain in order to better yourself as a musician.

The reason that The Moeller/Gladstone/Stick Control etc etc techniques are employed is because these aid fluency, control and movement in drumming, not getting across some sort of pain barrier in order to better oneself. The drummer should as much as possible LET THE STICK DO THE WORK and ACCEPT THE REBOUND.
Look at our favourite players, Vinnie, Dennis, Virgin, Bill Stewart, Jack, Tain etc etc etc, do these guys seem like they are relaxed and controlled when playing or do they act like it's all bloody hard work?

As for the comparison to sportsmen/women, there isn't one, geddit?! Sports people are constantly pushing their body to it's limit in oder to be get faster or further. They are breaking speeds and times and are clearly shattered at the end of their events due to the sheers efforts and lenghts that they push their bodies in order to achieve these goals. This is FAR from what drumming/music should be. That's why I get so heated up when people post topics about the world fastest drummer. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSIC!!

If you do find yourself in physical pain then you should stop playing immediately. I went through a period when my right forearm was burning and I went to a teacher to sort it out. I wasn't accepting the rebound and had poor technique. I addressed this and remedied it. At no time did my teacher turn to me and say "yes, that's good - you're feeling the burn baby, now go through it!!"

I can't tell you how many fantsatic drummers/guitarists and keyboard playing friends of mine have had to give up due to tendonitis or RSI. They all had poor technique somewhere along the line and buggered their bodies up to the point where they were constantly aggravating their injuries. And that's what it is, and injury. It is not healthy.

As for that joker Dom Famularo, don't get me started!! I always find it worrying when someone imparts information and yet doesn't actually play/record themselves. Let me ask you a question: How many of the drummers on this board have a recording of Dom playing with a band? I've seen his video clips on the Vic Firth site and his playing is a joke! It's extremely technical and mechanical, like a robot. He has no conecpt of feel and never uses the word MUSIC. For him it's all about drumming. It's all very well travelling the world saying 'this is how it should be done', but why doesn't he gig?

No pain no gain? What a ludicrous concept. I'll see you on the doctors couch along with thousands of other drummers with ligament strain!!

I'd be interested to here what Erskoman, Mr Husband and Mr Weinberg have to say on this topic..... and relax!!

[img]mad.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Thanks for your accurate response Dazzler. That's exactly what I wanted: a RELAX debate ;-)
I think you have a exagerate view of my opinion.
I don't speak about HURT that I split from PAIN.
"Hurt" is associated with recovery, meaning stop playing for a necessary period. But "Pain" is, for exemple, after a practise session when you feel the muscles of your hand tensioned (meaning maybe some stretching to "destress"). Exactly the same when you've just done your jogging and you fell your legs a bit of "pain".
That's the only comparaison I make with sport as I'm highly agree with you when it comes talking about World Fastest Drummer.....That's bullshits....
I think pain (as descripted above) is the way to be more and more relaxed wich is the goal I agree too. I think it's dangerous to only tell your students => don't push, it's hard and you have to be relaxed !!
You have to push yourself with proper technique in order to not HURT you and with some "good" pain you gonna have some results.

There are 2 types of pain, one you should stick away from, and the other, well, that too, but the latter, people did experience results, the 1st pain, that terrible shooting pain, should be avoided at all costs I think, but the burn in your arm that builds muscle, is not bad, but then again, it's not my cup of tea, however, guys like Virgil seem to love it. He emphasizes that one should "squeeze through the pain" this has brought him results, no one can really agrue his hands, exept that they are very harsh, I mean that as in, you can really hear how into the drum he is playing. I rely on rebound, like Vinnie says "Accents and rebounds, I just think it sounds smoother" and it does, I think it has become apparent that rebound in your sticks does yeild a mother of a groove when you let the drums resonate, and the muscles relax. But from a technical aspect, both work, it just depends on what sound you want (but then again, with that burning pain, some peoples arms might not be used to such burn. So it would make sense to pace yourself should you choose that path).

I tend to agree with Dazzler on Dom, but even so, I say good for him for his achievments, if it wernt for him, people wouldnt be able to get lessons with Chapin in a fine studio, and get it taped! My 2c... [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ August 15, 2004 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Lucius74 ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 15, 2004 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Lucius74 ]</font>

well dazzler....i have to disagree slightly.

while you emphasise "music" so emphatically (which is a good thing) perhaps we can forget that drumming is like no other instrument. it IS a physical event.

this topic totally depends on what type of music your gonna play and what type of drummer you want to be. for example if your name is jeff hamilton or jeff tain watts, then practicing crazy rudiments to a metronome and trying to get doubles up to 135bpm and trying to condition your body to play flam triplets all around the kit etc....is not what they are gonna spend their time practicing! they just dont need all that. but then again....they can only play one style of music.

while one should never get too involved in the technical stuff (because it is obviously about playing music with OTHER people) its is still important if you want to play all styles of music....convincingly and confidently.

obviously because of my exposure to thomas lang, i am being influenced by his drumming and music concepts. but he is amazing, and i personally just want technique like that. and i cant ignore his awesome knowledge and skills. but of course, its totally a personal decision and desire to persue the technique thing and develop awesome facility on an instrument.

but....part of his thing is about conditioning your body and working on technique and getting each limb as strong as each other to make everything easier!....not matter how simple the pattern might be. and he plays all styles of music and can exectue everything easily. plus he is raising the bar for all drummers.

ANYWAY....back to the pain thing.....the last week i have been practing the stuff from a recent lesson with him and its all on pads and its pure technique advancement. and i am working thru the pain. but its more of a slight burning or ache.....theres no REAL pain. he said to set the meteronome for just past the comfort zone for a rudiment, so lets say 120bpm for doubles, then play then as 32nds until you can simply no longer carry on, im mean literally so the muscles are all burning.....then slow it down to 16nd note triplets to let the muscles relax....then go again.....then slow....then fast....etc. this part of practice is simply muscle development.

drumming IS a physical event, and alot of the PRACTICE has nothing to do with music and more to do with muscle development. just like an athlete.

however, then another part of my practice routine has been working on my swing and from the chapin's "advanced techniques for the modern drummer".....everything has to be balanced. the end product is of course "can u make the band feel good?"....but working on the technique stuff is just a personal goal and quest to make it easier and be able to play more interesting things.

balance with everything in life is important, but in order to progress and get a lot better, you have to push your body and brain to extremes, if your desire is to take your drumming to the top level.

the reason our favourtie drummers...weckl,dennis, vinnie, virg, etc etc make it look so easy is because they did all this practice when they were teenagers. dennis said he practiced on pillows to advance his muscles....he said its about destroying the muscle tissue so it grows back bigger and stronger during the rest period.

its like some people say...."yeah but dont u just need to play a song?"....well, yes. but what if its a complex song? what if its a loud song? what if its a loud and fast song that lasts 10 minutes?? then u'd be stuck. technique is just a tool to express yourself or get a job done for a producer etc. it may not be used all the time....but if someone asks for it, then u can lean over and take it out the bag.

but the pain thing..."no pain, no gain" is totally true, for anything in life. you get back what your put in. you dont think thomas and virgil got those hands and feet like that thru playing slowly and calmly???!!!

This has been probably the most interesting thread I've ever read on this forum. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about much of this stuff. This thread has now thrown me even more for a loop...
What is the correct answer regarding pain? Is it to be found somewhere in between the arguments? It seems that we should always STRIVE to avoid pain in technical development. However, it seems that slight pain MUST play into the equation from time to time. For instance: I'm currently doing a lot of remedial work with my left hand (traditional grip.) My problems started, I think, due to the fact that every teacher I've had since sixth grade has hammered the ideas of looseness and fluidity into my head. Thus, I came to realize this past year that many of my technical issues in my left hand were due to the fact that the hand virtually had NO grip of the stick. Over the years, I somehow managed to play while literally just having the stick rest in my hand. I interpreted their emphasis on looseness as "don't hold the stick" for some reason. This approach was great as far as looseness went, but was terrible for any sorts of singles, doubles, or precision work. There was no control and the stick was slipping all over the place. So, now that I'm going back and correcting this by actually HOLDING the stick at the fulcrum, I'm engaging new muscles. So it must be normal that I'll experience some mild soreness, right? I mean, after all, I've never used the muscles in that part of the hand for drumming until now. Did you guys experiece this at all? I'm frustrated to hell with trying to develop my left hand grip. It's like no matter how much I concentrate on holding the stick while making a stroke, the hand still tends to let go at the moment of impact. I've been wrestling with two reasons for this. 1.) The grip is simply not strong enough yet or 2.) Muscle memory has not yet taken effect and enabled my hand to stay in the position I assign it. Any thoughts on which one it is? Is it both perhaps? How do you all approach such long-term issues regarding your personal technique and playing? I'm talking here about those things about our technique or playing that seem so ass- backwards that they're unattainable.
As far as Famularo...I agree to an extent. It's nice that he spreads the gospel of drumming around the world. But he's a terrible player and unbearably fake as a person. He's the type of guy about whom I'd love a scandal to uncover.
As far as Chapin...his approach is interesting. I did a lesson with him a year ago. First of all, he's incredibly abstract in describing the Moeller system. He does not effectively quantify the specifics of the approach but rather shows the student by example. The problem was, he'd show the example of the supposed wrong way followed by the Moeller way, and the distinction between the two was not always clear to me. I'd ask him to elaborate but he couldn't really do so. Anyway, the most interesting thing to me about the left hand as far as Moeller goes, is that there is no grip whatsoever. Chapin really emphasized this to me. I even felt the stick in his hand, incredibly loose. The stick just "sits" there. He's based his entire approach on this. I asked him, how then, he went about making wrist strokes without the stick slipping. He then told me that he never makes pure wrist strokes. It's true. His playing is a freakin' triplet onslaught, all brought forth by the natural rebound of the stick. This is a nice tool to have and all, but extremely limiting as the sole means of playing the instrument. Chapin's approach is really best suited for players like Liberty Devitto, who have to slam out 2 and 4 night after night on the road, because it allows you to play really loosely and loudly.
Ok, ooops, what was the original topic? Haha, sorry. Thanks for the opportunity to unload some stuff, though. I look forward to the responses.

Good posts...including the begginning of Nikk's.

I'm sure Virg had a little "burn[ing]" in the shins while learning his exceptional DB skills in the beginning...I know I did/do... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

But you guys are right; a little "pain" [aka "burn"] is to be expected for a little while, esp in the beginning, when practicing uptempo burning [in your forearm muscles or shins - work your way up to it & it won't be extreme!]; but as Dazz said, not later or to the point that it's somewhat extreme or prolonged, which would lend itself to a poor technique problem...& pushing yourself to hard, ahead of your natural evolution...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 15, 2004 04:49 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Great subject as well as posts. I definitely identify with Nikk's post. I've been thinking and working with these issues myself. Sometimes I think we're dealing with semantics, when someone says we shouldn't experience any pain,(define pain?) or "your grip should be loose".(how loose?) I get myself in so much trouble when I start to take these things so literal. I think, if you work on endurance and speed you have to experience some burn, as said in previous posts. My technique has suffered by translating what someone says, especially in print, without experimenting with what actually works for me. Billy Ward's fantastic DVD talks a little bit about grip. What was eye opening for me was that even though Billy's grip was extremely loose it was not as loose as I was holding my sticks. I've had to go 'back to the drawing board'(practice pad) and address that issue. I've been confused somewhat by what Chapin has to say about the Moeller technique. I've heard him talk about rebound and 'accepting the rebound' on a few occasions and other times he says rebound has nothing to do with it. [img]confused.gif[/img]

Let's just remember that when people get old, they tend to say "funny things". My Grandpa does it all the time! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Very funny Chris !!!! I think it's exact. And as the word "kill" is used when we're sense to talk about music, that's disturbe me...but that could turn the thread into a philosophic one and that's not the purpose.
Glad to see your reactions and interesting points of view everybody.
In this period of Olymic Games (the only time we watch some boring games on tv ;-)), I think a lot about the link that (I think) exists between the practise time of a sportman (his preparation) and the practise time of the drummer. And the fact that this is an instrument that needs multiple "physical body impact" is a the line that make the link. Hum...I hope this is a min clear....
But which instrument don't need "physical body impact" each with his own specific way ?
IMO none. They all need that and the "No Pain No Gain" is for sure applicable to the learning of any instrument.
That's my view.
note: D.Famularo was cited because of his presence in the clip. The statement of Chapin is the only purpose of this thread. Famularo is part of the great drummers of this BIG planet as all of you I suppose ;-)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dazzler:

As for that joker Dom Famularo, don't get me started!! I always find it worrying when someone imparts information and yet doesn't actually play/record themselves. Let me ask you a question: How many of the drummers on this board have a recording of Dom playing with a band? I've seen his video clips on the Vic Firth site and his playing is a joke! It's extremely technical and mechanical, like a robot. He has no conecpt of feel and never uses the word MUSIC. For him it's all about drumming. It's all very well travelling the world saying 'this is how it should be done', but why doesn't he gig?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you agree that Dom Famaularo book "It's Your Move" is a Essential book for understand in deep Moeller stroke And how to use it for accent ? : he explain what George Stone forget to write on his "Accents & Rebounds" book to use it properly ?

All very good points here, and I totally agree with what seems to be the consensus that there are varying degrees of how we define "pain". A little bit is probably okay, as long as it doesn't turn into anything major. We all need to gauge that for ourselves. A bit more to my point: I did a yoga class last week (highly recommended to fellow drummers, btw! [img]wink.gif[/img] ) and the instructor made that same distinction between something, say, a position or a stretch, feeling "a bit intense" (which is okay, even good!) and being downright "painful" (bad. [img]mad.gif[/img] ).

I know that if I warm up on a pad, for 10-20 minutes before playing a gig, (especially on hard-playing gigs!) I play with so, so, SO much less tension in my body--especially my hands, than when I don't. I also find that stretching helps me immensely as well!

Another interesting thought: I discovered not too long ago that after a particularly hard-playing gig, if my hands are a little sore it helps to run them under cold water, or as was the case with me one evening, in a cooler full of ice and water (though only for a couple of seconds). It seems to cool any swelling and relax the muscles, and feels really good!

-Tom

Cool topic. I think that there are 2 different ways to playing... You have the really relaxed and loose/using rebound thing (gruber and weckl), and then you have the more muscular and forced approach (like dennis for example). Yes, dennis still plays relaxed, and yes weckl can still play muscular, but there 2 different ways to approach it. I think vinnie talks about it in one of his clinic bootlegs, something about how playing a figure, and then playing that figure a little forced with a bit of tension in the arms can produce a totally different sound and feeling... Also, I think there's a difference between 'getting tendonitis pain' and 'building muscle pain' (like from a pillow or something). You gotta know where to draw the line. About athletes, yes drumming is very physically involved, but maybe you're just thinking about the totally ripped guys walking around. There's also the thin and tall long distance runners and the very light weight lifters that lift 3 times their own weight....they're athletes too, so I think that it's fine to see drummers of different shapes and sizes (I don't think anyone will question Erskine's speed for example). As for Dom, I think he has some good points, and his free vids are cool. You don't have to be a great player to be a great teacher. Hockey coaches do it all the time, and just because someone is a great player, doesn't mean they're a great teacher. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard a clip of Gruber playing...

Quote:

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if my hands are a little sore it helps to run them under cold water, or as was the case with me one evening, in a cooler full of ice and water (though only for a couple of seconds). It seems to cool any swelling and relax the muscles, and feels really good

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've heard other pros say this AW, altho I personally have never done it.

Quote:

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if I warm up on a pad, for 10-20 minutes before playing a gig, (especially on hard-playing gigs!) I play with so, so, SO much less tension in my body--especially my hands, than when I don't. I also find that stretching helps me immensely as well

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AbsoLUTEly.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 16, 2004 01:32 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

If my muscles burn when I'm practicing or playing, it just means I'm building muscle and
strength. I don't consider it pain. If I start to burn, I continue and HOLD that burning
sensation until I?m reasonably satisfied or tired... This (to me) is a fundamental of
building chops.

But...

If I get a numb, tingly, sharp or stabbing feeling somewhere then I know I'm doing
something wrong.

Often I find that the mental part of learning and growing can be as painful as the physical.
I read somewhere once that Bill Evans said that playing with Miles was not only
physically painful, but emotionally and spiritually as well because he constantly pushed
him to another level.

Hey...I had to add a little Jeff on this topic, right? We're not alone here...

JP:I always have insecurities about my hands cramping up. They used to a lot, and still do once in awhile. All my fingers would cramp and shut tight. You couldn't pry them apart. When I went on the road with Steely Dan, I went nuts! Toward the end of the show my hands would be twitching. I sweat heavy so I would hold on to the sticks too tight, then I would cramp. I started shaving the lacquer off my sticks, and that helped. I have small hands and they hurt after I play because I hit so hard. It's just something in my heart; it feels better to play hard and really kick it out. I'm always nervous before going on stage. I'll try to warm up and talk to myself and stuff, but that hasn't done a lot for me over the years. On the last tour, I finally found my groove. After every show, I soak my arms in a big bucket of ice water. It kills me at first, but then it feels great. It's the same thing baseball pitchers do. The swelling goes down. The next day I wouldn't be tight or my bones wouldn't ache. Also, for that last four years I've had sticks made where they just dip the tip and the shoulder taper in lacquer only. Nothing much slips out of my hands now.

When it comes right down to it...wisdom comes from those that do, that have paved the road over time. One thing great about MD interviews is listening to working drummers share about the craft. A Vinnie instructional DVD would be insane, and I'd like to do the interview portion--4 hours of Q&A (hey that's a good thread, questions you'ld like to ask Vinnie!). Billy Ward purposely didn't spend a lot of time on specifc grips, but discussed in general terms.

Yeah, JP's quote about soaking his arms in a buchet of ice water is right on! It's a great remedy, especially if you've been playing hard (though definitely NOT a substitute for loose, relaxed playing!).

As far as a Vinnie instructional video, it ain't gonna happen. I've asked him many times, and he just doesn't want to do it. [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img] But when I begged and pleaded with him, he seemed to leave the door about 1% open. So, who knows?

Vinnie's gonna DO it.
Keep telling ourselves. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Let's get the collective HOD vibe/aura goin' on it...we'll "covertly" VIBE him into doing it... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'm hoping he'll eventually entertain doing one, as he gets older...NTM from the "pressure" of being one of the baddest mofros out there... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Back to topic, stretching your wrists & forearms with the sticks like guys such as Rod M does is great b4 your shows, & even in between each set. Where you take hold of each end of the sticks [together, side by side] w both hands [on either end] & twist them & your wrists "backwards," or invertedly, for lack of better descriptn...or hold both sticks parallel together in front of you in 1 hand by their butt ends [at the top/thumb part of the hand, palm down], tip ends pointing out of the hand & away from your torso, & take the tip ends in the other hand & pull upwards toward you...these help stretch & loosen the wrists & forearm muscles...at first this may be a little difficult or awkward, until you get used to it...[I just knew I couldnt describe that well enough]...yeah, yeah, whatever you say, broski... \:c/

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 19, 2004 08:09 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuze..............

You a funny mofro!

[img]cool.gif[/img]