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I've been looking at e-bay and have noticed that AG made patterns for each of the girls, now for the questions:
How old are they?
Which girls are they for?
How hard are they?
Where might one find them other than e-bay?
How much did they originally sell for?
Has anyone on this board used these with any luck? I'd love to here from you.
Thank you all for looking & responding. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
I would really like to get the patterns, too! Kirsten's and Felicity's are the most interesting to me--I bid on ebay for several a couple months ago, but they ended up at outrageous prices (Kirsten's school outfit pattern sold for around $40). I've looked in the costume section of the big pattern books, but theirs look so cheesy.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The doll's patterns were in the sale section on the AG website when I bought my daughter's first doll in Sept 2002. I think they clearanced out at $9.95 each but retailed for closer to $20.Quote:
Originally posted by Monika:
I've been looking at e-bay and have noticed that AG made patterns for each of the girls, now for the questions:
How old are they?
Which girls are they for?
How hard are they?
Where might one find them other than e-bay?
How much did they originally sell for?
Has anyone on this board used these with any luck? I'd love to here from you.
Thank you all for looking & responding. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
I was able to get Kirsten & Samantha's patterns on ebay for under $15 at that time and I got Felicity's for closer to $20. I thought it was outrageous. I bought Josefina's patterns in November 2003 and was lucky to get them for under $30.
The patterns were also made for Molly and Addy. I think the major pattern chains (McCalls, Simplicity, Butterick) have patterns for most of Molly's clothes. I haven't studied Addy's clothes that closely to comment.
I've seen the patterns on half.com which is also owned by ebay, but they were more expensive.
I've sewn for over 20 years and haven't had any trouble following the patterns. There is a section in each pattern set with "sewing techniques" which is really helpful if you want to give the outfits an authentic look.
I'm not sure if Samantha's set was worth it because I've seen other patterns that are similar but Kirsten's and Felicity's are definitely unique. Felicity's Christmas Gown tried my patience the most and I finally found a ribbon trim and dyed it to match because folding the ribbons was a major pain.
I keep all the patterns uncut and in a fire-safe filing box. I traced the patterns so if I lose a piece I can go back and retrace one. I've already had to retrace more than one so I'm glad I thought to keep them that way.
AG also made patterns for girl-sized outfits to match but these sell for $15 and up and I have always been able to find a dress pattern close enough to satisfy my daughter.
I also found that the International Wardrobe book for dolls (Joan Hinds is the author, I think) has some Hispanic outfits (Brazil comes to mind) that I used to make some outfits for Josefina. The book was in my local library and I was able to trace the patterns.
Have fun sewing. Hopefully I haven't bored you with my wordy response.
I have an unopened set of Felicity's patterns for sale - my first and only experience with e-Bay found me the "proud" winner of not one, but two simultaneous auctions for the patterns, and of course I was obligated to pay for both.
The pattern if for Felicity's shift, brocade purse and handkerchief, laced jacket, petticoat and mob cap (her school outfit), Christmas gown and petticoat, pinner cap and two stomachers, and night shift and lappet cap.
I would be delighted to sell the unopened set for what I paid for it - $25 US - and I'll cover the cost of postage. If you want insurance, I'd ask you to cover that. Let me know!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dang how smart is that.......to trace them.......I love it!Quote:
Originally posted by Michigan Mom:
I keep all the patterns uncut and in a fire-safe filing box. I traced the patterns so if I lose a piece I can go back and retrace one. I've already had to retrace more than one so I'm glad I thought to keep them that way.
SA~
Why not photocopy them. Staples for example makes copies on large size paoer.
Jeanie, I think I misunderstood this thread! The patterns I am looking for are the ones AG made for people [img]redface.gif[/img]
Warning for new seamstresses: these patterns are for advanced sewers and were advertised as such when American Girl made and sold them. I've been sewing very seriously for over a year now (boy are my arms tired! [img]wink.gif[/img] ) and still have problems following American Girl patterns. Since the clothes are made to *just* barely fit in the bodice and waist and are a little bit on the fancy side, and even more so because you have to inset Velcro into the sleeve cuffs, they are pretty complicated. I think their instructions are easier to follow than professional patterns (such as the ones available from fabric stores), BUT the piecing together is a little more complicated.
I made Kirsten's school dress and shawl today, and thought it would be easy as pie since I've been sewing so long, but I still had trouble. It ended up looking okay, but not as good as clothes from patterns I have followed from other companies. That being said, in the hands of an experienced seamstress, clothing made from these patterns rivals American Girl!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
I don't remember American Girl making full-sized patterns for people, though.
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ February 28, 2004 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I remember seeing quite a bunch of them in various girls' sizes on eBay just after the beginning of the year. I had a lot of "stuff" going on right about that same time, and didn't pay much attention. I sincerely apologize for not bringing them to the attention of this group.Quote:
Originally posted by Melissa:
I don't remember American Girl making full-sized patterns for people, though.
[img]redface.gif[/img]
Are they official patterns? I'm a long-time collector and don't remember there ever being any patterns for girls. My mom would have bought and sewn Molly ones. If they are pre-1989 I would have missed them, though.
I believe the pattern envelopes said Pleasant Company on the front. I don't know if the auction descriptions said what year they were published. I know they came in three girls'-size patterns (I think 3-4-5, 6-7-8, and 10-12). I remember seeing Molly's school jumper, Felicity's Rose Garden (Meet) dress and school dress, and Samantha's Meet dress and school dress. I think Sam's and Kirsten's birthday dresses were there too. Sorry I am so fuzzy about this. [img]tongue.gif[/img] There was just one dress per pattern envelope.
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ February 28, 2004 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Jeanette M. ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL how funny is that! I thought you were taling about doll ones too!Quote:
Originally posted by Lametta:
Jeanie, I think I misunderstood this thread! The patterns I am looking for are the ones AG made for people [img]redface.gif[/img]
Ever looked throught he patterns at the thrift stores to find them? I have seen some in there.
SA~
I remember seeing those. I hoped that I kept them in my "Watching" file, but I didn't. They did look pretty officially PC to me, although I didn't remember seeing them before that.
Joy
Yes...Pleasany compant DID carry the patterns for girls. I was always going to buy some....sigh....
As far as the difficulty...Melissa...One thing that I do, is put the cuffs on, and just sew a seam where the velcro should be. I have never had any problems doing that. I HATE velcro, so I don't want any more of it than necessary!
I like the PC patterns, but I hardly ever follow ANY pattern completely. I always change something. Partially because of sewing for a doll company for so many years. We never got directions, just had to figure out the easiest and best way to construct whatever we were doing.
I love sewing, and I REALLY love a challenge. If you don't mind the dresses taking a while, or being kind of putzy, I would go ahead and try one. When I was teaching myself to sew, I was talked into this really elaborate Halloween costume by my son. It took me two weeks! I just broke each step down into one little project...(much the way I learn a complicated piano piece.) Once I completed each step, I would just sit there and think, WOW! How fun is this!
It snowed buckets that Halloween, and he had to wear snow pants and a jacket over the top of it! The head piece was all that showed, but we had to keep brushing the snow off of him!
[img]tongue.gif[/img]
You know what I wish someone on Ebay would do?
I wish they would sell photocopies of the patterns. For part of my birthday present this year [img]graemlins/present.gif[/img] I'm getting several vintage doll patterns (for cloth/rag dolls from the 30s, 40s, and 50s) Some of these patterns are mint orginals but many are good photocopies. There are many sellars on Ebay who sell quality photocopies of these vintage patterns for $3.25-$8.00 a pattern. It would be nice if they did sell copies of the Pleasant Company patterns because that way many more of us could afford them. Maybe if I wish hard enough it might happen. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Cynthia -
I'm no expert in copyright law, but I would assume that the copyright that Pleasant Company had on the patterns is still in effect.
I think with the older patterns, once the copyright has expired, that it is "legal" to photocopy them, since they are no longer being made or copyright protected.
I have copies of all the old Chatty Cathy patterns, which I obtained off of e-bay. There are several folks on e-bay who sell copies of old patterns as a business.
Linda
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ February 29, 2004 11:07 PM: Message edited by: LindaL ]</font>
Opps! [img]redface.gif[/img] Do I feel foolish! Sorry folks, I hadn't even thought of that one but I'll bet dollars to donuts you're right. Oh well, it would have been a neat idea. [img]confused.gif[/img]
Linda is right...it's illegal to photocopy and sell anything that is copyrighted. If people are really doing this they could get in big legal trouble unless the copyright has been signed over to them and filed in their name--which isn't likely. A typical copyright lasts for 50 years after the death of whoever filed it (and can be renewed). If it's a company, then the copyright would very likely still be in effect. If it's a name-brand item or pattern (most are) it would also be protected under trademark law.
For example, I have a really old Raggedy Ann and Andy pattern that I wish I could share--it's so much nicer than the ones you see offered today--but both of these characters are still under trademark. It would be illegal for me to reproduce anything that has a trademark owned by another company.
Since Pleasant Company didn't disappear 50 years ago and has not let their copyrights expire, the patterns would still be protected under copyright. Since the characters have active trademarks, these items would be protected under both copyright and trademark laws. With both infractions, people who are actively selling legally protected patterns could get fined hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Chances are a company would not go after an individual since it isn't a big corporation infringing, but you never know. It might be a good idea to drop a note to the people selling them and let them know about copyright law--we don't want them to get in trouble! [img]eek.gif[/img]
[Sorry about that, Cynthia! I was typing my response as you typed yours. [img]redface.gif[/img] ]
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ February 29, 2004 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font>
There is nothing wrong or illegal about making photocopies, as long as you do not sell them or profit by them in any way. For instance, if you copy the patterns and then make clothes that you would sell, that would be illegal; but if you use patterns you have copied to make things for your own use or to give away, that is definitely within the law. [img]smile.gif[/img]
These laws got drilled into our heads in several different music ed classes I took in college - so much music gets illegally copied these days! [img]graemlins/thumbs_down.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just thought I would add....with the new laws it is even worse.....Since Disney was having a cow about Mickey Mouse becomming "public domain" That new 50 year law can also be extended by a company or authors direct relations.Quote:
Originally posted by Melissa:
A typical copyright lasts for 50 years after the death of whoever filed it (and can be renewed). If it's a company, then the copyright would very likely still be in effect. If it's a name-brand item or pattern (most are) it would also be protected under trademark law.
<font color="#020176"><font size="1">[ February 29, 2004 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font></font>
So, I doubt that the patterns will ever be allowed to "legally" be copied for sale. Bummer hu? It would have been cool to have had a photo copied version of these patterns [img]smile.gif[/img]
SA~
I wonder if enough people contacted American Girl, if they would re-release the patterns? I can't imagine it costs them that much to print and it can't take up too much room to store them in a warehouse.
It seems so unfair!! The company (PC/AG) refuses to make these any more so that we can buy them, and it seems that it refuses to allow anyone to copy them and buy/sell them. It's like the troll sitting on his pot of gold.
I had always thought that if something was discontinued and unavailable by any other means, that it was ok to make copies of it. Is that not true? If not, it seems to me that it should be true, even for selling, because otherwise it really does seem unfair.
Joy
Joy, a lot of people have copyrighted things that will never be published or see the light of day. For example, I copyrighted a novel that I'm sure will never be published. People can also copyright a group of photos or artwork to use as a "portfolio" when looking for a job. This won't ever be published, but it is nevertheless protected from being copied by someone.
Why this gets so fuzzy is because the American government isn't going to come after you if you infringe on a company's rights. The company itself has to come after you with a lawsuit. This means they have to (1) find out about it somehow and (2) decide you're a big enough threat to their profit to spend lawyer and court fees on. Usually that's why so many people get by with it: they either don't get caught or aren't perceived as a big enough threat.
This site has some helpful information on copyright:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
You can also read the official copyright website here:
http://www.copyright.gov/
[I can't get the site to work, but usually when I post that a site isn't working it's up the next day. [img]smile.gif[/img] ]
Joy, I totally understand why you think this isn't fair. American Girl has set up a "supply and demand" case on eBay. Since supply is low and demand is high, the patterns can go for a LOT of money, making them unavailable to the mainstream. It really isn't fair. In fact, I will admit that we have shared with friends--my mom borrowed Samantha's patterns from a friend of hers, and a friend shared Felicity's Christmas gown with me. This was before I closely looked more into pattern copyright protections and now I feel somewhat guilty. It makes me wonder if this type of thing is why American Girl discontinued the patterns, though. If everyone was circulating patterns, then the "reused" patterns were keeping people from buying the official outfits OR the patterns. It would remove American Girl from the equation completely.
The good news is that other companies sell patterns that can be used to make very similar outfits, with some minor changes. My mom has adapted patterns to make things like Molly's after school outfit and Addy's pajamas, and a pinafore dress for my Anne of Green Gables doll. I'm going to make Addy's birthday outfit from a Butterick pattern (only I can't find brown ricrac anywhere!) So don't give up hope if you can't find them. Lately the big-name companies have had two pattterns for 1930s clothes, for example, that look very Kit-like. [img]smile.gif[/img] And the patterns are so much cheaper if you wait for sales..."one" pattern in a professional pattern is usually actually several patterns, all for $1. The one I got is six outfits, meaning each pattern was under 17 cents!
Cynthia, I'm going to be digging out the Raggedy Ann/Andy pattern some time soon since I promised my mom I would make her Raggedy Andy for her birthday. I'll try to see what year it is, just out of curiosity. I think it is from between the 1930s-1940s, but I can't remember for sure. Ours has been somewhat a family heirloom passed down from my grandma to my mom, and then finally used by me...but so far no kids to make them for! It's very crumbly and difficult to use. Did you know that the books are being reprinted, unabridged, by a publishing company?
I just wanted to add that, Monika, I totally understand your frustration with not being able to get the patterns. We also used them due to financial reasons, and I feel like with American Girl discontinuing them, they are somewhat shutting out some of their customers who may have less "fun money." The patterns paid for themselves with the creation of the very first outfit...they were definitely economical and a great deal.
If anyone does want to start a little letter campaign to American Girl to ask them whether or not they will bring back the patterns, I am all for it and would be happy to also write a letter to them. I would personally like patterns for at least Kit. My bet is they have a good reason for discontinuing them, though. Have any of you written and asked? If not, I'd be happy to drop an e-mail.
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ March 01, 2004 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font>
Melissa,
Its funny you should mention Raggedy Ann and Andy in your post since I am currently on a big Raggedy kick. [img]smile.gif[/img] My husband is trying to win two auctions for vintage Raggedy Ann and Andy patterns (mint, not photocopies) as part of my birthday gift. They are the from 1977 and 1978 (the latter is my birth year [img]wink.gif[/img] ) and are the 15,20,25 inch pattern and the 36 inch pattern. I, too, think the earlier patterns more closely resemble the pictures in Johnny Gruelle's wonderful books. I do not like the new Simplicity one. As for the pattern photocopies, I don't think the sellers are in too much danger (at least the ones my father-in-law bid and won for my gift) as they were mail order patterns from companies that no longer exist. I will have to see if my grandmother can find the P.C. Samantha patterns she bought (One year she made them for my Sam doll.) and see if she will make copies for me. (No one read that right? Lol. [img]wink.gif[/img] ) I guess I have a touch of the rebel at heart. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Cynthia, I looked at the Raggedy Ann pattern today. Unfortunately, the publication date crumbled off the pattern, but I can read "McCall 820." It's the one with the green cape...you're a good guesser! I really like your idea of copying it. Just handling it caused more to crumble off the pattern.
I don't know if the whole Raggedy Ann series will be republished, but I also sure hope so! I first discovered Raggedy Ann as a little girl when we were living with my grandparents for a few months while my grandma was dying from diabetes. While we were there my mom found her old childhood Raggedy Ann book in her parents' home. I love vinyl dolls, too, but there is just something so special about a beloved, raggedy old rag doll with a special candy heart. And even something special about rag dolls in general.
Have you seen the Betsy McCall doll pattern (McCall 3423)? She wears clothes from the '50s. I have the pattern but haven't made the doll yet. I plan on adapting it to make her cousin Barbara. I'm going to see if patterns for the normal, vinyl Betsy McCall will work for the cloth Betsy since the pattern didn't come with many clothing options. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if this is a reprint or a totally new doll. She *looks* old, though! What a neat idea to get all those patterns. It will be fun but also nostalgic.
Monika, here are a couple things I forgot in my last post (because I almost wrote a college-length essay there! [img]wink.gif[/img] )
>Where might one find them other than e-bay?
Although these aren't the official patterns, the http://www.mccall.com/ site has craft pages of patterns. I like to go on here since at the pattern store you can't always squeeze your way in to get the catalog you want! There is one pattern by Vogue that looks very similar to Kit's coat and somewhat similar to her pajamas. Here are some patterns that might work to look similar to American Girl items:
Kirsten
Vogue 7564
Kit
McCall 4336
Vogue 7565
Vogue 7514
Vogue 7486
Molly
McCall 4066 (raincoat, boots, and hat)
>How much did they originally sell for?
When they first came out (my oldest catalog is only from 1991, though), the patterns were $18 each.
And if you try a harder pattern, don't get discouraged! I really like Jenny's idea of doing things bit by bit as little individual projects. I'm the type of person who always rushes through patterns, and that is probably one reason I have a hard time--I end up having to rip out seams and redo everything. [img]redface.gif[/img]
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ March 01, 2004 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font>
Melissa,
I think its wonderful your Raggedy pattern is being passed down in your family, what a lovely traditon. [img]smile.gif[/img] Does the patern include Ann's green cape? If it does I know the pattern you are speaking of because I've seen it on Ebay (albeit a copy) I've also seen a seller who used the pattern and is selling the Ann and Andy set for $150.00! [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] If it is getting crumbly you might want to do what my mom has done with her 1960s Whinne the Pooh (sp?) pattern and trace some of the deteriorating pieces onto fresh tracing/tissue paper. (Or make photo copies for your own personal use as Jeanette mentioned!) I have checked out of the library some of the reprinted books and have put them on my birthday wishlist. I wish they would reprint the entire series, do you know if they are planning to do that? I hope so as I'd like to read the whole series. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
I was looking at the doll patterns on the Simplicity website the other day, and found a long-retired pattern that had been re-introduced! It is one that I have had in my pattern collection since the 60's! [img]smile.gif[/img] It's a baby doll pattern #5215. I'm not sure what made them bring it back again, but maybe writing to the pattern companies and asking about some of the favorite old patterns will bring similar results!
Jeanette, those are adorable patterns...they might even work for popular present-day dolls like My Twinn Babies, Apple Valley, and others since they are in several sizes up to 22". Thanks for pointing them out!
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ March 02, 2004 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font>
I have my own theory about why AG has discontinued the AGCollection patterns.
I believe that it was after the Mattel change that the decision to discontinue the doll patterns was made. (The girl patterns disappeared long before that, I think). I think that that decision was made post-Pleasant, and that it was in the same vein as many of the other post-Pleasant decisions have been. She was very interested in helping her fans and customers, and especially those in the 7-12 age range, participate in the play and creativity.
She had craft projects in every doll's line. They have all been retired. She had patterns for girls to make their own clothes for their historical dolls. Those have been retired. She had blank books for girls to write their own stories for the AGOT dolls, with suggestions for how to do it. Those have been retired.
The bottom line for Mattel, when it comes to PC/AG, is, and has always been, the money. At least some of the main bottom lines for Pleasant was the educational value and quality and hands-on involvement and continuity. I think that all Mattel sees, when it looks at the patterns, is competition from its own customers. I think that its fear is that if you buy the pattern you won't be buying the ready-made outfits that you can make from the pattern. I think that its theory is that if you can't find a pattern you will give in and buy the expensive ready-made outfit from them.
I always felt that it was so very classy of Pleasant to provide those patterns. It said to me that she didn't feel threatened, and that providing sources for creativity for her customers and fans was more important to her than any possible losses for her on the money end of things. It also said to me that she understood that her products were out of range for some people, and that it was important to her to make a way for them to have access. This retirement says all the opposite things to me, when it comes to Mattel.
Joy
Samantha's craft projects have been recycled in
her " Friendship fun book" . Mattell made a big mistake in cancelling the patterns. They expand interest in the AGs beyond the target age. I don't know if I would have purchased Samantha or Kirsten if the patterns had not been available. Mattell was probably worried about people selling duplicate outfits to those currently produced. They could have put a notice in the patterns that clothes for sale must be made in different colors or fabrics.
I see nothing wrong in making photocopies of patterbs as long as we do not sell them. A pattern gets damaged in normal use - pin holes , rips etc. I have seen some patterns that tell you
what enlargement or decrease you need to do to make various sizes. It is no different from the back up disk for our own use that we are allowed to do with computer programs.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Taffy said is totally true. I became an American Girl collector as a child; although most of my AG products were and are home-made, the Knitting Nellie (Molly's craft) was something I definitely wanted to have! Getting completely "caught up" in the experience, I would read Molly's books while working on my Knitting Nellie. My favorite book to read while using it, of course, was Molly Learns a Lesson. [img]smile.gif[/img] (I won't say why in case some haven't read it yet.) And for anyone who wants one, they are commonly available in craft stores. The AG one was better quality plastic from my experience, though.Quote:
Originally posted by Taffy Cheerful:
My view is that the girls in the stories were all from times when girls were expected to able to sew and do crafts. Providing the patterns and the craft kits was yet another way of involving the readers in the total experience of the American Girl (as depicted in the stories).
However, I'm not convinced that the patterns were for girls. They were always advertised as being for experienced seamstresses. I can't imagine little girls sewing the dresses unless they are really talented.
<font color="#020176" size="1">[ March 05, 2004 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Melissa ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I totally agree. The patterns are tricky and, as many of us have discovered, there is considerable variation in the chubbiness of the AGs, which makes the effort even more difficult.Quote:
Originally posted by Melissa:
However, I'm not convinced that the patterns were for girls. They were always advertised as being for experienced seamstresses. I can't imagine little girls sewing the dresses unless they are really talented.
That said, the patterns held out the hope that one could aspire to performing the same activities as the respective historical character even if was a dreadfully frustrating experience.
The major reason why people who have learned to sew a bit give up on the craft is that they just can't get garments to fit. The pattern industry is about as inconsistent in sizing as the whole women's fashion industry. Short of using a tool like DressShop (or DollShop) to draft to one's own particular measurements, it usually takes a lot of tweaking to get a store-bought pattern to fit properly.
AGs are more standardized in size and so the AG patterns are more likely to yield success. However, the clothing styles for the earlier historical characters have a lot of intricate details that are clearly beyond the ability of beginning sewists.
Taffy
My view is that the girls in the stories were all from times when girls were expected to able to sew and do crafts. Providing the patterns and the craft kits was yet another way of involving the readers in the total experience of the American Girl (as depicted in the stories).
Mattel is either incapable or not desirous of recognizing that the AG experience is (or rather was) an "experience", one in which the reader could become totally immersed. To further that immersion, AG produced all of the add-ons that are now discontinued, including the patterns, the craft kits, the scenes and settings folios, etc.
Will Mattel ever release the patterns again? I seriously doubt it. Mattel would view the patterns as providing customers with the ability to avoid buying items manufactured and marketed by AG. This is, of course, a boneheaded view, but so are many of the things the intellectual midgets who are running Mattel have come up with...
Taffy