Can Virgil groove??

HODers... Can Virgil groove... [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img]

I am pretty skeptical by nature, well, I remain skeptical until I come accross evidences leading me to a change of mind. I've had biases on Virgil. At least I can say that I did attend one of his clinic years ago, so my opinion was shaped by that event as well as other stuff, mainly Clinic Boot Legs and bits of Planet X.

That Lead me to write comments on HOD in the past that caused me to suffer the wrath of our Virgil Advocate [img]wink.gif[/img]

But seriously, thanks Digital for the heads up on this Joel Hoekstra CD The Moon is Falling. In it, I hear a disciplined Virgil playing within the context of what the music is calling for. Yep, he shuts up and lays it down solid. And I am impressed [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Impressed enough to let you guys know!!

Some awesome solo too, I love how he plays with the pulse, stretching and holding back. That's one aspect I love of Vinnie's solos. All his accent are so downright MEANINGFUL!! Only someone with a solid as a brick sense of Time can pull with confidence what Virgil does on that CD. And his 200 bpm double bass chops?? Barely heard any of it on that CD, if at all...

Here's some short samples...

http://www.joelhoekstra.com/samples/Euphoria.mp3

http://www.joelhoekstra.com/samples/...eDangerous.mp3

http://www.joelhoekstra.com/samples/Snoop.mp3

http://www.joelhoekstra.com/samples/...tAtParties.mp3

http://www.joelhoekstra.com/samples/Kaleidoscope.mp3

I am dying to hear virgil's interpretation of Swing playing standards, or hear him play ballads with brushes... I somehow sense that I may not be disappointed... Virgil's not only an awesome drummer, but a great musician too!! (I can't believe I wrote that... [img]wink.gif[/img] )

Glad you dug the disc BeatHit, I thought you would. It sheds alot of light on Virgil's abilities just beyond EXTREME drumming. His command of modulation is Amazing. He as you said really messes with the time pushing and pulling but it always grooves and enhances what the others are playing. I think Virg pretty much does what he wants to do when he chooses to do it. He just thrives on pushing the limits for the most part, but this disc and others show profiency beyond the Ultra complex drumming. By the way it looks like the Donati/Gambale/Fierabracci disc will be released
in July. You gotta grab that one. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Take it easy, Dig

Cool... How about Bunny Brunnel L.A. Zoo Revisited? I Just checked it out on AudiphileImports. Led Boots is on it and it KICKS!

I played in a couple of bands with Joel Hoekstra, a jobbing band and a recording project. He's an awesome guitarist and a very funny, wacky guy. I played a track of Joel's generally unknown first record.

First, I dig Virgil quite a bit and sung his praises to many long before anyone knew of him. I met him first in 1994 at the NAMM show and he was very cool and seemed flattered someone recognized and thought he was amazing. So this isn't intended as a dig against him but is meant to clarify the recording situation.

I don't know how the third album (Moon) was done but on the second one, Virgil played to very minimal scratch guitar tracks, enough to let him know the tunes and form, and Joel and many other people added their final parts afterwards - so while Virgil played some great stuff, how it actually fit was determined by the other players overdubs complementing him, not him complementing the music. Economics primarily dictated this recording method. Joel lives in NYC now and the rough demos were sent to TJ Hemerich in LA for Virg and Rick Fierbracci to add their parts to.

BTW, Virgil did some other outstanding alternate solos that didn't make the disc.

Brad

The drumming and music in general on the Moon Is Falling compared to Undefined is quite abit different at times. I think there was alot more meat for Virgil to work with on the Moon recording. I know Premium members over at Virgil's site will get to see some of the Session highlights for the Moon Is Falling recording. I believe this is coming up fairly soon.

Dig

Quote:

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I am dying to hear virgil's interpretation of Swing playing standards, or hear him play ballads with brushes...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...... I'm not!!

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think the recording methods for both discs were the same, once again due to economics, but Virgil may have taken a few more liberties on the new one as we all know he's quite apt to do. I sat in on some of the overdub sessions for the second disc and it was cool to be able to hear Virgil's tracks by themselves.

Dazzler, I agree about the brush and swing standards thing. It's not his bag, and that's fine by me. We all choose a musical path.

For those interested in the latest, "Moon" check out the next couple issues of Drum!

Brad

which would you recommend i buy....Undefined or The moon is falling??

I'm one to believe that he
can do just about whatever
wants, if he puts his mind
to it. He's that gifted.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Skill-wise I totally agree with you Peter, but temperament, taste, restraint, vary widely and are a reflection of personality, etc.

I haven't heard any tune where Virgil chose to remain in the background. He very well may have, I've heard he's done pop gigs but I haven't heard that stuff. He's definitely and in-your-face type player. I find a great deal in his playing to inspire me to push my technique further but I think jazz requires one to choose their moments without controlling the situation. There's a lot more give than take.

It'd be nice to think Virgil has that in him, but he seems to be picking the Weckl path of playing in situations that allow him to do his thing most of the time. Vinnie, on the other hand does those choppy gigs, but also plays in situation where he has less of a say as to what he plays. Situations, sessions and gigs where he takes direction from others and sometimes just lays down a nice tasteful groove-ala Sting, Faith Hill and some of the Christian artists he records with.

In rock/fusion, especially progressive rock/fusion, that choppy thing is part and parcel of the genre. While it may be technically very challenging it may not challenge a drummers musicality to the same level.

In jazz, one has to have the disposition to listen quietly, often without offering much if it's not necessary. Plus, jazz obviously has a huge vocabulary that one has to immerse oneself in to play authentically. God knows, lots of critics and jazz drummers think Weckl, Steve Smith, etc., can't play real jazz. God knows Smith has immersed himself in the history of jazz but that's no guarantee of anything. Have you guys read the Jazz Times review of Steve's "Buddy's Buddies: Live at Ronnie Scott's" where they describe his and Baron Browne's "stilted Swing"? I think if Virgil took up jazz, he'd probably do it like more fusion-oriented drummers. That's fine, I suppose, but I think Virgil's fine doing what he knows and likes.

Personally, for real jazz my money is on people like Erskine, Stewart, Terri Lynn, Tain, and a thousand others.

My 2 cents. Actually, that was pretty long, so I guess it's more like a Quarter.

Brad

I haven't heard all of Moon yet, I have it but I've got other transcriptions which control my listening time. What I've heard it's more aggressive drumming-wise that Undefined. Depends on what you like. Both are good.

You all remember that he studied with Philly Joe when he was 19 and Philly recommended him for the Bill Evans gig. Signals got crossed and he never made it to the audition. That is a pretty good recommendation coming from Philly. That was at age 19 none the less. I would guess that he could swing his ass off if he was in the situation.

Dazz...

I stick to what I wrote: "I somehow sense that I may not be disappointed"

He may not choose to do it, but I feel he's got enough musicianship to pull it off. I am just an open-minded skeptic, that's all... [img]wink.gif[/img]

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

If you could hear him with Southern Sons(Journey type band) or Tina Arena(pop) it would shock you how "Not In Your Face" his playing was. There was VERY little I will show you what I can do mentality. You would never believe it was Virg at all, other than the very minimal double bass excursion here or there or playing with the time, from here and there. You can count his extended fills on one hand. And yeah Philly highly recommended him for the jazz gig at that age. But V is right it is not his desire for the most part anymore or nature just to sit back and do the "normal" thing. But like Peter say's he could do whatever he wanted to do, his mentality is nothing will stand in my way if I do not want it to.

And Palmerlouie I would go for the "Moon Is Falling" first but Undefined is Great also no doubt. Both are very balanced between just laying it down and times of tearing it up, if you know what I mean. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Dig

I hadn't heard the Philly Joe story before. That's very interesting. I think Virgil is an awesome player and he could probably do anything he puts his talents and mind to. It's just hard to picture, if you know what I mean.

Virgil holds back a lot in that Tina Arena gig, he does what he should in that gig. I heard that Virgil used to have a lot more feel in his younger days, dont take that the wrong way, but over the years his headspace has changed, but as Peter stated, he could do what ever he puts his mind to, like most people could, but he has quite a dicipline for his art...!

I just got my new issue of Drum! July/August 2004. It's an issue dedicated to Prog Rock.

I wrote a feature on Progressive Rock drumming with excerpts I transcribed from many different drummers. There are two excerpts from Virgil, tunes off Joel Hoekstra's The Moon is Falling, for those of you who are interested. The article starts on page 80. There's a lot of other cool info on this style of drumming and the drummers in the magazine. Check it out!

Brad

The data is out there...IMO, all you need is one recording, SYI from OTV (Serious Young Insects). This is what got me into OTV, not Virgil...he was part of OTV...the MUSIC is great!

As for non-progressive, in your face drumming, check out Freakhouse. I saw him play with Bunny Brunell at the Potato and three days later with Freakhouse...totally different styles of playing. He reminded me of Dave Grohl with only about a 30 second flash of "Virg" at the end of one tune.

As far as swing...jazz, there's plenty of times where Virg gets into it with Bunny. Maybe I've seen more than most because live they get into this on jams, especially when Weingart is on keys (Patrice Russin is excellent as well).

To say Virgil can't cop playing w/brushes or swing is just stupid (not that this was stated directly). He can't play brushes like Ed Thigpen or swing like Papa Jo, but he can play it good enough for about 97% of the listening audience. The ?purists? will always criticize, ragging on Smith or whomever, and I like that btw, keeps the genre pure. If he did a gig and a song called for this type of playing, he'd nail it. The man's a professional!

I do find it interesting that doubt still lurks regarding his abilities. Two types of doubt come to mind;

* The first is comparing Virg (or another drummer) to a particular drumming style piloted by one's favorite drummer?if I judged the way Virg played a shuffle like Porcaro every time he started to play one. The reverse of this is to be so obsessed with Virg (like a friend of mine) that whenever someone else plays, it?s always compared to Virg. It?s very hard to let go of that which we hold close.

** The second is thinking because someone plays so convincingly in one style (progressive) that they can?t crossover to another in convincing manner. It?s almost like many don?t want to accept certain players are that dedicated & skilled. Weckl took some flack when he started getting into Latin stuff?it all sounded good to me. Again, purists criticized. I recently found out the drummers on the movie, ?Drumline? where Keltner & Mason. If I was hiring for that movie, my first thought would not be Keltner or Mason?I would go for the best DCI players out there. I just found that interesting?I?m sure a lot of it was getting seasoned pros in the studio, etc.

Virg grooves, but it's true, he seems to be taking a more Weckl like career path, doing his own thing over Vinnie's choices.

I tell ya what I'd like to see, Dennis Chambers or Weckl play an OZZIE gig...all out rock n' roll like Tommy Aldrich--like Bill would say, "Just because I could." That's just me!

I have "Undefined" and it has become one of my favorite albums. It showcases some of Virgil's abilities, but he also plays for the music more so than in a Planet X context. Hoekstra's music has a very contemporary sound to it, but IMO appeals to those who still dig the "Joe Satriani" style from 10 or 15 years ago (like me!)

I have tremendous respect for Virgil's technique and abilities, but his groove always felt a little cold to me. He seems to throw in a lot of polyrhythmic stuff just for the sake of doing so. When he plays a simpler groove, I think he literally beats the life out of it. I can hear the powerful backbeat, but there's not much character to the sound.

I was listening to Narada Michael Walden on Jeff Beck's "Wired" yesterday, and there was definitely a display of power, chops, odd times, and technique, but there was much more emotion in the groove. The backbeats were powerful, but it sounded like a stick hitting a snare drum--not a sledge hammer hitting a sidewalk.

Virgil's work ethic and dedication are very inspiring, but I don't know that anyone can acquire Gadd's or Porcaro's pocket simply through practice and hard work.

Very cool Vdrummer I will for sure check out the new Drum issue. Let us also know how the Planet X gig goes when they come to town.

And Mja61, I dig Undefined too. But you have to check out The Moon Is Falling. I think you will find that his Groove is warmer than on Undefined.
It is almost like after the First project, he just became more accustomed to Joel's style of music and everything just gel's much better even though Undefined is Fantastic on it's own. If you can try and get ahold of Virgil's work with Southern Son's or some of Virgil's work with Aussie singer Jon Stevens(last singer for INXS.)
Very good stuff.


Dig

I'd love to see Virgil in a context other than his drum videos or Planet X (though I dig them) but he never plays my area unless my drum shop brings him to town! So far we've had PX before once, and him alone a few times in clinics and masterclasses. I'd love to see Freakhouse or Virg with Bunny Brunel, both would be cool. But I'd especially like to see him with BB. I'm glad to hear Virgil plays simpler in other situations, and is taking steps not to typecast himself.

I don't see Weckl or Chambers accepting let alone doing an Ozzie type gig, though Vinnie has with the Billion Dollar Babies tribute to A.Cooper and the upcoming Megadeth release.

PocketPlayer: You've seen Virgil play brushes? That's cool. I'd love to see it. It would show a more sensitive side to his playing than many have seen from him. Thanks for recommending the SYI OTV disc, I'll get it.

mja61: Narada Michael Walden is one of my all time favorite drummers. Tons of fire, great ideas and chops. His playing on Led Boots off Wired was incredible. I've always believed that tune was where Vinnie got his approach to Sting's odd-time tunes. I transcribed some of him for the Drum! article I mentioned earlier.

Digital Man: I'm looking forward to the PX gig and the masterclass the day before even more. Virg is one of my favorite drummers. Plus, a bunch of good players will be in the masterclass.

Brad

We have these types of 'debates/comparisons' frequently here from T2T.

I like the analogy that Roy Cam gave on 1 of those a good while back, about how he likes both the 'old-school' swing-feel guys AWA the contempo ones like Tony, leading up to Weckl, Vinnie, Covington, Heredia, Wertico [i realize some of these have stark contrasts AW]. & I understand perfectly well what is meant by preferring ing the swing of Elvin, Deej, Philly or BStewart, Tain, JHamilton, etc instead...

Some cats sound like they bridge a little of both feels/worlds [in certain ways], like some of my faves Gadd, Smith, Gottlieb, Erskine, or Will Kennedy.

It would prob be safe to say that if i heard Virg swing, it'd prob def sound to me to be moreso in the Vinnie/Weckl/Chambers veign than the Elvin, Philly, Blakey veign...but i might be surprised on that one...but if Philly qualified him, then he def saw something in there 'just below the surface.'

I like an idea/'qualification' from Elvin the best: Don't judge or 'stack' anything against something else; rather, judge it according to itself & its own merits.

If i hear something that slams me, wether it's pocket, 100 mph chops with Steel Pulse Time, breathy or greasy groove, funked-'at, slow ballad with deeeep feel, or whatever; if it hits me, it hits me. I don't listen to Tony & say to myself, "But it's not Gadd"...or to Billy, & say, "but it isn't Weckl"...likewise, I don't listen to Toto & say, "gee, it isn't Coltrane," or to the CCEB & say, "it ain't Steely," or to Meshuggah & say, "it isnt Pantera [or heck, classical, FTM]...to me, that is an absurd way to look at something; a very narrow-minded, tunnel-visioned, 'in-the-box' kind of thinking, where one is constantly comparing, unless it's for the learning & understanding process, which is more of a pro-active 'potpourri' type of thing...but I never compare jazz to pop in order to elevate one over the other, or say "latin isn't jazz, & none of it's fusion" [which means a blend of elements of any or all the above], but rather, maybe just simply to find 'the ties that bind,' & leave it at that. Quite frankly, I like WAY too many styles & genres to waste my time & brainpower focusing on this type of thing...i don't prefer to be one of the "[insert my pref'd style here] police!"

If i want to listen to the rhythmical wizardry of PX, then I don't pop it on & say it sux cause it ain't Steely with Gadd. Both are extremely good stuff for WHAT THEY ARE in & of themselves.

That's why I like it all - from Elvin & Deej to Weckl, Virg, Dennis, & Vinnie [AWA all the above & the many others out there, 'famous' & otherwise] - ALL GREAT drummers in & of themselves, in their own right.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 08:52 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

If i want to listen to the rhythmical wizardry of PX, then I don't pop it on & say it sux cause it ain't Steely with Gadd. Both are extremely good stuff for WHAT THEY ARE in & of themselves.
That's why I like it all - from Elvin & Deej to Weckl, Virg, Dennis, & Vinnie [AWA all the above & the many others out there, 'famous' & otherwise] - ALL GREAT drummers in & of themselves, in their own right.

That's why you're FUSE! [img]cool.gif[/img]
Unfortunately, many (probably not in this forum) do not think this way...in fact, many simply do not. Greg B talks of his lesson(s) w/Tony W. and how Tony trashed Ringo leaving Greg in the role as apologist for Ringo.
A lot of it is ignorance where many are simply not cognizant of other drummers outside their "box." You would be surprised how many very good drummers are not aware of "others"...this forum is an education center for the most part and those who frequent often seem to have a thirst for drum knowledge, which often times discusses the various styles of drummers. If it was not for HOD, my drum thirst would be satisfied mostly by Modern Drummer and various internet interviews. There would not be the in-depth discussions we get into from time-to-time.
That one thread many moons ago (this will age me as a HOD'er) on the BRII tape, breaking down Weckl, Vinnie, & Gadd...I think there was around 40 posts on that thread. It was a tremendous education on the differences between each drummer as each person stated why they liked what. The thread just grew into this monster. There have been many monster threads over the years and this educates. We also have a world-wide audience here, giving a European perspective. Great stuff really.

Oh...speaking of the man himself...
Planet X Dates
July 7th 2004 - LAMA - Hollywood, CA
July 8th 2004 - Musician's Insitute - Hollywood, CA
July 9th 2004 - Baked Potato - Hollywood, CA
July 11th, 2004 - NEARfest 2004 - Bethlehem, PA
July 13th 2004 - Durty Nellies - Palatine, IL

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 05:57 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

I hears ya L&C, Pocket, m' man. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

It's all good, really; I don't let it get me 'in a tizzy' much anymore. [img]wink.gif[/img]

When I was coming up in drumming [still am, really; never-ending evolution], I didn't really care for Ringo; all i was interested in was that in your face, kind of obvious drumming from, say, a Neil. But now, when I look back at what R did w the Beatles, & i tell you, I feel like Gregg does about it, that it's just as viable - because those 4 guys made the Beatles - they WERE THE BEATLES. Neil's tom rolls or style wouldn't've sounded right for the Beatles - it would've ended up sounding like something else...

Personally, I could care less if Virgil can play swing like so-&-so or not [someone else]...Virg is VIRG, & I don't want VIRG to sound like Vinnie, Gadd, Weckl, Elvin, Tony, Erskine, Porcaro, or anyone else FTM...altho [& like Pete said] I too have no doubt whatsoever that, if he can't already, he could have it down well enough after a while if he just immersed himself in it for a period of time. I mean, it's not like he doesn't have the facility, technical ability, or mental imagination for it. But for now, one of the things he's mainly into is the the upper-level, prog/fusion rhythmic shredding thing. But if he can indeed swing well [prob in the contempo fusion way, more than likely], then that would REALLY floor me. But then he floors me as is.

And what he does he does well, if not BEST...For instance, I don't expect nor do i want him to be another Porcaro [or Gadd, Erskine, Hakim, Kennedy, Garibaldi, Elvin, Tony, Foster, Haynes, Campbell, Husband, Novak, Heredia, Wackerman, Stewart, Tain, Hamilton, Copeland; insert your fave kick-tail player here]. Jeff was JEFF. NO ONE can replace him [same with all the previously stated]. & JEFF would tell you that Virg is a freekin monster at what he does, & that he himself couldn't do what Virg does. He also said this of Weckl & Vinnie b4 his unfortunate & untimely departure from this world. So I says, let Virg be Virg...& enjoy it for what it is...I'm not necessarily listening to Virg w PX or OTV for classical-jazz-latin-world beat compositional enlightenment, altho some would argue otherwise [definitely rhythmically as it pertains to the drumset] & perhaps justifiably so...for that, I'll just go & listen to some 'Jackets or Metheny, or some of the master composers, or...ugetthepicture.

...& so i says, c'mon, kick my tail in some more, Virgski...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 09:04 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>