being an all round player

Steve touched on this subject in the "pics of Neils' house" topic.

Being a well rounded drummer in the business.

How far do you go at being 'well' rounded? I found this out recently when I was asked by invitation to audition for a very wellknown smooth jazz band.

I feel I can cover many styles in a respectable fashion without being off guard, but when it comes to left foot clave well that's not me and quite frankly on most of the stuff I do in the studio and live would never find a reason to use it.

But the music I was given to audition with was very 'latin' 1 tune being that there was no drums on it just perc. The band wanted drummers to give 'their' interpretation of playing it on kit. Well, that's kewl and I did give my best but after talking with the guys found out what they were really after. I did not feel bad and the guy playing after me I knew would not be doing this either, it was Tony Beard, VERY well known English studio drummer now living in NY.

The point is, in this day of drumming or any instrument I feel it's very important to be well versed and be comfortable. I think I have lost where I was going with this, Vinnie is very well rounded as a drummer, can cover it all as can peter Erskine and both of these players have proven that.......Peter has played with everyone from Steps to Steely Dan, Vinnie has played with everyone from Chick Corea, Chaka Khan, SheDaisy to Megadeth and Manson.

I respect Peart for giving the college try at playing swing, it's not him though but he went for it and he still practices even at an age and time in his life where he could just rest on where he is at as a player.

Randy, I'm curious.
Would the band be Spyro Gyra??
Since Joel is leaving...
But maybe you can't talk about it...

It all comes from the heart IMO. Guys like Vinnie, Bozzio, Tony, Cobham etc developed their style by their tastes in music and their will to *write* songs(parts) that they felt are the correct way that they should be written and interpreted according to the legacy, history of the language. In jazz, it is so common to study a composers songs to the point where your style becomes a shell of their style. Developing a groove in writing your own parts will come from the little patterns that sound really good to your ear. You may avoid them, but you'll unconciously mimic them in a lot of your music.

Developing your own style comes from WITHIN, not from forcing yourself to practice sum grooves from a book, like many do with LATIN. I am interested in many kinds of music. The interest leads me to exploring, which leads me to learn that style, as a means of further study or understanding. That's the beauty and versatility of music. Even if MOST of us could probably lay down a D & B groove, none of us would probably get close to the feel and authority of a JoJo Mayer who's being in the game for a while(example, listen to Steve Smith on the last MD Festival, YUCK!). Because we don't share the same energy and passion towards like JoJo does, we've probably won't be able to pull it off as convicingly. Even if it's all mechanics as outside listeners.

This is the way I look at it. There are people who know how to play drums, and then there are DRUMMERS. It's as simple as that. What separates those people from normal players is the heart. It's loving what you do, and putting your heart and soul and emotion into the music that you do write or study. You inject a part of yourself that no one else can see in your music, and that's what makes it stand out [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2004 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>

Well said Bozz... Definitly comes from the heart.

Developping your own voice takes a lot of work/time to achieve. Spending time practicing so you can pull what's in your head musically. Playing tons of gigs so you can apply what you've worked on within a musical context.

Practicing Latin patterns out of a book is a good start IMO, it gets your mechanic going and it helps you understand its peculiar vocabulary. Most of us did not have the chance to grow up in South America, where kids grow up hearing/listening to various well spiced Latin Rhythms.

Well, congrats on even getting asked to aud, Randman, & having the guts to go in & do it AW ;=)...I'da been just a LITTLE nervous ;=), if anything, simply because it's such a prestigious, high-prof gig... [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Yeah, us gringos didn't have quite the same luxury ;=)...i was raised in central-west FL...shoulda been Miami ;=)...

All the heavy players in town were hip to the latin stuff even way back in the early 80s...they all new it was hip sh**, the "next step" & integral link in the Weather Report - Miles etc direction, AFA "where [the] music was heading"...
That's why some of these cats like Horacio, Antonio, & even Ignacio are kickin some serious tail - they have the upbringing or exposure to the fundamental elements of the true ethnic latin feels coarsing "thru their veigns" AWA the good old American jazz/fusion...these cats are the real deal...but like Peter said, any1 can play it if they listen, study, apply, "feel," & play it enough...

I still practice new things in this genre, bit in no way shape or form am i at the level of those guys i ment'd...or near Weckl in this area, FTM [who is? ;=)]...[Weckl even calls himself a "gringo" compared to other "more latin influenced players" [img]eek.gif[/img] ;=)]....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2004 06:09 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

WOW Randy! HUGE invitation!
Spyro Gyra is a major act in jazz......and one of the wealthiest too (Is'nt Joel driving a Porsche?)
Although some of their older stuff might be considered as "smooth", I listened to their 90's stuff and it can be pretty challenging, I like it a lot!
My brother who's a fan saw them live recently and said it was somewhat closer to serious latin-funk-fusion than smooth jazz.
They are excellent musicians. Dave Samuels is simply a mallet virtuoso!! So that might tell something about you.
Do you know how they noticed you? Were there any other invited cats we might know?

As I understand it, your "roundness" lacked some latin chops like the "left foot clave". Would this stuff be already part of the common drum vocabulary? I doubt it. I think it's HIGHLY specialized stuff. I might be wrong but I doubt top "well rounded" players like Gadd, Erskine or even Vinnie to be comfortable with it. Not many players are doing it, and most of them have latin origins (El Negro, Antonio,...). It's not like Bossa Nova where you could get the basics within a couple of days of shedding. It's not even close to blowing over the samba feet. Since it's an highly syncopated phrase with no down beat, it takes LOTS of practice to get the independance. Then there's the whole FEEL thing (which may not be that natural for north americans). Now when you combine playing on top of the LF clave/RF tumbao, I think you're in for years of shedding pleausure.

I think Pedro G from the board pretty much kills this stuff. Hey Pedro!| What are your thoughts on this subject? How did you develop it? I think you have latin origins, do you think it has a lot to do with getting the feel?

Guys, you're right. What you love at heart will push you to practice some stuff. I love latin music so much that now I almost only practice cuban patterns.
I practice LF clave because I like it, but it's SO hard. I can't see the day where I'll be comfortable to groove/solo on top of it but I continue. Who knows, that might be worth it someday ... as we can see...

Good luck with everything Randy. I'm sure other BIG auditions will come for you!

Darn right, Tombo! Good post.

Quote:

---

My brother who's a fan saw them live recently and said it was somewhat closer to serious latin-funk-fusion than smooth jazz

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is more accurate, altho jazz is an underlying elem in most-if-not-all of what they do...
I think Joel took them to a whole new level, one which i embraced more readily than the older, smoother, "safer" SG...it'll be interesting to hear this new cat...can't wait to hear him, if he's replacing Joel & got the position at the auditions incldg our esteemed Mr Walker! ;=)...he's in good company, i think ;=)

Quote:

---

I think it's HIGHLY specialized stuff. I might be wrong but I doubt top "well rounded" players like Gadd, Erskine or even Vinnie to be comfortable with it. Not many players are doing it, and most of them have latin origins (El Negro, Antonio,...). It's not like Bossa Nova where you could get the basics within a couple of days of shedding. It's not even close to blowing over the samba feet. Since it's an highly syncopated phrase with no down beat, it takes LOTS of practice to get the independance. Then there's the whole FEEL thing (which may not be that natural for north americans). Now when you combine playing on top of the LF clave/RF tumbao, I think you're in for years of shedding pleausure.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Absolutley. [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2004 06:03 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I dig that stuff (the left-foot clave)
but I'm going to say that, while it is
great to have, it's not necessarily going
to get you a gig with whomever. It's not
all about the left or the right foot. It's
about the hands AND the feet.

It's there for anyone that wants it. You
just have to get into it and let it come
back out of you.

Pedro knows what I'm talking about and he
could have been there, the monster he is.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2004 06:04 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

In the last few years they have definetly gone more to the Latin/Jazz side of things.
How did they find out about me? Well like most, when the word went out that Joel was leaving I started emailing Jay, after a few weeks they asked for samples of my playing, this went on for about a month or so of my sending different playing styles. Then I got the word from their manager inviting me to come out to Suffern and audition, they sent a letter plus cd with 4 tunes to learn 1 they scratched at the last minute.

A wealthy band? I don't know the financial position of the guys, Joel does drive an older Porsche.......
I know what my stake in the band would have been by show and it was not high by any means, I make more in the studio and on corporate gigs then I would have being on the road with the band.
I wa sable to score a bootleg DVD of the band live from last year at the North Sea Jazz fest to give me an idea of what they were doing live, it helped a great deal to get into the mood of things, Joel rips on it.

1 thing that Jay said to me after was that they wanted to have the "wow" factor this time when they tour and that really summed it up for me as to where theri heads were in terms of handing out the Latin stuff.

Who else was auditioning? From what I saw on the call sheets Tony Beard was the only HEAVY weight during the 3 days and he was after me. he lives in NY and is friends with Julio. All the cats auditioning were recorded so the band could listen back and make a better decision.

Pedro is a world-class player, IMHO [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

He should be doing these big name tour clinics & vids, certainly moreso than a few that i've seen do them [Alex S AW;=)]...but then we all know that in those cases it's about the sales #s/fame/popularity factor anyway....*sigh*...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2004 07:14 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Pedro is the man, down there.
Make no mistake. We just know
little about him, up here.

The same is true for Alex, in
Germany. I'm serious - Touch
his hand and your's burns!

These guys are WANTED! We're
fortunate to know them, here.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Yes it was Spyro Gyra.

The band ended up hiring an unknown cat named Ludwig Alfonso, big in the latin circle of NY/Florida.

This was such a killer experience for me, it was by invitation only, 17 guys were asked to audition for the band and they were such great cats to hang with. Of all the acts and or auditions I have done this was the most laid back, very nice guys to be around.

I flew up to Newark and drove up to Jay Beckensteins place in Suffern, about 45 minutes on the Jersey turnpike. Beautiful studio, a converted old stone barn in the countryside.
http://www.beartracks.com/lodging.html

I arrived in plenty of time even after going into Manhattan by mistake and turning around and getting back on the right highway. geez, pays to have friends everywhere, a good friend and great player in NY saved my ass and lead me back to the GW bridge.
Anyway, I was greeted by Phil Brennan the bands manager and was taken upstairs into the studio, Tom was the first guy I meant and was just waking up, really nice cat. I then met Jay, Scott and Julio.
Very laid back audition, we jumped into playing "Africa" an older tune from the Eli Konikoff era, then we played "SouthBeach", this tune has NO drums, just perc. This was the tune that took skills to a new level.
I was then dropped a new tune to play, something they do live which toggles between latin and swing. Something should be pointed out, we never discussed 'endings' or form. So we played tis tune and Tom played a figure which to me sounded as if we were ending the tune, turned out it's where they wanted me to solo. Duh.........
Out of all the tunes we ended spot on excpet for this one for I had know idea what we were doing and or going with it, oh well. Next we played "Cape Town Love" from the latest cd Original Cinema, again latin feel.
Matter fact all the tunes except Africa were of Latin groove and this is how I knew where they really wanted to go with the band and if you look at the geniology of the band........Eli Konikoff, groove based, Ritchie Morales, groove/light latin, Joel, groove/ more latin. This next cat is heavier than Joel in the Latin stuff. Look for kewl things from him.

"After an exhaustive search and many auditions, Spyro Gyra has found the drummer for the next phase of its recording and touring history. Ludwig Afonso, born in Cuba and raised in Miami, will make his performing debut with the band at the famed Blue Note in Manhattan in April. Ludwig also makes his recording debut with Spyro Gyra on The Deep End, scheduled for release in late May."

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2004 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Randy Walker ]</font>

I'll attempt a meaningful response, myself not being a "Working Drummer".

How far do you go you ask? Hard to say... How much practicing time do you have?

I guess you have to know your limits as to what you can and can't do, being comfortable playing such and such styles. Then strive your very best to be the very best you can be within your own sphere of expertise. Your name will go round with a reputation attached to it. I.E: Great groove player, great site reader, great Latin player, great All Around.

As we all know, very few drummers have the luxury of making a living being a one dimensional drummer like Neil Pert (that's relative to what you're financially comfortable with of course).

I am gonna state the obvious here, if you wanna play for a living, the bottom line is a financial one. So you can only help yourself in working on as much different styles as possible. Making a living playing in a Rock band can take you only so far. Dave Weckl had mentionned in a recent Clinic (or was it in a Drum Mag I got it from?), that he's got friends that restricted themselves playing Rock and they're now making a living selling cars. Nothing wrong with selling cars, but if your original intention was to play music for a living, you setting yourself up for a big surprise.

I agree 100% . I got lost somewhere in my ramblings, was trying to say something and it got garbled.
My playing was enough to get noticed by the band and any other gig I have had and or have curently and I feel very lucky to make a living playing drums. I'm not Vinnie or Weckl but that's ok.

Just read your reply Randy...

I think it is of great significance for your name to be on the list of selected few!!! As far as you having a reputation as a working drummer, being on the Spyro Gyra list speaks loud and clear, happy for you bro! Keep it up, you're definitly doing something right... [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

heck, even getting a chance to audition with Spyro Gyra is a big deal...I think that alone says alot about how you play the drums...you have to be good and doing something right to get noticed by a band like that [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Randy,

Great on getting invited. You don't
get invited to do this gig, unless
you can bring something to table.

There are types of music that can
bring out more in the player and at
the same time demand the essentials.
I think Latin is one of those.

I know that I'm preaching to the
choir, in Tombo.

It helps to be comfortable, with
all types of music - even if in
it's just a cursory level, trying
to have patterns ready for what-
ever may be needed. Of course,
these have to be layered over
very well established grooves...

...and remembering that there is
more than one way to skin a cat!

Again, well done, Randy!

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 20, 2004 01:01 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Speaking of Russ Miller...I know I have mentioned this before, but his Drum Set Crash Course Series is stellar for learning how to play different styles...I have both the book and DVD and they are both great...he basically takes the most important aspects of each style and shows how to play them...obviously his book just kinda scratches the surface and doesn't go as in depth into, for example latin drumming as a book only dedicated to that style would, but it shows enough to get the job done...if you can play everything in that book, you'll basically be able to sit in playing any kind of music in a convincing fashion.

there is no way to bring the cuban dances to the drumset if you don't know how to play the different dances on the original instruments!
A cuban drumset player not just plays a clave
with the left foot but can incorporate any melody from any instrument involved in the particular dance - e.g. he plays the bassline on the toms,
a bata hit on the kick, a few accents from a
bongo line and at same time fakes a bell with the left hand. He's even capable of playing
short and long notes on any skined drums as well on the metalstuff.
Not even talking about the temperament one needs to bring it alive...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2004 10:36 AM: Message edited by: AngeloClematide ]</font>

This has been posted, but it's a good read with a lot of experiencial advice from Russ

Russ Miller

Who do you think they would have used if the "new guy" wasn't their choice for recording? And if they were going to use someone else (maybe more than one) wouldn't they ask that drummer to play with them? I mean, if he could interpret their music well enough to be recorded forever, he must be the right player for them...right?

This stuff fascinates me...I'm a process guy.

Pete, Fuse, Tombo, thank you for your coments, I really apreciate them [img]smile.gif[/img]

Randy, congratulations!!, you are moving in the big leages so sooner or later something better would apear [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

What I think about this, first, for me one of the most important things as a musician is to have direction, the moment you see a picture of the drummer you want to be, or the gigs you'd like,it becomes easier to know what you need to study.
Being versatile it's not necesary better, it's just a path that we choose. 40 years ago you have two options: being a jazz drummer or a rock drummer, but these days are way more, and it's imposible to cover all, so we must be vey careful in what we choose to practice or not.
I've seen that the versatile drummers usually have more work, but the specializad drummers are more recognized, specially in the drummers circuit.

About the latin rhythms, I think it doesn't matter if you are latin, african, chinese or watever, the information is there. I'm not a latin expert by any means, but what I know I learned from the same sources that anybody can have accses, like books and CDs. I'm from Mexico, but the traditional music in Mexico doesn't have clave, so I didn't have any advantage.
I've known Antoni S. for some years, and when he went to Berklee, he didn't know anything about latin music, he learned everything there... he could have been born in Yougoslavia and it would be the same thing.
I can more or less play the clave with mi feet, and I've done maybe hundreds of different gigs over the years and I've never been asked to play it, I do it just for fun. I think that Antonio coud be playing the Metheny and Brecker gigs without a cowbell in his feet and 99% of the people would'n notice, or care!, (even Pat and Michael).

This is an intresting topic, I've to go now, but I'll come back later [img]wink.gif[/img]

Pocket, according to Jay and Scott the cd was complete and they were mixing. So, what i find interesting is that they decided to redo some of the tunes with the new guy instead of just letting it be released and doing the tour and THEN doing a new disc with the new cat.

Randy-Congrats, that's great that you got that audition.

I think being well-rounded comes down to keeping an open mind about music. Listening to what a style of music has to offer and being open to it rather than not listening to it because it does'nt have what you want it to offer. I agree with Bozzio, if a player is going to get to the essence of a style of music it better be because that player loves that music. After you've done all the homework, it's up to you to express yourself through it.

Cool story, RW, thanks so much for the insight.

You are right, Angelo, & thx for that brief yet informative post
...& can anyone say, "El Negro?" [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
[I know there are plenty of other "unsung heroes" out there, plenty of percussionist AW coming up who are doing these sorts of things, but i just figured i'd name a 'famous' one that most here could relate to] ;=)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 21, 2004 12:45 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

My pleasure Fuse. All in all, it was a great hang and to have been invited meant more to me than getting the gig.
I have been fortunate to play for quite a few acts and have had my share of auditions too, but this was a tad more special in how it all went down and I regard it as such.

I was very surprised to hear that they are using the new guy on the record, which when I was there they mentioned that the disc was done and that they were behind in the mixing for a May release.
So this could be very kewl to hear him on the new disc.