DONATI CLINIC...Ho Lee She Heist

Donati owns us all.

He is a sick, sick individual. One serious exponent of the instrument. A remarkable, die-hard virtuoso; an unbelievable Olympian of contemporary rhythmic approach on the drumkit; a true, consumate, 'bona-fide' artist. Oh, & did i say he was a great player?

He gives new meaning to the term "assault & batterie." And he is what the term "heavy metal" is really all about, now [even though he is also so much more.]

Okay. Here's the deal On The Virg clinic, the first for me seeing him live & up close, altho I've been listening to his first 2 solo discs & PX for about almost 1-1/2 years now, AWA his 2nd vid & the MDF '97 vid.
I can sum it up with just one ledger:
[img]eek.gif[/img]
But then I knew what I was in store for.
He is what he is. Virg is, quite simply, "Of the 'Vinnieness'." [...notice the key word here is, "of..." ;c), AFA the understanding & application of odd-time, polyrhythmic patterns, & modulation]...

A lot of guys state their 'lack of preference' for his style, or the music composing-&-arrangement style of, say, a Planet X type of band; you know, the writing around the construction of more complex multi-layered rhythm[s], seemingly ...but it is what it is. The fact is, he can do the stuff. [& you never hear any1 say "he can't play" or "doesn't have chops or technique/ability" ;c)] One thing is sure. It is clear that he's earned his "Badge of Honor."
I found it an enlightening clinic.
But then I knew what I was in store for. The guy's on fire, broski's.

I'm telling you - he is a force to be reckoned with. I really can't expound on him any more than any of the other guys in here already have [who've written about his clinics], such as Dij, Peter, Pocket, or others...

Very informative...went into notated details of some of the standard rhythmic musical concepts behind his arsenal of multi-layered/polyrhythmic/odd-time/metric-modulation abilities...man does he have some wicked polyrhymic capabilites. & in a way that i don't even think Vinnie [the 'Mighty Yardstick' ;c)] does, even tho Vinnie CAN do THE STUFF in his own way, & he [VC] definitely has the understanding & capability of the concepts. Perhaps VC is a little more 'musical' at it? VC does have that certain special undefinable touch...Oh, Lord, I don't know...that's a close one...splittin' hairs...diff colors of the vast incredible rainbow...

Of course, more than half the room [mostly the really young metal guys] burst into cheers when he'd do the fast chops stuff, like the DB flurries b4 coming back to the snare flam: "BrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRR-KACK!" [img]wink.gif[/img] , or when he played really fast rudimentally based chops & the like, & the incredible twirling showmanship to boot [only Lang & Emory, & maybe Minnemann, Rabb & Mayer come to mind here]...but it's when he lays into his multi-pulsed, layered, contrapuntal grooves & then fills, look the heck out! THAT is the real testament to his greatness [AWA the "chops" & speed]. Altho i enjoy the greasy-gut-bucket groove of say Chambers/Erskine/Gadd/Jeff/Abe/Thompson AW, there's NO denying that Virg is at the forefront of musical dexterity on the kit, PERIOD. And his meter is DEAD ON THE MONEY. But we all already know that. ;c) I enjoy listening to the results of his wonderful dedication.

Then there was the younger guy who asked V if he listened to Portnoy for inspiration & ideas, & aft a short pause, V answered politely with "Actually, no"...& half the room snickered. I felt badly for him. But V answered politely but matter-of-factly again, stating that that was not meant to be a slam, but rather that at his own [V's] present stage of development, all he had time for was his own thing, those that he is working on now [shudder to think], that perhaps if he was 16 or so or at that lad's stage now, he would've found that as his prefernece for learning & development. He remarked something like "there are plenty of rhythmic permutations to keep me busy with & of myself." And then you get the poor guy who, aft V has just handed out a notation sheet & gone through explaining the mechanics of some of what he just did, asks him the redundant "how does he approach his concepts of breaking down those complex grooves" again... [img]redface.gif[/img]

He does these wicked, wicked grooves where he plays a differently metered ostinato in eack limb, or two limbs while keeping a complex pattern undercurrent with the feet on hats & kick[s], & bring it up from slow to uptempo. Then, he'll switch the patterns up by reversing those patterns to the opposite limbs without so much a waver of the time! From side to side & top to bottom. And then hitting wicked permutations of kicks/hits so that the placement naturally makes it sound as if it's speeding up & slowing down, while playing complex DB patterns or ostinatos in between the hits. Yeah, right, V-man. Ho Lee She Heist. These are no beginners or intermediate player concepts/grooves either, pal.

After a lenghty blistering solo intro, building from a whisper to a crescendo'ed roar, he then played along to some tracks ["Now that I'm warmed up, I'd like to..." [img]eek.gif[/img] ], including the one called Quantum Factor & also PX's Ataraxia, & went into a detailed explanation of the grooves, & the subdivisions & patterns. This guy is a mathematical whiz on the drumkit. But he makes them sound musical. It IS what it IS. Oh, & he uses dynamics AW, altho he is primarliy known for his aggressive attack on the set. He did also say that he listened &/or listens to Philly Joe, Deej, Haynes, Elvin, Tony, Vinnie, Weckl, Chambers...go figure..."whooda thunkit."

He also held private L's for $100 a pop & a master class for $35,...a little steep for me, but there's no doubt you can learn some really valuable things from this monster.

I have little doubt that if Zappa were still here with us he would've come around to having Virgil on AT LEAST one of his albums...

If you walk away from one of his clinics without even a tinge of a nervous shiver, you'd better check your pulse, because you're dead. Both the Power Drumming vid & MDF '97 were killer; but to understand the magnitude of this guy is to see him live. ESP. in clinic or a PX/OTV/SYI type of playing situation, with bandmates. He does some of the sickest independence/inter-dependence grooves i have ever seen, bar none. Marco [& Mangini] are the closest thing to it. But Virg is the cremme de la cremme[sp?]. If you have yet to see him live in clinic, then you had better reserve your judgement of him until that time. Don't even begin to talk to me about critiquing this guy's playing - you are almost guaranteed to pee your pants when you witness him in clinic up close. Unless you can pull off the stuff he plays, zip it.

I took a really good fusion guitarist friend of mine [who's into Diorio, Martino, Holdsworth, Henderson, Gambale] to it, & after the show, we had to tie a sling under his chin to keep it from dragging the pavement on the way out, until we could get him to a plastic surgeon.

With Virg, it's really not about the chops or DB per se, altho he def has the chops to kill, but it's his unbelievable rhythmic skills, & the transferred physical abilty to carry them out, a result of YEARS of hard practice & training on the kit.

It was enough that we had Vinnie & Weckl to study & contend with; but now, Virgil also...sheesh, WTHeck...

If you are a serious drummer, it is a clinic NOT to be missed, FOR SHORE - because this guy is seriously, & i do mean seriously, heavy.

--------------------------------

[Said in his best high-pitched, sly voice]:

"They're just numbers, fractions...you don't have to be frightened of them...." ;c)
- Virgil, 4/04

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 23, 2004 02:33 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

you certainly have a way with words Fuse...very entertaining review [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 21, 2004 10:40 AM: Message edited by: quitou ]</font>

Great Review Fuse !

I too got to witness Virgil live and in person for the first time. He stopped here in Wisconsin for what I think he said was the first of his upcoming clinics. So this was either good or bad as he was either fresh or rusty. Either way he put on an incredible clinic. I'd never seen or even really heard him play before, since I don't own any of the records he's on, and, frankly, don't really dig the style of music he usually plays. But the stuff he pulls off on the kit is undeniably advanced and sounds pretty damn good too. Fuse, as you said, he plays polyrhythmic stuff that Vinnie maybe can't pull off -- I've never heard Vinnie play a double paradiddle between his RH & RF against a paradiddle between his LH & LF while accenting various beats with the LH within the paradiddle. And then swapping the combinations without stopping. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] But at this point I think it's about what Virgil, Vinnie, (insert heavyweight drummer here) CHOOSES to do rather CAN or CAN'T do. All of these drummers have shown that they have the dedication and talent to achieve pretty much whatever it is that their particular muse directs them to. But for each, that muse is different and so they will sound different and have different strengths. But they all excell at what they want to excell at. At the clinic someone asked what Virgil thought of seemingly like-minded individuals like Lang and Minneman, and Virgil said, "Well, what do you think of them?" Good answer, because that's what matters. Virgil, Lang, Minneman, etc. are each doing their own thing and that's as it should be with anyone, including us fans of great drummers like Vinnie, Virgil, Lang, etc.

Another interesting thing raised at the clinic was the topic of stick-twirling. During his solo he did a bunch of stick tricks while standing up and playing various patterns on the toms and cymbals. Afterwards someone asked if the stick tricks contributed to the sound aspect of drumming or if it was purely for visual effect. At first Virgil said that it was just for visual effect, but as he was answering he was kind of thinking out loud and then changed his mind a bit. He said that stick tricks would have an effect on the sound because it would be almost impossible to come up with the same patterns and combinations and hitting cymbals on the up-twirl (or whatever it's called, I'm not a twirler [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), etc. without actually doing the twirling and whatnot and thinking how you're thinking while twirling. The twirling is just another thing that defines who he is as a drummer and effects how he sounds, looks, and thinks about drumming.

So anyway, it was a great clinic. Go see him if you can. Now I just have to see him with a band and see in person what he can do in that setting.

Incidently, speaking of clinics, I also recently saw Ed Shaughnessy. He gave an hour clinic and then played an hour set with a 12 piece brass section and bass and piano. It was inside a drum shop and he said we were witnessing something that didn't happen too much anymore -- an acoustic set by a big band. No amps, no mics, just drums banging away and horns blowing right in your face. It was very cool. Great clinic and a great guy. He had a couple good stories about Buddy Rich and the pranks Ed played on him (replacing a drumhead with one made from papier-mache [img]confused.gif[/img] , and switching a cymbal with a dummy one that shattered on impact [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img] ) See him too if you get the chance.

I know I typed a scat-load, as I rarely ever do that [img]wink.gif[/img] , but I just had to get that out.

It's no wonder Weckl remarks, "can you imagine how much that guy had to practice to pull those things off?," & Chambers said "he's sick" & also says to Virg himself about Tony, "I think you scared him" [img]eek.gif[/img] ...

I know it's "'only' drumming," but i was in the presence of musical greatness that day.

PS - Shaughnessy is great, swings his butt off in big band style; i bet that was cool experience, horns & all, & acoustic/ambient. Those little anecdotes were funny AW, doing that to Buddy, of all people! Good story.

Cheers.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 21, 2004 03:29 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Fuse, I think you have automatically been crowned "The Official HOD Journalist".

See if Steve needs to send you anywhere. [img]wink.gif[/img]

P.S. - I hope Virg comes to Texas at some point. Most guys ignore this area. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Great review Fuse-man! Thanks!

I've got to see this guy.

Chops are great. Limbs playing all different things? Yeah, cool, nice trick. Check out Pete Zeldman for that. Donati=Vinnieness? hmmm. NOT.
What's the main goal of any drummer? What's the role of the instrument? Well the goal should be to play music as much as possible. When people hire you for albums because you make the music feel amazing, well then you're in.
The role of the instrument? I think it's play a down dirty wide groove, first and formost. Maybe some of that practice time should have been alotted to playing an R+B groove over and over.
Vinnie has a great feel and plays music. Virgil like Dom Famularo can go join a circus. Sorry not my bag.
I've heard the guy play. Stiff icy grooves aren't where it's at. I guess that's why he's not on any hit albums. Gadd is god. Keltner is King. Pelton is a prince. Porcaro left him the throne. Abe Jr is our Bonham. Guy's that do mostly clinics are the court jesters. Let's play music!

Wow!

How elloquent GreasyGroove! I totally agree!

Vinnie has the most incredible technical facility but grooves as well as anyone, (if not better). I have yet to stop myself from yawning watching Virgil!

He's fast no doubt, and he can make his legs and arm do different things to make drummers think "WOW, this guy's incredible". BUT...

I've just been blessed enough to play with one of England's top bassists on a session for a programme on the BBC, and he summed it all up for me when he said,

"Yeah, drummers are weird like that, I'd never hire him to play on a track for me, I prefer someone who can really smoke a kit without all the effort and speed s**t"

Bottom line, Virgil impresses drumers for sure, but not really the wider musical world. He's to be applauded for exploring the boundries I suppose, but it leaves me cold. As Steve White keeps saying, "There's the drum industry for drummers, and the music industry for musicians." Think about where Virgil lay in that schematic compared to players like Abe, Vinnie, Lang, Bissonette and the like...

Didn't Vinnie say recently he likes to go hear Virgil at the Baked Potato to specifically get his "butt Kicked?"

I'm not a drummer, but it seems to me comparing Virgil with Jeff P, Vinnie or Kelter is pointless. It's a different thing altogether. It's like comparing Clapton & Steve Vai. There's no ONE WAY to make music, I don't care what instrument you play.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 21, 2004 06:02 PM: Message edited by: JDouglee ]</font>

Totally 101% in agreement there my good man...

No question everyone's tastes in music is different. My point was, and maybe I didn't make it very clearly, is that Virgil performs soley for the drumming world and not the wider music business...

This is just totally my opinion though, and I know there are a lot of Virgil Donati fans here, so I'd hate to upset anyone!

yeah it's easy for Vinnie to say that. He's on the best albums of our time. I'm sure he get's a kick out of Virgil's circus ability. But in 50 years, people and musicians will still be listening Vinnie, Gadd, Porc, and Pelt. Even if they don't know it. Virgil is not a practical drummer. He's a drummer for drummers who want to learn how to get fired, and how to waste time developing monkey tools instead music tools. Groove DAMMIT! hahaha. DOn't get me wrong, I respect guys with that discipline, I just don't see what relevency it has to music. It pisses me off when drummers freak out about that, and guy's like Shawn Pelton go over looked for years. Yet they make a much better living playing on tons of CDs. The fact is that most drummers are disfuntional because of guys like Donati and Fam going around the world saying "check THIS out!". What are they saying musically?? Nothing
Gadd is God! hahahaha
Cool board!

There's one guy who is in a league of his own in the groove spectrum and that's Chris Parker, IMO.

I got a big kick out of watching him play on SNL and he was a hitter.

Some of the stuff he did with Stuff (sorry...) was pretty fantastic.

oh..and let's get this straight. Steve Vai can groove and has a sick knowledge of harmony like some of our classical forfathers. He play's an instrument where that knowledge is key, and he can also play the hell out of the blues. i've seen it. He plays drums, and his pocket is better Virgils.
You can't make a comparison like that using other instrumentalists. Drummers are the only ones who idolize endless amounts of usless chops. Guitarists with tons of chops sound good when the drummer plays a groove behind them. It's still musical,like classical paino music where as, drummers playing all that useless crap is not musical.Just an opinion, but again, the only famous drummer(as far as the general public goes) right now is Amir Thompson.Quest love. The guy doesn't have one chop. So I guess that says it all.Go ask someone that works at NARAS who Virgil is. hahahahahahaha!!

ahhh Benrad Chris Parker! Yes! Now I love this board. A real drummer!

Yeah he did say that JDouglee. Vinnie openly say's Virg kicks his tail well what do you know! More of the can he play groove dribble and pocket etc. Good Gosh who cares and yes he can for anyone WHO really knows. Who the heck said drumming rules were about this style or that style this or that, who made the absolute rules of drumming GOD maybe I think not, know one that I know of. As someone eloquently said you have the jazz police, the rock watchdogs or the pop know it all's always lurking around to blast someone because it does not appeal to them or because they cannot do it. I know who said that, by golly the Late great Tony Williams made these comments when he was blasted for exploring other areas and incorporating other styles into his playing and it did not sound and feel like it had before. I will take his standard of opinion over others because he was right not because he was Tony.

It is funny when guy's on this board praise other drummers playing in different styles I do not find myself and many others trashing them for doing what they do and their accomplishments. Even if it is not my bag or I am not moved by it, I still recognize the greatness and achievement in what they do. But lo and behold when Virg or Lang or Marco etc is mentioned time to trash the guy's. Old news

I know, I know some of you do not care to play like Virg or Etc. the old standard reply.

1998 at PAS in Florida and the comments about Virg from the likes of Vinnie and Smith etc. "Those in the know, are very aware of what this guy can do and has done in the drumming world and his command over his instrument and it goes beyond soloing, I guess that is why a number of different musicians(pop, rock, fusion,) have had Virg on their gigs or on their records because he only knows how to solo in extreme fashion. Not!

I remember a guy at PAS(will not mention names to make the guy look bad) who was doing a clinic and he was known for funky/pop stylings, well to say the least he was no Virg or Vinnie or Smith or Horacio others at the show and that was O.K. he did what he did well. But he got into trouble when trying to solo in the context of a song or ,just plain solo he could not do it even if his life depended on it, still O.K. but he started to make comments to justify his inability to solo or venture beyond the basic parameters and was giving the tongue in cheek standard sarcastic comments "Who cares about having great technique and great chops I do not.
I will let others do the crazy stuff I just make music and well I am making the money, hah hah he say's. Fusion stuff is for others yack yack he went on and on trying to build himself up and trashing others in the process it went over like a lead balloon, the crowd for the MOST part was not receptive to his foolish statements especially after his frightful attempt to do something half way creative and exhibiting good technique and chops in any form.

Later that day at a Mangini clinic here is Virg, Terry B. and Steve Smith all hanging and chatting having a real good time and this guy( the sarcastic guy) walks up to try and make conversation and well it did not work and he knew it and they walked off leaving him on his own, a little payback maybe. Even Mangini while he spoke and being much different than Virg and Terry and Steve gave praise to the 3 of them for their achievments even though he plays much different at times and is doing his own thing and incredibly so, it was classy to say the least. And you could see that the respect was reciprocated. Even if Mike's drumming was not their biggest love, they had honor and respect for his achievments. Same way I feel Mike is not musically my favorite but his skills and innovation is commendable. And it does not bother me to say so.

Lastly Don Famu is no VIRG! even though he is a good drummer, bad comparison and the circus comment that was tasteful.

This is not about defending Virg or Lang or Marco
etc they are doing things we could only imagine and their incredible playing and accomplishments is defense enough, but it is about having an open minded, teachable attitude and being able to praise the greatness in others who are obviously great, even if it is not your bag or style or your form of groove or pocket( who made those rules also must of missed that) instead of the narrow minded trashing of others. And judging drumming greatness by how many pop albums you play on means nothing. Who made that rule also.

Peace Dig

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Groovemeister:
My point was, and maybe I didn't make it very clearly, is that Virgil performs soley for the drumming world and not the wider music business...

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, as I stated, I don't play drums yet I enjoy Virgil's style & sense of daring very much. Perhaps Virgil isn't interested in the wider music world as you call it, perhaps he could care less about making tons of $$ with pop artists. It seems he plays what he likes and doesn't compromise. Love it or hate it, ya gotta respect it.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 21, 2004 06:59 PM: Message edited by: JDouglee ]</font>

Did anyone ever think that some guy's do not play to see how many browny points they can rack up by playing on alot of pop albums or how much dough they can make, it does not mean squat to some guy's(not that it is wrong for others to do it like the guy I mentioned before at PAS)but copping an attitude about like I am a god and you are not because I play on so and so albums means nothing, and hey by the way some of these guy's like Virg have been down that road and done it,( he played on numerous albums before coming to the states) and they do not care about it too much anymore. Their vision is different.

Alot of guy's could go the other rout and start trashing every guy who plays the straight ahead gig's and does not play innovative, complex fusion or prog and who's interdependence is not up to snuff or their feet are below par or their dexterity and precision is lacking. Alot of Guy's do what they want to do beleive it or not they are not forced to do it. I am sure Virgil and others are not saying CRAP this is the only way I can play and all I know how to do, I am so stuck and limited poor me! They do it cause it drives them like others are driven by the country or pop gig, leave it at that.

Dig

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

Yeah, it's like straight ahead jazz snobs or prog geeks...it's just that ONE approach and everything else sucks. You're limiting yourself big time.

I can sit & listen to Jeff Porcaro's deep grooves then turn on Virgil's complex music, then chill with some old Coltrane. And thank God I can enjoy them all!

I agree. Virgil clearly doesn't want to play pocket stuff so to speak.

I'm not sure about Virgil's long-term prospects. History will tell the story but I think you have to (at least) acknowledge this:

Virgil came onto the scene on the heels of a period where some of the most prolific and able drummers emerged. (E.g. Vinnie, Weckl, Dennis etc) Ability on the instrument (not taste necessarily) was at an all time high.

Virgil basically came on the scene and REMOVED the ceiling for what was possible on the instrument. I think he's taken it to such an extent that at this point, virtually anything seems possible. I cannot stress enough how large an accomplishment that really is in the drumming world. (note I didn't say music world) He essentially moved our art form forward a couple generations BY HIMSELF in regards to what can be done physically. I do not believe there is a comparable human being on any other instrument with the possible exception of Buddy Rich. (who revealed to the world what would now be considered contemporary drumming ability)

I have no comment at all on whether you like him or not, his playing, his music etc etc. I post only to highlight the positive in what he has accomplished which is, in my opinion, undeniable.

You're never going to innovate without pissing some people off. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Much said Derek, with fewer words than I have the ability not to write [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Dig

Hey here's a thought Bunny Brunel a very accomplished Bass player in his own right(Chick Corea and others etc.) just had Virg re-do all the drum tracks off of his L.A. Zoo revisited disc wonder why, it must of been because Virgil sucks or Bunny felt sorry for him, or you know maybe Bunny being such a slouch humself could not get anyone else to do it.

Dig

This is not a diss on Virgil.

There's always going to be someone bigger, stronger and faster. What matters is how it fits into the music. Those chops in the right setting will be great. It's how they are used for the music.

I just get bored if the music becomes all about the technique. Leaving something for the imagination is great sometimes.


It's like- the first tune blows my socks off, and then by the 3rd tune I'm looking for the fire exit.

"Just because you can doesn't mean you should".

but...... It's nice to have it WHEN it requires it [img]tongue.gif[/img]

From what I have heard(those who have the disc already, being it has just came out)) it is just as Blake stated that Bunny wanted and allowed Virg to use his technical greatness and great imagination to improve the song's and add his own flavor and uniqueness to the album, is not that what it is about. Guy's hire Vinnie and Weckl etc. not to sound like a drum program but to add their OWN touch of greatness technically and creatively whether it is pocket music or not.
I remember listening to Pattitucci's Sketchbook album for the first time and Vinnie is blowing all over that is why he was their to blow because it fit, it worked it made the music better. It sure was far more than pocket, in fact on some tunes most of it was not pocket , but it worked.

Dig

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

I was not dissin' Virgil. Not sure who said this, but it's true. He should be commended for being himself. But as I said, drummers tend to miss the point. And the point is to play pocket. And Bunny, he's OK, great he hired Virgil. Virgil is by no means a session player. I like guys who can blow but save it for the right time and play a hell of a groove. Clinics like Virgils tend to create these drummers who can hardly play a groove with a band, yet have crazy chops and independence. I'm into drummers that have the tools to make music. And yes how albums a guy is on DOES tell you everything. It means that people are willing to ay big bucks to here this persons groove in their music.
And, Pocket, is not a style. Although Vince blows alot on Patitucci's CD, his pocket is still killin. You can have a great pocket while you're tearing it up.

I believe that Virgil can do whatever he wants and he's doing what he wants to do. I remember drummers that did that, in the past, like Tony Williams and Jack Dejohnette... just to name a couple. This is a good thing.

I remember Tony getting bashed for his 'outside' ideas. Posterity saw different as it usually does. Just because it is different doesn't mean it's not worthy.

When Virgil kicks below, he is usually driving a rhythm up top and I mean with jack-hammers! He grooves - just upside down, most of the time. That's Virgil. He can pocket it just fine. He's just wearing overalls that are inside-out.

There is no other and that's like there is no other Tony or Jack or Steve etc.

Everyone likes what they like and they're drawn to what they're drawn to. I love A LOT of different things and I like to think that I can see and hear through what I see and hear. As I did with Tony, during and through his criticisms, I will always side with Virgil as I have seen and believed and know that the future will look back favorably on him and his continuing contributions, as it did Tony, who I believe was and would be very proud of Virgil.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 09:46 AM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Well your interpretation of Pocket is yours not other's we all have opinion's. How much of Virgil's material do you have. Listen to Moonbabies you might HATE the music but his Pocket is very good considering the complexity and creativity and his Meter dead on and the blowing is actually the much lesser of what is going on he pretty much locks in for the most part but whether he plays that way or not does not validate him or make him right or wrong one way or the other.

And no sorry alot of guy's get hired simply to do nothing but sound like a drum machine and nothing else, so what if they get big bucks that validates their drumming also no way, does not even make sense. Exactly why I shared the story about the guy who TRIED to venture out beyond the so called pocket and could not and to validate his lack of skill well let us trash more advanced drummers and I can validate my worth by money and sounding like
a drum machine on ten albums and fine if he that is what he wanted to do great I am sure he did it well, heck if we go by that then the guy who get's hired alot might be just because he is the lowest bid on the market, does not mean he is better or worse than someone else.

Again who got together and made up these rules, according to Tony Williams and others no one did some just make them up. The Pocket police, the jazz snobs,the pop purists, the Rock watchdog's, the prog or you suck crowd what a waste of time it is all WORTHY and worthwhile, no one has the right to say this is less meaningful because I do not dig the style or the pocket is not to my liking. Like I said I like fusion, prog and alot of jazz more than I like pop or rock or country or funk but hey what others are doing is just as valid and worthwhile whether I or others are into it.

Shawn Pelton and Keltner were brought up good solid drummers, to me nothing inspirational or really interesting BUT good none the less and worth while to listen to it works for what they are doing, and no more worthy or less worthy than a Virg or Vinnie, Weckl because they are not as innovative or creative or technically adept or their pocket sounds different. Sometimes it is as we always get back to a matter of taste but as Derek said let us commend the greatness in whatever style or pocket or non pocket, come on if it is not pocket music than it is not valid, this makes me laugh there is no absolute principle that was established just opinions and matters of taste. Today I listened to Cat Stevens and Jim Croce and Elton John and I love it nothing inspirational drumming wise but it is good and it works and is as valid as anything else.

Dig

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

Thanks Fuse GREAT review. Virg was Awesome! back in the 90's but he is on ANOTHER plane right now.
There is a short review back at the Pearl site where one of the Pearl Exec's got to see Virg very recently and said quote "HE is on a whole other level and is demolishing the present standards of what we think can be done on the instrument. "He is almost Super Human." End Quote.

And yes Virg might not be someone's cup of tea but as another Drummer who just saw him stated
"He makes those drums SING! he is very musical
though being extremely complex." He is by far the most musical and creative of the so called Extreme Drummers out there today IMO.

He is one of the Great Pioneer's and innovator's of our instrument Period. "He has raised the bar for all of us. A Quote from a Wonderful! and well known Austrian Drummer. [img]wink.gif[/img]

I have been really Digging Virgil's lessons on his site, even though it will be years digesting the lessons. But not only is he very complex, powerful and precise he plays with amazing fluidity and finesse. Whether with hands or feet the stuff he is laying down is somewhat advanced to VERY advanced but it is smooth as Butter! Check out the lessons and see for yourself

Dig

Fuse,

I knew you would say just what you said. How can anyone help themselves?

Virgil is a fire - a real inspiration. I love seeing his mechanics. He's constantly moving me and others.

I'm so happy that you got to see him. I'm trying to get him to come back to my area, right now.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

HA! Roy - how could I forget to mention you won that killer cymbal at the clinic!
Congrats! [I'm jealous...] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 03:33 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Roy,

I won a Sabian Saturation crash at Virgil's site!

Congrats too!

[img]cool.gif[/img]

moonbabies = pocket

I was at the same clinic as Fuse and we were able to talk some shite before and after the show. Good review my man!
I first saw Virgil about 10 years ago and can remember being utterly blown away. His feet were just as silly back then but his control, endurance and speed are really incredible these days. This is what he does and he does it very well, to the point that nobody else can do it. He said at the clinic that he does pop sessions etc in Australia but judging from his manner when he answered I would say it doesn't interest him as much as writing challenging shit for himself and his friends to play.
Anyway, check him out if you haven't done so already. It was a great clinic, especially the part where I won a Sabian cymbal in the raffle and got Virgil to sign it!
[img]graemlins/present.gif[/img]

What a great review Fuse!
This really makes me want to see him live.

I must confess that what I?ve seen/heard of him up to now didn?t move me much emotionnally, although I fully respect his dedication, accomplishments and rythmitic virtuosity.

I guess, like some of you said, that you have to experience him live to get the measure of his talent. So I?m more than open and wish he?ll stop by here someday.

I will need to get past the double kick flurries though. I don?t know why, but too much DB agresses my ear whether it?s played by Virgil with extreme dexterity and complexity or by the average Portnoys. Maybe a question of frequencies?or too up front?I don?t know. I tend to prefer a left foot on another surface.

Wow,
I never realise I didn't make it that clear! I'm totally sorry. I don't know exactly what "trashing" means in America, but I am under the assumption that it means dissing or being disrespectful/speaking ill of someone.

Nowhere have I done this. I have never said Virgil was bad or uneventful.What I have said is that his drumming doesn't appeal to me. I even said that Virgil's exploration and pushing of boundries is to be applauded!

I don't deny that Virgil is pushing the boundries as I clearly said. You are also very wrong to assume that I believe there is only credibility when people play on pop records that sell millions. That is no measure of sucess at all and the drummers on those albums would be the first to admit that!

Digital Man, I am not a member of the "jazz police" or in the "rock watchdog", nor am I a "pop know it all". I am not blasting anyone because what they do doesn't appeal to me or because I cannot do it (no shit Sherlock Holmes, I'm no Virgil Donati!!!).

What I stated was my opinion. What in the Lord's name is this board for if not for that?!?!?! I was very careful not to slam Virgil, as I clearly stated (AGAIN!!!) he's pushing boundries and should be applauded for that. I have no idea who judges drumming greatness by how many pop albums you play on but whoever made that 'rule' as you put it ought to be strung up from the nearest tree!!!

"Yeah, it's like straight ahead jazz snobs or prog geeks...it's just that ONE approach and everything else sucks. You're limiting yourself big time."

Well said my man, lucky I too don't limit my listening to any genre either. What I am saying, (and I did prepare myself for this) is that I am not a fan of Virgil's playing. This is my opinion and all the monikers and stereotypes thrown at me because of my OPINION will not change my views.

Thanks for listening guys...

I do not think I directed my statements at you
Groove, and there was a post or 2 by someone who made some real sarcastic comments and it was not you, a hint [img]wink.gif[/img] unless you are the only one who posted. Obviously my comments about album sales
and playing in the so called pocket, and Virg can join the circus etc, among other things was AT THE person who made those statements, please do not jump to conclusions that it was at you unless you made the comments which obviously you did not. Your statments were understood and were not cutting, you just voiced an opinion which I totally disagree with and that is cool.

Peace Dig

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

Here is a little Virgil story:
A few years ago, an excellent bass player friend of mine called me very exited because he was going to do a session in L.A., and Vinnie was going to be the drummer!!. At the end Vinnie couldn't make it. When he came back he asked me if I knew Virgil Donati... at that time I haven't heard him, and he told me that he did the record and that some people consider him the "new Vinnie". He showed me one track and it was a VERY simple rhythm, played with a VERY deep pocket. It sounded like it was John Robinson or J. Porcaro!. He told me that he did everything in the first takes and that probably was a big studio drummer.
For one or two years I thought that Virgil was a good sesion drummer, I didn't have a clue of the "other side"... so for those who think that Virgil can't groove, or play simple, belive me, HE CAN, and with out any trouble.... I mean, my friend did a whole CD with him and didn't knew that he could play a double pedal!!!.
I think that if he isn't playing in gold records and earning big $$$, it's because he choose not to, but I'm sure he could do it better than a lot of the guys that are doing that right now.
He's trying to push himself to the limits and we should respect and learn from him. [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]

Good story Pedro and you are exactly right. I know a couple of those stories also where he SHOCKED people with his Groove and tasteful simplicity, not that it matters whether he can or cannot but YES he can lay it down that way.
I think that is why when people ask him(if he can or has done it) it does not move him or impress him at all, he knows what he can do and let's the uninformed make the comments to their own loss.

Dig

Let the PocketMan bring this together here in the HOD chill zone.

I enjoy these barks about music verses drumming, verses?

It must be agreed upon that one?s opinion reflects their internal paradigm, which is largely spiritual, understood or not. That said, FUSE?s review reflects a man of deep passion?one who took in a clinic and absorbed deeply the impact it had on himself. One has to be alive inside to reflect the impact the soul of another has on him. Thanks for the review FUSE!

Many have made true points here. Virgil is a man. He has an extremely deep passion for the drums. This controls his time and energy. He has dedicated himself to the instrument and allowed that commitment to run free.

STOP right here.

Now we shift outside drumming to life itself. How many individuals do you know that have been so passionate about anything (something) that they have dedicated their entire lives to it and have made great advancements towards their specific interest? Answer: NOT MANY?maybe nobody really.

OK?back to Virg.

One can never limit the spiritual journey and calling of another. If Virgil Donati wants to explore drums in a way I can?t relate to, COOL. If there is truth in what he does, I must stand outside of myself and appreciate the many contributions he has made as an individual, and the many character traits needed to accomplish such achievements (discipline, perseverance, dedication, courage, consistency over time, hard work, honestly, self-evaluation?). Don?t diminish these character traits?they are who we are, really.

Groove Vs. Pioneer
Yes, the groove player will work more in today?s music culture. JR said his ?money beat? was 1 & 3 on the BD and 2 & 4 on the SD. How many can play that? Yet, those who can play it best are on the chart toppers list.

In every profession?there are less-known pioneers. My uncle was one of those men. He was one of the world?s first to design the jet propelled turbine engine. He was known as a genius in his field and died relatively poor while guys like H. Hughes made a fortune because of his intelligence. My uncle loved what he did and was a gentle man who impacted my life greatly even though I met him only but a few times in my young life.

Whether a pioneer or chart topper?live your life! I am always amazed when I meet the VERY well known drummer who has to put down another drummer that doesn?t fit into his narrow box. Sad really. Like it was said, freedom is popping in some TOTO, them Miles, then Coltrane, then B-52?s, then Nugent, then Mozart, then?

God Bless the lands that allow for freedom!!! It is only when freedom is taken away that we begin to wish for? We are a blessed nation indeed.

After seeing Virgil many times here in LA, I?ve got to know him and have a little insight into his personal life. He is a gentleman all they way around. He treats people with respect and dignity. This says more than any complex rhythm he can play.

I encourage some to read the following;
Creating Minds by Howard Gardner
The Myth of Certainty by Daniel Taylor (hard to find)
The Four Way of Knowing