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Well it works, that's for sure.
You can retard the timing quite a bit.
I love the throttle response, and see less mid range detionation. I don't think it gives more torque, except down low, and a little up high, but the car feels better more responsive, and it is faster.
I got mine from the group buy from Revolutions Motorsports.
Where did you mount the BTC brain? Mine is hooked up but not permanently mounted. Any ideas?
Right now, it's under the mat at the top. I'd like to mount it somewhere more permenant, but actually it works where it is. We'll see.
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http://www.netbsi-kc.com/integra/
http://www.netbsi-kc.com/aa/
http://www.groupbuycenter.com/
I had mine zip tied under the passenger seat with the wiring hidden through the center console and the adjuster under the steering column. All out of sight and harms way with no visible wiring.
Yeah, I have mine at the very top of the passenger's footwell (under the carpet) and I used some double sided tape and had it secured there.
Lungean, how many click away from the min. did you set yours at? I don't have a J&S and I hear no ping at all...I set it at 3 to 4 clicks away from minimum and the car feels so sluggish, so I have it at 1 now. Wondering if it's okay?
lundgren, if the j&s isn't suppose yo be on all time, when is it?i thought it was suppose to be on always. i just got a civic hb waiting for gsr swap and jrsc. but everyone keeps telling me turbo.
thanks, john
Glad to hear that it works. I got mine from that group buy too.
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Romans 5:1,John 3:16
96 red GSR w/mods..like a JRSC
No it's always on, but it's not always taking out timing, this is what I meant. A couple of lights now and then are ok, but you don't want a christmas tree on your dash.
Random and Bat, you guys sure you have your BTC's installed correctly? At 12 oclock your car should not feel sluggish(it should actually feel better than it did before the BTC).
I am just curious if there is any difference between the OBD1 and OBD2 GSR. Mine is a 94 GSR, and I have my BTC all the way to minimum, and I still don't hear any detonation even if I try to invoke it. I reset the timing to standard 16BTDC and I have the 6 psi setup with JR fuel pump. I read somebody else on the board that also have the 94-95 GSR that has the same experience that I have. Again, am I lucky or am I stupid to put it all the way to minimum?
BTW, I put the BTC on the floor behind the console between the passenger and driver footwell. I am waiting for a better idea where to put it
Let me comment about this min setting.
YES YOU CAN have NO detonation at 0. Why? Because the unit STILL retards in the mid range, even if it's not retarding because of boost.
The JR BTC is a function of Boost and RPM. It adds timing low and high, removes it from the middle.
BUT even if you get NO detonation at the zero setting, not all detonation is audible, it should be run at about 2-4 clicks at 6psi, or 4-7 at 8psi etc. for safety. A LOT has to do with injectors, fuel, altitude, cam gear settings, fuel quality and octane, air temp etc.. so becareful.
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http://www.netbsi-kc.com/integra/
http://www.netbsi-kc.com/aa/
http://www.groupbuycenter.com/
Thanks Lung, I'll reset it back at 3 deg.
CROM, yes it is correctly set. I tested it with a timing gun and blowing into the vaccum hose, the timing mark moved (retarded). The car was originally at 12 BTDC before BTC...when the BTC installed, 12 click away from zero feels like crap. I've been running at 0 for about 3K miles now...I guess I'll take Lungean's advice and move it to 3 http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I'm curious though..when you guys said "I get some detonation at ??? click" do you guys actually *HEAR* the detonation or was it picked up by the J&S safeguard?
Lundgren : thanks for the advice, I guess like Random, I'll put at either 2-3 clicks, just to be sure http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Before the BTC, I had my timing at 12. The J&S took out timing more frequently than it does now. When the BTC is at 12 o'clock, it does feel more sluggish (under full boost, it would retard the timing from 16 to 10.
Funny thing about the J&S. I swear that I can hear, quite distinctly, detonation for 1-1.5 seconds before the J&S lights up and starts to retard. From what I understand, the J&S has a motorola processor, so it should react faster than this. Anybody have a similar reaction?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Batoutahell:
From what I understand, the J&S has a motorola processor, so it should react faster than this. Anybody have a similar reaction?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't matter what microcontroller the J&S is using because it still depends on the programmers code. If the program is too long, or the program interrupts aren't handled correctly then the device may have a slow reaction time.
You can turn the sensitivity up to fix that. But sometimes you get engine noise that sets it off. I get quite often noise that kicks it off when VTEC kicks in.
On my car, the J&S is picking up minor detonation at 3 clicks from minimum, so I run at 4 clicks. At 4 clicks, the j&S occasionally takes out 2-4 degrees of timing in the 3-5K rpm range, but I can live with that. I agree, the car feels noticeably more sluggish at 3-4 clicks, but I don't like the feeling of seeing the J&S monitor light up like a x-mas tree all the time.
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'00ITR#739
JRSC, JR Walbro FP, JR intake, J&S SafeGuard, JR BTC
I have mine at 6 clicks... but then I'm at 8 psi too. I can get a way with less.. but yes the J&S should not be on all the time... not good.
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http://www.netbsi-kc.com/integra/
http://www.netbsi-kc.com/aa/
http://www.groupbuycenter.com/
The J&S is connected to the TPS signal and won't react until the throttle is depressed far enough. So, if there's knock with very little throttle application, the J&S won't do anything about it. Guess what... The TPS relay circuit I've been running on my car for three days now seems to solve that problem. It does this by telling the ECU (and J&S) that the throttle is wide open as soon as there's 1psi or more of boost. So, not only does the circuit eliminate the lean condition at the onset of boost, reducing the likelyhood of knock, it also tells the J&S it can react to knock as soon as there's boost rather than waiting for the throttle to be pressed far enough.
Note: This only works if the J&S taps into the TPS signal closer to the ECU than the relay circuit. Otherwise the J&S sees the real throttle position, not the wide open signal as soon as there's boost.
I've been running mine set all the way to min. so far. I remember reading other posts suggesting that this could happen to me during setup depending on circumstances and that it varies quite a bit from motor to motor even in the same model and year. My particular setup is '95 stock'Teg VTEC with the only mods being JRSC @ 6psi and JR BTC, using Sunoco 94 octane gas. Stock intake, stock header, stock exhaust, no headwork, no cam adjustable cams - just the blower and the box.
Seems okay, but I haven't rung the system out yet, so it might be running rich. One of the things I need to find out yet is how much of a difference putting 92 octane will make. I suspect that it will lead to running several clicks clockwise from where I am now. Also the weather here is 70's max during the day now, which probably makes a diff as well.
Raffe, that's brilliant. Where do I get one?
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'00ITR#739
JRSC, JR Walbro FP, JR intake, J&S SafeGuard, JR BTC
Under $10 in parts from Radio Shack. Sorry, I'm not packaging it, I don't want the liability or hassle, but I'm happy to share the design as there's not much to it.
Raffe, I'm also instead if you don't mind giving us some instructions. Thanks.
Me three! I lost the link to the schematic you have out there.
Thanks.
Greg
Raffe, I thought you mentioned in one of the message that with the installation of the BTC, the problem with the TPS and ECU was eliminated??
The combination of more initial timing and elevated baseline fuel pressure (plus reduced rise rate on the regulator to compensate for the higher baseline) virtually eliminated the hesitation brought on by the lean condition. More timing makes the motor more responsive reducing the hesitation caused by the lean condition to the point where it is less or completely unnoticeable depending on how you drive, but the lean condition is still there. Just for a briefer period and with greatly diminished effect on drivability.
The ECU stays in closed loop until the throttle's down a bit and this is not good when there's significant boost. The problem gets worse when running more boost due to the reduced responsiveness caused by running even less timing and, in the case of a JRSC, the increased boost present at lower RPM with even less throttle.
The addition of the TPS relay circuit I described eliminates the lean condition and arms the J&S as soon as there's enough boost to open the pressure switch. It's convenient that the pressure switch opens at 1psi as this not only works well with the JR enrichment relay, it also works well with the TPS trick. Different pressure switches that open at different pressures could have been used were it necessary, but on my setup, there's no apparent need.
I can take credit for the implementation as it's mine, but I can't take credit for the idea, it came from JeffM of ZDYNE. Perhaps the post where he mentioned it is still on this board somewhere if anyone's interested.
Anyhow, it's no big deal. I'll start a new thread which references the schematic and describes the installation.
I would like to see the schematic or even buy the schematic from you! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Thanks!
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It take a Nation of Millions to hold Us Back!!!
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C-SpeedRacing
[This message has been edited by MouhadIb (edited October 17, 2000).]
I've just installed mine over the weekend. One thing I'm curious about is how you guys can run the BTC 3 or 4 clicks from minimum. My initial timing before BTC was 9 degrees. Doing the simple math, I've set my BTC at 12 o'clock (1 degree per lb. of boost) so at full boost it will be 9 degrees TDC at 6 lbs.
I don't have any guages or J & S and Cartech not installed, which is the reason for my 15 degree timing and BTC knob setting. Can anyone explain?
Thanks,
Adrian.
Isn't each click 0.2 deg retard/lb boost? That means 5 clicks is 1.0 retard/lb boost right? And the 12 o'clock position, which is roughly 7-9 clicks is more retard than that.
Each click is .1 degree of retard per lb of boost. 12 o'clock = 1 degree.
If each click is 0.1 deg, then why does everyone say the car is sluggish at 12 o'clock? The 12 o'clock position should put them right at 10 degrees at max boost which is what most of ran before the BTC. So if each click is 0.1 deg retard, the car should not be sluggish at all, but maybe I'm missing something (which is usually the case).
My car doesn't feel sluggish at 12 o'clock. It feels just like it used to.
Now 4 o'clock... Yikes! Scary slow.
I run at 6 clicks (.6).
Greg
At 12:00 my car feels the same as it did with 8 egrees timing, except for the off boost which is better. I've been told that the retard is .1 per detent, so 12:00 on the knob would be one degree per pound of boost.
Interestingly, I was informed that if the knob is set to no retard (no clicks), then the unit will not retard at any range, being the equivalent of running full stock timing. This is contradictory to what others have posted about it retarding at mid-range even if set to no retard? I was also told that the unit adds timing in low and high RPM and also "affects" the air/fuel basically acting to "re-chip."
Does anyone "know" how this thing actually operates? A good explanation of where in the RPM range and boost what is being affected would be helpful, without giving away any proprietary info.
Has anyone run a timing light on this thing over the RPM band to see what their BTC install is actually doing under load? I still find it odd that when I dyno'd this thing my air/fuel ratios and torque curve looked extremely similar to pre BTC, given what the BTC is supoposed to be doing.
JRCivic, Mr. Detail?
First of all, it does NOTHING to fuel delivery. It only affects the ignition timing. There is no possible way it could. It simply doesn't connect to any fuel-related wires.
Second, don't assume that you get 6psi manifold pressure just because you have a 6psi pulley. I get 8.5psi max manifold pressure with my 6psi pulley.
With the BTC at 10 clickes, this translates to 8.5 * 1.0 = 8.5 degrees max retard = 7.5dbtdc timing at its' most retarded...
NOT
...6 * 1.0 = 6 degrees max retard = 10 ddbtdc timing at its' most retarded.
This could explain some 6psi folks saying that 10 clicks felt worse than pre-BTC 10 degrees timing.
Also, it seems like many people have inadvertantly hooked up to the Tach signal instead of the crank position sensor signal. This too causes loss of power.
If JR added the TPS relay functionality into the BTC, I think they would have a better, more rounded product.
I won't comment on things I'm not sure of. That's why I haven't touched some other points from the previous post.
Greg
Holden-
I don't understand how it could affect air/fuel either, but that info was from a very "direct" source.
As for boost pressures, etc. I agree with you, and I'm not worried that my setup is connected/functioning improperly. The retard function works, it will get more sluggish if I add retard, and if I take away retard, I'll get detonation. Just seems odd that the performance reads nearly identical if even only the timing is being advanced/retarded by the BTC.
As with you, I'm not sure how this thing functions or not, and there doesn't seem to be a consistent story of how it does. I was curious to see if someone does "know" that's willing to share?
Funny. I just postd something about this on another thread. Mine's is set at 12 o'clock and it DOES NOT feel the same as it was before install as the tip-in is defintely more responsive, as cpa pointed out. But I don't know if it's me, but top-end acceleration and speed seems to be a teeny bit slower than before. Anyone?
Adrian.
JRCIVIC, what if you don't hear anything even when you retard all the way to zero? http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/eek.gif
randomwalk101: Remember the BTC has it's own timing curve on top of the boost/retard settings. So if you dont' hear anything, it's because it is already retarding at key points.
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http://www.netbsi-kc.com/integra/
http://www.netbsi-kc.com/aa/
http://www.groupbuycenter.com/
First, I am unaware of any FUEL changes that the BTC makes... like Greg, I do not believe that there are any... there are NO wiring connections to create changes.
However, there ARE timing changes. Under normal operation, the BTC (with retard knob all the way left - NO retard) still advances the timing in the low rpm range, slightly retards in the mid range, and slightly advances in the high rpm range... JUST like a reprogrammed ECU. This is possible because the BTC watches the Crank position sensor. Since the crank position sensor reports its location 21 times during each 360' revolution, the BTC can anticipate when to fire each spark plug... allowing it to advance or retard.
To all on this board using the BTC:
Set it up and tune it the way the instructions say, don't use your own mathematics.
Reset timing to 16' BTDC. Start with the knob in the 12 o'clock position. Test drive the car. If NO pinging or detonation is heard, then move the knob one click LEFT (towards the minimum setting). Drive the car again.
Do this until Pinging or Detonation is HEARD. Once you reach this point, then move the knob TWO clicks right (towards the maximum setting). This gives you a safe margin to drive normally.
If you have an upgraded boost pulley, start your base timing 2' lower for every 2 psi of boost. IE: 14' BTDC @ 8 psi.
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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph