Gah! I bloody knew it!

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May 20th, 2004, 04:04 PM
GillyUK

Oh dear [img]frown.gif[/img]

Welcome back btw - glad you had a good time in Barcelona [img]smile.gif[/img]
May 20th, 2004, 04:04 PM
GillyUK

double post [img]redface.gif[/img]

[ May 20, 2004 01:05 PM: Message edited by: GillyUK ]
May 20th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Twizzle

Quote:

Originally posted by GillyUK:
Oh dear [img]frown.gif[/img]

*g* Don't worry, I was just letting off steam.

Still, I've proved my point and I won't be bothering to reply to anymore DH related threads again....EVER! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

Welcome back btw - glad you had a good time in Barcelona [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'd like to say that I'm glad to be back.......but I'm not! *lol*

*loves Barcelona*
May 20th, 2004, 04:17 PM
GillyUK

Hey - I wanna read what you wrote - what thread?? LOL!! Or have you edited it??
May 20th, 2004, 04:22 PM
Twizzle

Oh, it's on the Sony bbs. I just gave my opinion that neither solo DH nor SG had made any really good videos, apart from C&B. Of course, that's complete heresy and I'm at present wearing a hair shirt and birching myself to atone for my sins! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] lol
May 20th, 2004, 04:26 PM
GillyUK

Quote:

Originally posted by Twizzle:
Oh, it's on the Sony bbs. I just gave my opinion that neither solo DH nor SG had made any really good videos, apart from C&B. Of course, that's complete heresy and I'm at present wearing a hair shirt and birching myself to atone for my sins! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] lol

That's good [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now go sit on your hands and don't you dare have an individual thought again!! [img]smile.gif[/img]
May 20th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Twizzle

LMAO!

I'll try not to! [img]wink.gif[/img]

[img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img]
May 20th, 2004, 07:41 PM
sunhawk

*pets* it wasn't really that bad you know LOL *runs*
May 20th, 2004, 08:50 PM
RavenP

Quote:

Originally posted by sunhawk:
*pets* it wasn't really that bad you know LOL *runs*

[img]confused.gif[/img] i didn't think it was that bad either. just a few people disagreeing with what you siad. everyone has the right to an opinion , don't they [img]wink.gif[/img]
May 20th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Lainbrain

Having an opinion is a wonderful thing [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
May 20th, 2004, 09:59 PM
RavenP

Quote:

Originally posted by Lainbrain:
Having an opinion is a wonderful thing [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

you siad it!
what a boring place if not for opinions and differences of [img]wink.gif[/img]
May 21st, 2004, 03:44 AM
Twizzle

I look at and reply to ONE lousy DH related thread and what do I get? I get some person giving me grief just b/c they don't happen to agree with me! FFS, have these idiots never heard of a difference of opinion? I don't expect (or need) ppl to agree with me but I do expect them to allow me the courtesy of having MY own opinion. [img]graemlins/grrr.gif[/img]

*sighs* I knew that I should've stayed away.......
May 21st, 2004, 04:36 AM
Dryzabone

ah Terry [img]graemlins/girl_hug.gif[/img]

hands you a [img]graemlins/martini.gif[/img]
May 21st, 2004, 12:01 PM
Twizzle

Quote:

Originally posted by RavenP:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sunhawk:
*pets* it wasn't really that bad you know LOL *runs*

[img]confused.gif[/img] i didn't think it was that bad either. just a few people disagreeing with what you siad. everyone has the right to an opinion , don't they [img]wink.gif[/img] <hr /></blockquote>Raven dear, a) It was only one person with whose comment I got slightly peeved with and b) I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that you only post here to stir up shit. [img]wink.gif[/img]

[ May 21, 2004 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Twizzle ]
May 21st, 2004, 12:18 PM
Dryzabone

Quote:

Originally posted by Twizzle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RavenP:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sunhawk:
*pets* it wasn't really that bad you know LOL *runs*

[img]confused.gif[/img] i didn't think it was that bad either. just a few people disagreeing with what you siad. everyone has the right to an opinion , don't they [img]wink.gif[/img] <hr /></blockquote>Raven dear, a) It was only one person with whom I got slightly peeved with and b) I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that you only post here to stir up shit. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr /></blockquote>[img]smile.gif[/img]
May 21st, 2004, 12:20 PM
Juliet10

and b) I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that you only post here to stir up shit. [img]smile.gif[/img]
**************

You're bang on there, Terry.

Michelle

xx
May 21st, 2004, 12:34 PM
BBD

Gives Terry a smacked hand for daring to have an opinion of her own!!!! [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

On a more serious note, that's why I tend not to post my personal opinion on DH related things so much anymore..... it seems freedom of speech is frowned upon these days.
May 21st, 2004, 12:52 PM
Twizzle

See, I'm all for freedom of speech but it bugs the shit out of me when ppl are curt and downright rude in ther replies, especially if you dare to have an opinion that differs from their own. If someone says 'Oh, I disagree with that but you're entitled to your opinion' or words to that effect, then that's just peachy but when they put 'I totally disagree!!!' or 'You're totally wrong!!!' etc. etc. well then I consider that to be plain rude and more than a little annoying.

Perhaps I've got a thin skin *doubts that though lol*, but I'm sick to death of having to defend my OWN opinion. I don't ask anyone to endorse it or to agree with it but I do ask that ppl allow me to voice it without biting my head off.

Anyhoo, that was yesterday and today is another day. I can't even be arsed to see how many other ppl felt the need to rush in and tell me how wrong I am blah, blah, blah. *shrugs*

*goes back to my much preferred non-DH related 'net surfing* [img]wink.gif[/img]
May 21st, 2004, 04:56 PM
Dyan

Quote:

Originally posted by Twizzle:
See, I'm all for freedom of speech but it bugs the shit out of me when ppl are curt and downright rude in ther replies, especially if you dare to have an opinion that differs from their own. If someone says 'Oh, I disagree with that but you're entitled to your opinion' or words to that effect, then that's just peachy but when they put 'I totally disagree!!!' or 'You're totally wrong!!!' etc. etc. well then I consider that to be plain rude and more than a little annoying.

I'm going to jump in here if you don't mind (mostly because I'm at work and the *bleeping* language filters won't let me get into the thread at the anti board)

It seems to me that what may have frustrated you was the lack of conversation. I've found that even when people say 'you're entitled to your opinion', then they occasionally go on to post a one-sided detailing of why you are wrong and what they think. So the result sort of becomes as if you are being talked 'to' rather than being talked to. *okay, that didn't make sense* LOL What I mean is I don't think most of us expect or even want others to agree with us in every way, but most conversations have an air of give and take. There's some agreement, and some disagreement. It's not just 'this is what I think' tossed in your face as if it's the final word on the topic.

It is hard to post something only to watch it either be ignored as if you weren't present or (worst) having all the replies ....... I don't know, but it's not just disagreeing...... it's so TOTALLY disagreeing as if your point had zero merit to begin with.

Anyway, I read the bbs thread and that seemed to me what was missing. The give and take that we enjoy in conversations.
May 21st, 2004, 05:02 PM
Twizzle

^^ That's it EXACTLY Dyan and thank you for putting it into words for me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's the lack of any follow up conversation - almost like their comment is all that's needed to put their point(s) across. Whether or not it is intended, I find that that sort of posting style comes across as being very dismissive indeed.

Personally, I'm all for a good old debate as to the whys and wherefores and not just a 'you're wrong' or 'I disagree'. Where's the fun or indeed the intellectual stimulus in that?
May 21st, 2004, 05:12 PM
Dyan

I think that 'dismissive' is exactly the right word. And to me it doesn't matter how it's started with "you have a right to your opinion", it's still dismissive in the end.

Besides, no band or artist has ONLY wonderful videos or cds. lol Most have several stinkers in with some good ones. Even Darren.

Btw and only because I'm adding this everywhere I go today......... I have a new artist that I'm totally obsessed with. Gilli Moon. She is AMAZING and well worth checking out. I put a link to her stuff on the anti board if anyone gets curious. (and yes, I found some of her 'stinkers' too LOL)
May 25th, 2004, 02:12 PM
Katt721

well, you really should've known better! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
May 25th, 2004, 04:43 PM
Twizzle

Quote:

Originally posted by Katt721:
well, you really should've known better! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yeah, I really should have, shouldn't I? [img]wink.gif[/img] But, well you know me................. [img]tongue.gif[/img] lol
May 26th, 2004, 04:13 AM
Dryzabone

Quote:

Originally posted by Twizzle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Katt721:
well, you really should've known better! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yeah, I really should have, shouldn't I? [img]wink.gif[/img] But, well you know me................. [img]tongue.gif[/img] lol<hr /></blockquote>and I should have too [img]wink.gif[/img]

Sometimes feel like a member of DH's army with a colonel directing everyone.

Wanders back to add, as a fan I have to be true to myself and be honest in supporting that artist. I have made some very impulsive decisions in the last week or so because I felt things were just so very wrong, and before it clouded my view of the artist, I backed off and told myself the artist was in NO way responsible for others actions. I will not support what I believe is wrong.

[ May 26, 2004 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Dryzabone ]
May 26th, 2004, 07:19 AM
Angelgirl

Quote:

Originally posted by Dryzabone:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Twizzle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Katt721:
well, you really should've known better! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yeah, I really should have, shouldn't I? [img]wink.gif[/img] But, well you know me................. [img]tongue.gif[/img] lol<hr /></blockquote>and I should have too [img]wink.gif[/img]

Sometimes feel like a member of DH's army with a colonel directing everyone.

Wanders back to add, as a fan I have to be true to myself and be honest in supporting that artist. I have made some very impulsive decisions in the last week or so because I felt things were just so very wrong, and before it clouded my view of the artist, I backed off and told myself the artist was in NO way responsible for others actions. I will not support what I believe is wrong.

[ May 26, 2004 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Dryzabone ]<hr /></blockquote>I can see what you mean Barb, I have read stuff lately that has made me feel a bit 'off' towards DH and I am still a fan of his music and him (admits to this bit of bopperness) but I have virtually stopped reading all this other stuff now (how to or not to promo etc ) because it does cloud my image of DH and he can't help how some of his followers(!) behave.
May 26th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Dryzabone

Thanks Jan [img]smile.gif[/img]

I was beginning to feel like I am drowning with all this, someone needs to give me a hard slap I think. My feelings haven't just come about now, they have grown (and festered) since joining the bbs back in 2001. Anyway it's almost midnight, I am all stirred up, have a specialist appt tomorrow and don't feel in the least like I can sleep...silly me, lol. [img]redface.gif[/img]
May 26th, 2004, 04:47 PM
BBD

I've just been and read everything that's gone on "over there" and firstly a big hug to Barb and hope she's feeling ok.

The question I have is that if a person isn't working for a particular artist in an official capacity, then what gives them the right to post about how people should and shouldn't go about promo?

If it's an official request then fair enough but if it isn't then a certain somebody has a very high opinion of herself by thinking it's ok to try and tell fellow fans what is the right and wrong way to do things.

Just my opinion.......
May 26th, 2004, 04:53 PM
GillyUK

Quote:

Originally posted by Twizzle:
*hugs Barb* [img]graemlins/girl_hug.gif[/img]

Yes, I know that I said that I wouldn't ever go over to that evil place again *shudders* [img]wink.gif[/img] but, well you know me; I'm a nosy bitch and can't resist a good scrap so......

My main question is: is she or is she not working for DH? Judging by that article in her local rag, she is but is she now saying that she isn't? Also, why is an article that was printed in a small, local newspaper (that hardly anyone else in the world is going to read *lol*) deemed as being 'good promo' for DH? I can't imagine the population of that area being in the slightest bit interested in, or indeed even know who the f*** he is! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

p.s - not a mod, my arse! Maybe not a visible one but there are other ways to moderate a board, aren't there? [img]wink.gif[/img] LMAO

*skips off again*

Yes - and I am getting thoroughly pissed off at having my wrist slapped like I'm a naughty school girl from the non-mod

I'm quite capable of putting my point across and if I want to be shitty on that board I will!!

but I must remember to be more patient as it really is a virtue
May 26th, 2004, 05:04 PM
Twizzle

Quote:

Originally posted by BBD:
The question I have is that if a person isn't working for a particular artist in an official capacity, then what gives them the right to post about how people should and shouldn't go about promo?

If it's an official request then fair enough but if it isn't then a certain somebody has a very high opinion of herself by thinking it's ok to try and tell fellow fans what is the right and wrong way to do things.

Just my opinion.......

Well it's definately not just your opinion hun. There are plenty of other ppl who feel this way too but unfortunately, many of them seem to be too afraid of the consequences should they publically voice their opinion(s).

Quote:

Originally posted by GillyUK:
but I must remember to be more patient as it really is a virtue

LMAO!
May 26th, 2004, 05:20 PM
BBD

OK I'm going to add some more to this...

What pisses me off is the way things are said, for example NEVER EVER say this that and the other when making requests... what's going to happen if we do?? Will Darren never fall in love with us, get married to us and run away happily into the sunset with us lol!!!!* typed with the maximum sarcasm I can muster lol*

Sorry but a few over enthusiastic fans are NOT going to bring down the house of Hayes and ruin his carreer although from the reactions about over zealous promo episodes you would think that it would be the worst thing in the world to do and that those who do it are solely responsible for anything and everything that may go wrong.

I see what is happening with the posts about promo and how fans should and should not behave and the way I percieve it (this is just my own personal opinion)is as a form of bullying.

" Act as the in crowd do or suffer and be slated for it" is the message I get from what I'm reading elsewhere.
May 26th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Twizzle

I tell you Donna, all this nonsense really makes me want to ring up/e-mail ALL of the UK radio station and request ALL his songs for ALL of his fans, his Sony management and his 'team' just to thumb my nose at this whole ridiculous affair. The only things stopping me are a) I don't have the time to do it (or the inclination *g*), b) contrary to what certain ppl might think of me, I really wouldn't want to damage his ever dwindling UK career any further and c) well, I really don't give a shit *lol*. The ONLY reason that I'd consider doing any of this is if I thought I was getting one over on the self-serving; self-righteous; self-styled "Queen of the Fanbase" [img]tongue.gif[/img]
May 26th, 2004, 05:38 PM
BBD

Quote:

Originally posted by Twizzle:
I tell you Donna, all this nonsense really makes me want to ring up/e-mail ALL of the UK radio station and request ALL his songs for ALL of his fans, his Sony management and his 'team' just to thumb my nose at this whole ridiculous affair. The only things stopping me are a) I don't have the time to do it (or the inclination *g*), b) contrary to what certain ppl might think of me, I really wouldn't want to damage his ever dwindling UK career any further and c) well, I really don't give a shit *lol*. The ONLY reason that I'd consider doing any of this is if I thought I was getting one over on the self-serving; self-righteous; self-styled "Queen of the Fanbase" [img]tongue.gif[/img]

^ ^ ^ ^
LOL, that's really made me chuckle Terry!!

The sad thing is thought is that I used to enjoy going over there, I used to have a laugh over there and enjoy reading the posts, joining in etc, but now I very rarely log in and when I do it's just the same old shit all the time and to be honest I really can't be arsed with it any more!!!

Yep,I'm still a fan, yep I'm really looking forward to the new album but as for all the hyperactivity and the bitching and squabbles over there, count me out.... I've got 4 kids so I have enough of that at home LOL!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
May 26th, 2004, 05:51 PM
Twizzle

Quote:

Originally posted by BBD:
The sad thing is thought is that I used to enjoy going over there, I used to have a laugh over there and enjoy reading the posts, joining in etc, but now I very rarely log in and when I do it's just the same old shit all the time and to be honest I really can't be arsed with it any more!!!

Yep,I'm still a fan, yep I'm really looking forward to the new album but as for all the hyperactivity and the bitching and squabbles over there, count me out.... I've got 4 kids so I have enough of that at home LOL!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

I feel the same way Donna, although it was never my favourite DH bbs by a long way. I'm like you in that most of the time, I can't even be bothered logging in over there b/c it just the same old shit. I find the the great majority of the threads lack any real substance and too many are full of innuendo re the size of his todger (been there, done that! [img]tongue.gif[/img] lol) and that's not what it's about for me anymore.

Unfortunately, I tend to blame him for the actions of his more over-zealous, nutjob type fans and that's so unfair b/c it's not the poor sod's fault that a good percentage of his fanbase are certifiable, but that's how I feel. They make me so bloody irritated and annoyed that I tend to project those feelings onto on him (although I'm sure that if he knew, he wouldn't give a rat's arse! *g*)
May 26th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Dryzabone

Thanks ladies, I wish I could say I feel better, but then give it some time, just plain foolish.

Reading some of the replies clarified it, bullying, just the kind of thing that happened at school. Remembers the wonderful caring posts on Sony, especially the one where we were disgraceful and should all be ashamed of ourselves...guess it never changes.

Oh and once upon a time I used to enjoy it too. Usually when agitated I would use DH/SG music to calm me, not this time it actually made it worse because I have projected the actions of fans onto him and that alone makes me sad.

[ May 26, 2004 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Dryzabone ]

returns home from trip out and the cleaners have been in *sighs* knows which side the bread is buttered now loud and clear.

[ May 26, 2004 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Dryzabone ]
May 27th, 2004, 03:12 AM
Dyan

[quote]Originally posted by Dryzabone:

Quote:

Wanders back to add, as a fan I have to be true to myself and be honest in supporting that artist. I have made some very impulsive decisions in the last week or so because I felt things were just so very wrong, and before it clouded my view of the artist, I backed off and told myself the artist was in NO way responsible for others actions. I will not support what I believe is wrong.

And yet, we know that things don?t happen in a vacuum. It?s hard to know who and what starts the balls rolling. The artist isn?t responsible for other?s actions. But the artist is involved (as we've all seen from time to time), and I can?t forget that either. I just don?t know where that line is. Sometimes I wish that I could be a little mouse to see the who/what/where. Other times, I think not knowing is best because it keeps the fan aspect pure.

In the end, I think Barb is 100% on point about being honest to who we are and in our support.

*thinks*

I think I know where the line falls for me. If I can't be in a position to ask 'what the dickens were you thinking???', then I think I'd rather keep the fan part pure and not know at all. It's sort of looking behind the curtain to see the wizard. Once we do that, everything changes. So I either want to be involved and know or stay on the audience side of the curtain and love the show. But this in-between stuff that we see too often gets too ............. I dunno, weird.

At least for me. [img]smile.gif[/img]
May 27th, 2004, 03:26 AM
Dryzabone

You know I can't believe the state I've allowed myself to get into, over what....it's so idiotic. I'm sure on the other side they're laughing at me whilst I'm trying to control a full fledged panic attack, I hate this it's such a waste. It's so easy to avoid but I was drawn in and I just can't compete. Sorry I'm tired.
May 27th, 2004, 03:53 AM
Twizzle

*hugs Barb* [img]graemlins/girl_hug.gif[/img]

Yes, I know that I said that I wouldn't ever go over to that evil place again *shudders* [img]wink.gif[/img] but, well you know me; I'm a nosy bitch and can't resist a good scrap so......

My main question is: is she or is she not working for DH? Judging by that article in her local rag, she is but is she now saying that she isn't? Also, why is an article that was printed in a small, local newspaper (that hardly anyone else in the world is going to read *lol*) deemed as being 'good promo' for DH? I can't imagine the population of that area being in the slightest bit interested in, or indeed even know who the f*** he is! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

p.s - not a mod, my arse! Maybe not a visible one but there are other ways to moderate a board, aren't there? [img]wink.gif[/img] LMAO

*skips off again*
May 27th, 2004, 07:23 AM
Angelgirl

Having read this entire thread and the one over there, I have to ask the question - when did it become the role of a fan to undertake promoting anyway ?

I really don't understand this. as I said earlier some 'fans' behaviour reflects (for me at times) on my view of DH & his music, management etc. but now I have to ask is this his fault or the 'fans fault or my fault for assuming that people who dictate how the fans should behave have some 'agenda' from DH or are they just assuming the role of 'mod'or 'PR'(doesn't he have someone he pays to do that anyway.) I only joined the Dzine in Nov 2002 so missed all the SG stuff but even I can see a big change in the way topics are posted and people's attitude. Positivity is good but so is realism. and even negativity is healthy at times. I rarely look there nowadays and post even less. I do miss the laughs and fun and feeling of community it had initially but that has all disapeared As for the article mentioned. I agree with Terry - thats not going to help his career or hinder it - it really was a bit of non news fit for a small circulating local paper! All this has spoiled my enjoyment of DH music and fandom, I am still a fan and will buy his cd when it comes out - more curiosity than anything, but am steering clear of all the 'other stuff' that goes around the fan base.
I hope this all makes sense, I knew what I wanted to say but as often happens it is hard to put into the written word!

[ May 27, 2004 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Angelgirl ]
May 27th, 2004, 08:54 AM
DarrensPassion

Barb, I hope you are feeling a little bit better today, sorry yesterday was such a bad one for you [img]graemlins/girl_hug.gif[/img]

I don't think anyone should ever feel forced or coerced into requesting or voting for an artist. Nor should they be made to feel less of a fan or a bad fan if they don't want to do this type of thing. Everyone should have the right to find their own level of fandom that they feel comfortable with. If that means just buying the CD and enjoying the music then that's fine [img]smile.gif[/img]

For me personally, I will only make requests or do voting if Ifeel like doing so. And that's how it should be, up to the individual. I think perhaps maybe too much of this sort of thing on a mass scale is counter productive in the end as has been proved in the past and in any case that is what the record label should be doing. It's really their job to promote the artist not the fans. However, a little gentle support from fans here and there doesn't harm.

There seems to be a pressure cooker type atmosphere building and the fanbase really needs to get back to just enjoying the music and the artist without all this stress and tension.

Hands round the [img]graemlins/phone.gif[/img] 's and hopes everyone can relax a little [img]smile.gif[/img]

Janie xx
May 27th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Angelgirl

Quote:

Originally posted by DarrensPassion:
Barb, I hope you are feeling a little bit better today, sorry yesterday was such a bad one for you [img]graemlins/girl_hug.gif[/img]

I don't think anyone should ever feel forced or coerced into requesting or voting for an artist. Nor should they be made to feel less of a fan or a bad fan if they don't want to do this type of thing. Everyone should have the right to find their own level of fandom that they feel comfortable with. If that means just buying the CD and enjoying the music then that's fine [img]smile.gif[/img]

( A very good point and I agree, before the net there was (as far as I know) no pressure to be a certain level of fan)

For me personally, I will only make requests or do voting if Ifeel like doing so. And that's how it should be, up to the individual. I think perhaps maybe too much of this sort of thing on a mass scale is counter productive in the end as has been proved in the past and in any case that is what the record label should be doing. It's really their job to promote the artist not the fans. However, a little gentle support from fans here and there doesn't harm.

(Gentle support is good, voting on polls etc, it's this organised promo that I really don't want to get involved in or even understand. I read the hints about what happened in the US about Affirmation, perhaps someone could enlighten me, The episode with Schooly illustrates how fans can cause trouble.)

There seems to be a pressure cooker type atmosphere building and the fanbase really needs to get back to just enjoying the music and the artist without all this stress and tension.

(That would be great if that could happen but I think (some) people are on a roll now and may find it hard to get back to this level of fanship!)

Hands round the [img]graemlins/phone.gif[/img] 's and hopes everyone can relax a little [img]smile.gif[/img]

Janie xx

As always Janie you add clarity to my rambling thoughts. Also cannot get the hang of writing within quotes yet !! sorry

[ May 27, 2004 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Angelgirl ]

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