Stickmanship.Spin.Toss. & Flip

Hey fellas,

I'm sure there will always be some debate as to focus more on strict form and technique over having some showmanship on the kit. There are guys like Steve Smith who are technical gurus who also have some very entertaining stick tricks up their sleeves for crowds. There is also a slew of new guys including John Blackwell who studied up all the old skool cats to put on a cool visual display (suspended China behind his head. novel) as he pounds out the beats for Prince. Then, there are drummers who are not so appealing to see on stage, but are highly revered on tape.

What are you opinions on this issue? Would you place a certain emphasis on form as well as allocate a little time for your visual on stage?

I know that for some drummers, the visuals are distracting and gets in the way of the music. Others try to pull it off and suffer with their time and dynamics because the sticks are all over the place besides on the skins and metals.

For some of the rock cover tunes we're doing, I would love to get some ideas on some showmanship tools to woo some of the drunk crowds we play for. I know there must be a library of work done by cats in the past including Papa Jo Jones, Gene Krupa, and of recent Billy Ward.

If any of you have references or DVD's I can get a hold of while on the road, that would be GREAT!!!

[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

As Thomas Lang put it: "showbiz is the name of the game". And he has the best stick tricks I have EVER seen (maybe cause he has em all!).

I think that after putting plenty of time into technique/rudiments/groove etc - stick tricks would be a worthy (and fun) investment to make.
If you are mostly a session/studio drummer, then it is pointless - but if you play live a lot this could be a nice tool to have in the belt.

Think of all the mosnter drummers around - they all have stick tricks and even "gimmicks". It's true, there is no musical value in these "tricks", but there is flair and style involved. Eye candy is tastey.

I would look into the Thomas Lang DVD for stick tricks (an amazing chapter) as well as anything else he has to offer. Blackwell has some nice ones too... but his DVD is more along the lines of watching him, rather than learning from him.
Going way back, Lionel Hampton had some killer tricks (there is a segment of him on the blackwell DVD!). Maybe even dig up some books on 80's rock drumming! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I have been dabbling in this too (soome video clips on my website). Hope it helps!

I agree that showmanship is important, it definetely adds to the overall performance.
(I hate watching a dull group!)

Gerry Brown and Sonny Emory spring to mind with their stick tricks, it's sick.

Equally, a drummer needs to be able to PLAY first then he/she can look at incorporating tricks into their repertoire. It's like the icing on the cake.

Thomas lang's dvd set is pretty rockin. The stick tricks are just a bonus and what a bonus...WohoOo!

Go to drummerworld.com and check out some of the video clips. Some of the early jazz
guys were absolutely unreal.

Spinning is a nice way to add variety and visual effects while also being practical. I try to
be tasteful and appropriate and not over use it Sometimes I do something for people to
notice but usually when I spin and flip it's subtle and rarely does the average person
notice... If I'm spinning it's usually for a good reason. I spin on the way over from the
ride to the hat or visa-versa. . I have a certain little spin/flip I use to switch from
traditional to matched. . I flip and spin to switch from tip to butt I tend to use all parts of
the stick to get sounds so that kinda forces me to do it. I also love to find a little break or
stop in the music (once or twice per gig) that I can do a single (or sometimes double) flip
or a spin to add some spice. It's showmanship but it's great for adding some tension and
release to a section of music. Unless I drop the freakin stick then there is a
hhhhhuuuuggggeeeee release!

Once I saw Ed Shaughnessy at a clinic and he was playing, talking, flipping, spinning,
adjusting and drinking coffee all while grooving his azz off. It's all good

Yup, Langs DVD has an entire chapter dedicated to sticktrix and showmanship...he even shows how to use some of it in grooves...pretty cool stuff to watch...

I think John Blakwell's DVD goes into sticktricks as well...not sure though because I haven't seen it, but given the title of the DVD, I assume it's included...

Virgil is also a complete maniac when it comes to twirling...if you can get a hold of any videos with him soloing, it's quite a sight to see...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 11, 2004 07:17 PM: Message edited by: quitou ]</font>

Meh, I've never been a huge fan of stick tricks and stuff. I think there's always more stuff to work on before that. Instead of learning a cool trick to make your audience go 'woo' you could lay down a sick groove and make them go 'woo'. But I think it also depends on the style of music too...rock and pop stuff is cool, maybe bustin it out with Coltrane might not be so cool.

hey guys......
on this subject, I've seen Tommy Igoe do a really elaborate and impressive spin/trick to go from trad grip to matched and vice versa. He didn't really explain the motion though.
Anyone have any easy to explain ways to accomplish this that look good too?!!

Thanks!
Bryan

Stickmanship.Spin.Toss. & Flip ?


....toss is right!!
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Virgil is also killer in this regard.
I am more forgiving, when the
drumming is above par.

Lang does a great job and Gerry
Brown is one of my favorites.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 12, 2004 12:10 AM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Heheh Dazzler, I was wondering when you'd chime in about this..... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Hehehehehehe... check out this video:


CLW - DRUMMING - Tosser


[img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 12, 2004 11:14 PM: Message edited by: CLWarunki ]</font>

Nice one Roy! - Either you're goetting to know me by now, or I'm so shallow that you can p1ss deeper!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Chris, cheers for sharing that vid - a good example of, a tosser!!! hehehe!!

Ooooops, just had a thought. That ain't you is it?!

[img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img]

Don't play dumb with me, Riddler... er.. Dazzler.

Heheh, yes it is me and that's why it's called "Tosser"! It's important to not take yourself so seriously sometimes!

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Nice one!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Hey Chris,

That's cool man, you got it. Just don?t poke your eye out! Good luck on your road trip,
from seeing your video, it looks like you play pretty relaxed. You should adjust to the gig
just fine.

Thanks diddle,

All the best!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Yeah, JoJo Mayer is THE MAN!

Those clips are from the Modern Drummer '97 Fest... I have this on VHS and it is amazing. Seriously THE BEST stick tricks I have seen, next to Thomas Lang. The guy can do it all!

I'm not a big fan of that too.
Have you ever seen Vince go through this kind of things ?
Ah, yes when he replace his glasses with his left hand while playin' !!! Amazing !!!
;-)

note: blackwell's dvd is an imposture.
note2: I must admit that S.Smith struck me out with the way he controls the famous "balance point" (With V.Wooten). Ah Mr Buddy Rich.........

Speaking of sticktricks, go to drummerworld and check out some new video clips that they posted of JoJo Mayer...some pretty amazing stuff!!!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Yuk from Paris:
note: blackwell's dvd is an imposture.
note2: I must admit that S.Smith struck me out with the way he controls the famous "balance point" (With V.Wooten). Ah Mr Buddy Rich.........

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What does this mean: "blackwell's dvd is an imposture" ?!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Steve Smith and his amazing hi-hat tricks!

I mean this DVD has nothing to do with a pedagogical drumming video.
It's for the guy's fan who only want to tell "wow this man is killin" but we don't learn anything.
That's only my small opinion and as far as I don't like the "circus sticks things."
But no one tell me if Vince does this kind of stuff....anyone ??
;-)

Sonny Emory is another fine contemporary player who has really exceptionally impressive stick tricks [if someone here hadn't already mentioned him].

Virgil's stick tricks are pretty darn incredible AW.

& as Pete C says, when you can back it up with the kind of playing that he [Virg] does, there's no way you can make fun of it. Virg is the total package when it comes to elite fusion drumming AWA showmanship visuals. He virtually puts almost every other drummer in this category to shame. Some of the more popular rock, metal, & speed guys' ego's took a much needed excercise in a little humility when he burst onto the scene [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] .

Virg is the
Vinnie/Novak-meets-Weckl-meets-Chambers of DB/rock/fusion drumming, AFA technique, phrasing ideas, time manipulation [for lack of better descriptn], along with added impressive visuals go, IMO. But it's not like I haven't said this b4... ;cp

If you've never seen Virg's "Power Drumming" or the MDF '97 vids, then you will be quite surprised...& amazed. NTM you'll be needing to re-schedule some more "woodshed"... [img]eek.gif[/img] ;cp

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 16, 2004 12:49 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

How about JoJo Mayer? I saw a video of him recently and he seems to have a lot of fun with his stick tricks. I believe he also works as a magician, so maybe that's where it comes from.

Didn't mean to repeat Pete C's post...just an echo...

The s/tricks don't bother me one bit if they're genuinely good, hard-worked, & creative, AND as long as the playing can back it up - such as Virg, Lang, Emory, Jo JO, G Brown, Marco, et al.

I had forgotten to mention Gerry; saw him w Stanley Clarke's group last summer & he was way cool. Of course, he's been around/'famous' for quite a while now...

AFA Vinnie's concern, I've never seen him do tricks...he "don't have to" ...he performs magic wit da rhythm as it is... [img]wink.gif[/img] ...but then so does Virg [img]redface.gif[/img]

Can anyone provide any pointers or resources (preferrably free!) that can explain how to do a, (to put in the Thomas Lang vernacular), a "real" stick twirl.

I've been trying to figure this out for weeks now. Tom indicates that you twirl the stick around your index finger one way then the other. But it looks like it's continually spinning around in one direction.

Thanks!

I'm not sure about Lang, but you might be referring to the twirl forward/away from you over the top of the 1st/index finger, then in between/under it & [over] the 2nd ['birdie'] finger, & then at this point using the thumb under the stick to help bring it back up & over the index again...trying not to let the stick slide in eiter direction away from the 'fulcrum'/grip point[s]. Work on this for WEEKS until you build up speed & control. Isn't easy at first.

DEF easier to do downward [forward away from you] than upward [backward towards you].

Don't know how practical it is other than for show [duh]. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
[That was for all the toss-haters in da haus. Why all the hate..."gib sum lub"...Don't be a T-Hater... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 20, 2004 02:42 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>