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A friend from church, who is moving to Thailand with his wife for the rest of their lives to be missionaries, has been challenging us with the following passage from Paul's letter to the Christians in Colossae:
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..." (1:24)
Whadduya think?
here's what reggie kidd says on this verse, what is left unfilled in the "end times" timetable (not to be confused with a chart) is the sufferings of the church, something the OT prophets foresaw and Christ. it does not deal w/ Christ's work on the cross, hence paul's reference to his suffering on behalf of the church. i agree w/ reggie cuz he is my teacher and he is right most of the time.
The sufferings of the church. Exactly, I think. One of the things my friend [edit] zeros in on is the idea (supported by the evidence) that in lands where there are missionaries' graves, there you'll find a real local church. "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church."
In other words: "Church, there's still some suffering to do." A message which isn't believed by most Western Christians.
Where in the OT would you say the sufferings of the church are foreseen by the prophets? I've always thought of it in NT categories: "a servant is not above his master," etc.
And what do you mean by "end times timetable?" I think I know what you mean, but, what do you mean? [img]smile.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 15, 2005 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Mastedon Farm ]</font>
what is was meant by "end times timetable" was certain things that must take place before the kingdom comes, such as paul's discourse in thessalonians. and you are right, mostly this is thought of in NT terms and ideas, however, many in the reformed, as well as other, tradiations see the church in the OT as the nation of Israel. so when prophets talk about the suffering of the nation, many see the church. some interprete Isaiah's suffereing servent as the nation of israel and hence the church. an interesting book on the church to read is called "the next christendom" (i think) i forgot the author. it talks about how only 20% of the the church in the next few years will be western and white.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know that, like yourself, I've been gravitating toward Reformed thought for the past few years, and agree with the NT Church/OT Israel correlation (insofar as I've understood it), especially as it regards ecclesiology (i.e., "Just who are the people of God, and how did they get that way?"). But it still seems to me that the sufferings of OT Israel had more to do with their own rebellion and rejection of Yahweh and less to do with their faithfulness to His calling, Egyptian slavery notwithstanding. The Wilderness Wandering, the various defeats during Conquest of Canaan, the suffering during the period of the Judges, Assyrian and Babylonian captivity - all these were sufferings which were a result of God's "promise" that if Israel turned away from Him, He would turn away from Israel (Deuteronomy 28:15ff.). This is "punishment" suffering, not the kind of suffering Paul means in Colossians, I think.Quote:
many in the reformed, as well as other, tradiations see the church in the OT as the nation of Israel. so when prophets talk about the suffering of the nation, many see the church. some interprete Isaiah's suffereing servent as the nation of israel and hence the church.
Many of the woes much of the Church faces today are certainly the result of rejecting varioius aspects of God's covenant with us in Christ. But the suffering of Paul, "filling up what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ" can't possibly be the same kind of suffering, can it?
I agree that Isaiah's suffering Servant is Israel, but only insofar as we understand Jesus to be the True Israel, the one who truly "wrestled" and came out the victor over sin and death.
yes, you are right joe, there is not a one-to-one correlation w/ israel and the church (why i'm still not an infant baptist yet) but the suffering of israel is not just due to covanent breaking seen from another perspective. Judges 2 20-3:2 talk about the nations israel left in the land thus breaking the covanent and bringing pain and affliction yet God did this to test Israel and teach them warfare. so the suffering of Israel was due to sin yet it was also part of God's plan to test and train Israel. I think the same can be said of the church which makes david bazaan's words all the more powerful 'if this is only a test, i hope that i'm passing, cuz i'm losing steam, and i still want to love you'
Hm. Yeah, of course in the Sovereign's way of doing things, He seems to bring about His purposes in just the opposite way in which we'd expect. Thus, "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first," and victory over death comes through a murder.
But I think that, with that as our backdrop, as we look at OT Israel we also have to acknowledge that (as you do) their suffering was punishment for unfaithfulness. I guess I'd just point out to some such thoroughly covenant thinker that the categories of "consequences for real decisions" and "God's sovereign plan" should be kept distinct. Er, rather, that we not write off the former because we believe strongly in the latter.
EDIT:
With that last couple lines I don't mean to try to take some sort of "middle ground." I believe very, very strongly in the total sovereignty of God over EVERYTHING - NOTHING happens apart from Him bringing it to occur.
So while I agree with the "from another perspective" observation, I just think that in the context of a discussion on the sufferings of OT Israel we should talk about their suffering like the authors of the Bible talk about it, and they clearly link Israel's sufferings to their disobedience first of all, and secondly to God's sovereign plan.
And as I think about it, there certainly are instances where God talks about their sufferings in terms of His plan, especially in "refining" and "potter's wheel" imagery.
A part of the puzzle is (and Dr. Caneday and Dr. Schreiner's book The Race Set Before Us is very helpful here) that prophetic language is meant to illicit a response: repentance and faith, or hardening and judgement. We are held accountable for our response to God's prophets, and thus, I think, the appropriate emphasis on Israel's disobedience as the cause for their sufferings.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 17, 2004 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Chasing Sophia ]</font>
Oh, I forgot. Pick up Achilles Heel if you haven't already. Good songs. And it gets you a password to access free MP3 downloads at the Pedro the Lion site - live stuff from the current tour.
A related thought on suffering:
In Job 42, the end of the story, I ran into something I'd never seen before. God tells Job's friends, "My wrath is kindled against you..., because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."
So they went and did that, "and the Lord restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold."
I was totally floored: A man who endured suffering and testing at the hands of Satan, yet remained blameless, being the mediator for his friends who were not blameless, receiving God's glorious riches after he had completed the priestly job God had given him??? Kinda sounds like another character in the story.
Jesus is EVERYWHERE in the OT.
I'm new to the HotBoard world and I hope I'm not in the wrong by asking this here, but what do you all mean by the OT? Thanks
No worries.
NT = New Testament
OT = Old Testament
We sent them today.
In his address to the congregation, our brother repeated his desire to fill up what is missing in the afflictions of Christ for the Thai people.
Pastor told about the sending of William Carey, how that small and weak group of four pastors from England sent Carey to India. They likened India to a mine shaft, where they wanted to see what treasures God would have there (i.e., people to be saved for God's glory). But they needed a man to go down the mine.
Carey said he would go down, if they would hold the rope.
Find a missionary and help hold his or her rope.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 15, 2005 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Mastedon Farm ]</font>
Quite a moving and glorious service. One that brought glory to God!