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Hey fellow motorheads, TOO can give us a great deal on 310 or 370cc injectors if enough people are interested. Also headers and exhausts and other stuff he mentioned on the list can be had for a great deal from Endyn. Interested???
[This message has been edited by zip (edited December 29, 1999).]
I'm interested! Please post more info.
I asked Larry the same question and I'm glad I can get the answer (even if it's from someone else.)
Although, I don't see in the list any piston, rod, any internal engine mod listed. Is that really not a problem for a 6-8psi SC?
Printed out already! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
Thanks again zip!
[This message has been edited by redintegra (edited December 29, 1999).]
The thing that disturbs me is that he said B16 at the end and that the B18's don't handle the boost as well.
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Silvino Orozco
'97 Integra GS-R w/JRSC,JR Fuel pump, AEM Cold Air Intake, Powerstop rotors/Axxis Metal Master brake pads, A'PEXi Dunk Exhaust, J&S Safeguard unit
I think he got it backwards, because the B18C's are stronger than the B16's....someone wanna ask him that..........
Nope, he's right. He's always claimed that the B16's perfect rod to stroke ratio is suited well for forced induction at boost pressures 10-15psi. Endyn has tested a stock B16 above 10psi for extended periods of time without failure. The B18C's on the other-hand are on the edge at 10psi. Just paraphrasing what he has said in the past conversations... don't kill the messenger.
[This message has been edited by zip (edited December 29, 1999).]
He he, I was just wondering, well that is interesting....Well, I guess I will quit school so that I can afford the 2000+ dollars worth of mods he listed above http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif, actually, if I didnt have to buy a new freakin transmission(well rebuild it atleast) and clutch(Clutchmasters Stage III by the way http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif, then I would be able to afford all the other crap...
[This message has been edited by CROM (edited December 29, 1999).]
Internaly the b16 has a better rod -to- stroke ratio... that means that in the b16 the piston is putting less stress on the cylinder walls the rod angle is less severe it is closer to pushing the piston straight up and down, as with the b18 it really pushes hard against the wall because of the angle of the rod, and when you do that in a boosted application one slight dentonation at the wrong time and you will have a piston hanging out of your block.
B16's are more optimal period.
I have the best rod to stroke ratio, it takes 3 hands to give my rod one complete stroke
*can anyone tell I am bored? Anyone got AOL?, I am at work by the way!
[This message has been edited by CROM (edited December 29, 1999).]
That is unless you improve the rod to stroke ratio in a B18C by increasing the rod length without destroking it http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
just curious (and don;t take this the wrong way), but is he contracted with QUAIFFE and therefore shows more "bias" to that diff ? I'm curious if he's tried a KAAZ diff or any other clutch type LSD ...
Also, why not MSD 8mm ignition wires ?
Thanks,
-Greg
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94 Civic FROG
435HP/289 lb-ft. torque.
11 Second Club.
I was talking to TOO about staged mods for my JRSC here's the scoop:
<ul>[*]
I've just completed the list. It'll be tomorrow before I'll be able to send
you the killer prices on the components, if that's ok.
Recommended Components For Safe 10 psi Operation
1. J&S SafeGuard (any high performance application, N/A or FI)
2. Larger capacity fuel pump: The stock pump isn't adequate for 6 psi, let alone any more boost. The Walbro pumps are adequate to 10 psi, but no more. If you plan on more, do the Bosch pump we use.
3. Fuel Injectors: We don't consider the stock injectors adequate for even 6 psi. It's essential to go to a 310-cc injector to properly feed a blown Honda engine, especially in the 8-10 psi boost range.
4. Fuel System: The JR fuel regulator is an excellent component, but in order to run the larger injectors, an additional regulator is necessary to lower fuel pressure and reduce fuel flow when at idle or other non-boosted
driving conditions. The B&M Command Flow modification to the stock regulator carries out this duty exceptionally well. Working in conjunction with the JR regulator, this will allow one to achieve exceptionally clean running with enough injector to produce safe power in upper boost ranges.
5. Ignition: We highly recommend the use of an MSD BTM amplifier. Greater cylinder pressure requires a higher voltage spark, that also has a longer duration to light variable mixtures encountered under boosted circumstances. The MSD provides that capability and more. The BTM feature might not be presently needed, but when you begin looking for "more" the feature could
come in handy. The BTM also has the "soft touch" rev limiter, which is much easier than Honda's built in system, especially in a boosted climate.
6. Plug Wires: The best going are the 8.5-mm Magnecores for your application. These are one example of where bigger isn't better, as the 8.5 mm cables really out perform the 10 mm units that they produce for "looks".
7. Cam Pulleys: We do highly recommend adjustable cam pulleys for tuning purposes with blowers. We have had good success with most, but the SkunkWorks units seem to be made of the best materials and the most
reliable. It's a necessity to scribe the pulleys for true reference points before installing them, but once referenced, you're home free.
8. Air Induction: A properly designed induction tube with air cleaner should be used. I don't favor tubes that are of small consistent diameters, as the column of air in the tube is to slow to properly react to a supercharged engine's needs. Although, a cold air box is needed, the short large diameter
induction tubes are the correct route to go. They are also somewhat less expensive. Do not, under any circumstances, use one that tapers smaller as it approaches the throttle body. I don't care what anyone says, throttle
bodies like slow moving air to draw from, and to do them right, the tube should actually grow larger as it nears the throttle body.
9. Headers: Blown engines have nothing in common with their N/A counterparts. The headers based on TriY configurations and long 4 tube designs simply do not perform as well under pressure as the short primary
4-1 designs. The Kamikaze is very similar in size and length to our best R&E headers and its performance is also the best of any "available" header on the market. Don't let the price fool you either, for a blower engine, this is the ticket and money doesn't equal better performance here.
10. Exh. Systems: All of our testing over the years has clearly shown that blown engines like to have exhaust systems that present very little backpressure. Since a restrictive exhaust system can make boost gauge readings higher, this is another instance, where making the trip out easier, will actually drop the boost on the gauge and make the car accelerate harder. Scavenging isn't a necessity, as with N/A engines, as the exhaust gets quite a push during overlap by the blower pressure. 3" diameter systems seem to work the best with blowers. Remember that additional exhaust area must be created to make more power. Measure the dual exhaust pipes on a high performance V-6 or V-8 car with similar power to yours. Calculate the respective areas then add them together. I think you'll see that they typically more area than the single 3" tube. Also recommended is a 3" CAT to spread the area for the exhaust travel without restriction.
The components that we've identified as being the most efficient and easiest to install are from Thermal Research and Development.
11. Clutch and Flywheel: The best clutch combination of any we've tested is the ClutchMasters Stage 3 segmented Kevlar unit. The Kevlar is long lasting and easy on engagement, so there's no chatter. The material also permits a tiny amount of slippage on gear changes prior to complete lock-up. This might not seem an advantage, but consider that the slip will cause the
entire driveline to suffer reduced shock loadings, so component breakage
(including axle) will not occur. The slip will also help you from blowing the front tires off the car in second and third gears.
The CM aluminum flywheels are also our pick when it comes to reducing rotating mass for quicker acceleration and deceleration. They are highly recommended and offer a much better alternative to lightening flywheels,
which is extremely dangerous.
12. Limited Slips: I'll say this and no more. You can buy several less expensive differentials before investing in a Quaife, but you'll finally end up with one. We've managed to break every unit repeatedly, except the Quaife units. We have yet to break one on 5 years trying and, although there are
some torsion style units (including the R Types) available, not one can put the traction to the surface like the Quaifes.
Having the ability to accelerate off turns without worrying about "going straight" makes performance driving a pleasure and not a job. The Quaifes also settle the cars down on deceleration and make transitional pedal
movements very sure without upsetting the car's chassis. You have to drive a car with one to believe it. Do to growing up with RWD, I still like it, but, regardless of money, my
Hondas are still the most drivable cars and the most fun cars I've ever known. I think you'd have to take me back to racing karts to find an equal, but they're not streetable.
This pretty much sums up the parts necessary to do everything right with no down side or time for the B16 clan. Keep in mind that you can not compare a B16 with either B18 engines. While externally the same size, the internal geometry of the respective engines is so different that you can't think of
both simultaneously. The B16 is about as optimum as one could build an engine, where the B18s are at the other extreme of the spectrum. So, the B16 is the best engine that Honda's yet produced and it can also easily handle boost that would cripple the B18's.
I hope this gives you some things to think about. These mods do not need to be done all at once. The fuel system components and the ignition/safeguard should be first and the rest can follow...probably the intake and headers next, exhaust system, then the dirivline stuff as needed. Please do not lower the crap out of your car. About 1.5 inches would be the maximum to do safely. With a blower, these cars can generate tremendous speeds very quickly and I've thanked my stars on many occasions when I've
gotten in too deep on occasion. The suspension mods saved my ass. You have to have adequate suspension travel to negotiate turns on the uneven roads we have in the real world and dropping the car might look like
a cool race car that runs on a glass smooth road track, but I don't encounter those situations very often. I tell you this, because looking back, I don't see how most of my friends ever made it through our speed obsessed days...some didn't. I just want you
to know that we all care about you guys and we want you to learn and have fun doing it, but we don't want to see people getting hurt. When a driver running our equipment is hurt, it hurts us as well. We deal with all our cus
tomers personally and they all become our friends here. Feeling like we contributed to an injury or worse has made us think about leaving racing to pursue other endeavors we have going here on numerous occasions, so please be careful.
Sincerely,
Larry
What do you guys think?
[This message has been edited by zip (edited December 29, 1999).]
Wow. That was some great reading in there.
This one's gonna be saved and printed out.
Thanks for posting that Zip. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
He's tried all the LSD's. He only picked Quiaffe because they worked the best for him.
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Silvino Orozco
'97 Integra GS-R w/JRSC,JR Fuel pump, AEM Cold Air Intake, Powerstop rotors/Axxis Metal Master brake pads, A'PEXi Dunk Exhaust, J&S Safeguard unit
how's it go?
open diff ... ------------
ITR diff..... --=-==------
quaife....... -==-==------
Kaaz......... ============
sorry..i don't know how to do turns with characters
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RacerX, Lip, ChicknWing, whatever.
94' GSR, 13.38's NA and counting down. Type GSR-R...what a wonderful feeling 9100rpm's is!!!
one is similar to the torqsens design, i.e. type R or honda diffs, s2k, nsx, etc. the other is clutch type meant for racing. the kaaz I did the group buyin for was 1.5WAY hard ... it works well for drag, autoX, street driving and road racing. It takes much abuse and is used by some of the most powerful Skylines in Japan. The 1.5way hard locks the discs as more load is given, i.e. you step on the gas, it realeases when you come off the gas...it also locks whent eh wheels are turned, so if you locked the wheels left or right and tried to push the car, it will be hard to push cause when you try to move the car oyu apply load and the clutches lockup.
Price is way cheaper now, but after Jan 31, prices will go up to reflect the YEN rally earlier this year but the diffs will still be less than Autotech's prices for QUAIFFEs.
-Greg
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94 Civic FROG
435HP/289 lb-ft. torque.
11 Second Club.
The quaife is the Automatic Torque Biasing Differential type and the kaaz is the clutchpack.. but wouldnt you think that the
Automatic Torque Biasing Differentials would be stronger than that of the clutchpack?
And the Quaife would also last longer? I am sure that neither of the 2 comes with a warranty etc...And after a while the clutch packs tend to wear out opposed to gearing which wouldnt, ack! who knows just throwing this out there for opinions on the subject.
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Fire breathing, methanol guzzling, 9000 hp b18b.
Doesn't a lockup clutch type diff work best in straight line acceleration, where a torque biasing diff also works well in turns?
no, clutch type has ntohing to do with straight line acceleration, both types work the same, one is more susseptable to breaking, the gear type, this usually happens when roadracing or autocrossing where one wheel lifs off the ground and the other takes all the torque bias then all of a sudden the wheel grabs again and the sudden shock breaks the helical gears. The honda diffs and Quaiffe are quite similar in nature, however the Quaiffe has more bias because of the angle in which the gears are cut. As fo rthe discs, they also have their downside (would you believe), they need rebuilding/replacing when they are worn (usually takes 2 seasons of FULL racing or 150K miles of "amatuer" abuse (iow, people like us).
The discs grab quite well and can withstand torture ... a lot more that helical gear'd types.
I also believe MUGEN, Cusco, ATS and other major companies use clutch types ... all being very similarly designed.
-Greg
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94 Civic FROG
435HP/289 lb-ft. torque.
11 Second Club.
The Quaiffe has a lifetime warranty. You break it they replace it free. Just ask any dealer. Good reason to buy one if you are planning on a good bit of abuse http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
Will
dublocivic - I'm pretty sure the Quaiffe has an unlimited Lifetime Warranty.
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Sammy
s/c'd '94GSR
yeah, it's evenly spaced apart but that's the idea ...
I've personally seen too many QUAIFFEs blowup and damage the bell housing while at it... not to mention that they are not as efficient as the Spoon or KAAZ diffs.
As for the ignition wires, hmmm.
-Greg
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94 Civic FROG
435HP/289 lb-ft. torque.
11 Second Club.
Greg,
What is the difference in operation of the KAAZ from the Quaife? what make one better than the other? Except the KAAZ is a tad cheaper correct?
Actually, conventional Torsen style diffs transfer no torque if one wheel looses total traction (i.e. lifts off). Therefore, it is xtremely difficult to break from shear transfer, you have to put alot of power through one. On the other hand, clutchpack diffs in general cannot transfer more than 40-50% of the torque-load from side to side, and are notorious for wearing out and needing to be rebuilt. I am sorry, but for most people's purposes, the "install it and forget it" nature of the Type-R or Quaiffe Diff makes them the better choice.
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I made $150 in November, just for surfing the net!!!
Find out how you can do the same at VTeCno's Get Paid to Surf Site!
well, everyone has their own set of mods and eventually hit a really big torque spec, if you think the TorqSens will hold up then by all means, thats your perogative, I've seen too many broken in my experience and even cars who simply made 130 lb-ft broke them ... I'm perfectly happen with my KAAZ unit and would get it again if I had too all over again. I've even done some driving manuevers with the KAAZ unit that I wouldn;t dream of doign with the R LSD I had ...or the QUAIFFE.
BTW, it's not the torque transfer that break the torqsens, it's the sudden release of torque from wheel lifting then transfer of torque when the wheel starts tryignt o grab, the shock is what breaks it ... seen that many times in AutoX... had 3 QUAIFFEs in all my VW's and know 4 guys with QUAIFFEs in their Hondas... or had anyway, they all have new trannies now and KAAZ units. One went back to stock R LSD.
Take care,
Greg-
what's UP JRSC peeps: damn if 10psi req. all that shitz that Larry character listed...i be one broke azz sucka...wid that amt. of $$$ dumped into a teg--i might as well...buy a s2000 or a used NS-X!...but, its all yo money!
how did that Larry smuck come to the conclusion that the stocker fuel injectors on a 6psi kit aint adequate?--JR jacking us? by not telling?? why i gots to buy them 310-cc injectors? how much are they? and i heard them Unorthodox pulleys f--k your shitz up cuz they make like shitz!--Magnacor's boots popoff the valve covers and they hella expensive!, did this guy test all the headers out there like SCC test? 3" exhaust usually not enough backpressure and causes losses in yo low-end torque for highend gains, 1.5 inch drop would need a camber adj kit or suffer excess tire wear and lowering beyond 1" aint gonna make a teg handle any better; usually worse! is this all jus some more spout'n out at the mouth? or are there any dynos ta support any of this? don't hate cuz these are some of the shitz i've exp. or found out from others...i'm jus want'n to know too?
peace.
Did anyone see that Episode of Tom Green called "Hip Hop Camping"....?
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Fire breathing, methanol guzzling, 9000 hp b18b.
Did anyone see that Episode of Tom Green called "Hip Hop Camping"....?
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Fire breathing, methanol guzzling, 9000 hp b18b.
dublocivic: whas UP!--nah, didn't see that episode...but, was it bout ya double posting, dublocivic?
peace.
Hey guys look at this old post. You can actually read what Code was trying to explain. Hehehe.... http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
B16A vs B18C
I've done the switch from GSR to B16A... That was a big mistake. I've known about TOO before most of you guys from the importracing website, way back when the hot topic was the 11 sec n/a outkast crx (old skool joke) and personally I have yet to see TOO ever deliver on any of his promises. Basically a fully built b16A vs a fully built GSR, the GSR wins hands down. the GSR has about 100+ more potential horsepower. On pump gas the GSR not only makes more power but also at lower boost. Rod/Stroke is a bunch of BS when it comes to drag, given that the motor will only be buzzing at extreme rpm for a short period. Perhaps in a road racing scenario Rod/Stroke would be a major factor. I've spent alot of money on my motor and realistically I'd be jumping for joy if I could break 400 whp. Given the same mods on a GSR I would expect to break atleast 400 whp. Someone please convince me that I'm wrong so I won't have to tear apart a perfectly good GSR motor and have that resleeved and make me broke as fuck. My final conclusion is no more listening to TOO for me. In addition, I like my KAAZ lsd alot.
in regards to the MSD BTM, i would go with the JR BTC instead.
As for clutch, go w/ ACT HPP and street disc.
I know some rally drivers here and they all agree that Quaife diff are not made for them, they'll break them in no time. On the other hand, I'm really happy with mine, it does what I want it to do and I've never seen ===-===-== with it, only =========== and the 100+ feet burnout I did yesterday clearly proves it.
[This message has been edited by Civic TSI (edited August 27, 2000).]
2 of my friends have the Kazz units and 1 has the quaife and I must say that the quaife is the winner in that area. The kazz make some god awlful noises, grind, clank, clunk, its just nasty. Its sounds like something is broken all the time and you can "feel" it in the turning of the car. Im going to fet the quaife, all I have to do is save and get the clutch and stuff.
just my two cents
nick
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95 GSR 4-DR w/minor bolt-on looking for boost!
if you properly break in the KAAZ it doesnt make that much noise, just a light ratcheting sound. Its a race product so what do you expect?
I understand that its for racing Im just saying for that amount of $ the quaife more worth it. How do you break in a diff? They both got them installed with a new clutch and they both waited the right amount of time for break in, so I dont know how much "break in" factor there is...?
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95 GSR 4-DR w/minor bolt-on looking for boost!
KAAZ you have to break in by doing figure 8's for like 30min. I'd have to check my instructions, I haven't done it yet. KAAZ's are sturdier than quaife. Glad I got a one.
thanks vactor for the clairification.
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95 GSR 4-DR w/minor bolt-on looking for boost!
Greg (vtec4gs),
I am stunned that you know of so many Quaife failures in Honda applications... Ralph at Autotech claims that they have not seen the first failure !!! So, have your friends send them in to be inspected... if there are modifications/improvements that need to be made to the design, I believe that Quaife would make them. As of now, they have not had any reason to improve on the design.
Incidentally, BOTH of my Quaife LSD's work just fine... and I drive my cars like I hate 'em.
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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph
Diffs:
the Kaaz is meant for racing, and explicitly has NO warranty. the break in is a joke, as it did NOTHING for the 2 GSR Kaaz's i know of. both did ~45 minutes of "8"s in my neighborhood lot, and changed fluid. both sound broken, and people in the street comment on this (pedestrians). the instructions also state that the fluid must be changed every 3000 _km_ and the unit rebuilt every 30,000 _km_. a;so, the ===__=== debate of a burnout has nothing to do with a diff, as the length / mass of the axles determine torque to the wheels, and this is why the ATB behaves differently, as each axle can only handle so much, and one can see it transfering the power in the different skid marks. Quaife has a FULL lifetime warranty, and Ralph at Autotech is also nice guy :P
either one will transform your car into a real performer. the question really is one of personal preference. try to drive cars with both, and see what works for you. in my mind, the quaife warranty and smooth operation outweighed the non-existant 'better' performance of a clutch type.
I hate my Kaaz. Since starting to drive it everyday it is way tooo loud, it acts weird in slow corners making more noises and causing actual bumping and jumping in the wheels. Hard to describe, but not hard to forget. As well no warranty and the need to rebuild at an undisclosed interval (one that no one can really help with) and change fluid as often as your oil really sucks. On the other hand it does what it is supposed to, it transformed the car. I drove a Quaiffe and my only complaint is the weird way it pulls back and forth when you accellerate hard, where mine just locks dead straight and goes. In the corners they feel the same. But Quaiffe is QUIET and no rebuild expense (500 bucks for removal and parts) and I think it is worth every penny above the Kaaz. So in the end buy a Quaife, you'll be happier. I will buy one when this thing needs rebuilding since I want less maintenence rather than more.
And if Larry hasnt broken his yet with the monster of a car he has, I really doubt anyone could break it. I seriously think you would need to be incompetent to break it, but on the same token I think that Quaife america might be under reporting to the public how many are actually broken or defective.
Steve