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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Turismo:
I have a 4B from Tom Payne with a map for a 9:1 JRSC GSR @ 9psi that he compensated for the leaning out on a 10:1 motor. It doesn't do it.
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I have the same map and have made some changes to it, but it has worked very well for me.
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In fact I've tried EVERYTHING imaginable to cure it, including trying many different ROm's with large increases in fuel in the needed areas and only see higher duty cycles and durations, but no better A/F readings. Changed fuel pumps from OE to Walbro GS342 and no diff. (pressure does not drop on either pump) , I changed fuel the fuel filter, nothing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What does the Hondalogger's record of the O2 voltage say?
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a. What fuel pressures are you guys running (JIM?? Sonny? Any one with FI & 440's? Anyone with Tom Paynes Map? )
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I have a modified Tom Payn map, injector multiplier = 0.51, RC440's (had a problem with one of them -- had to get one injector replaced by RC for free).
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b. What injector DURATION & Duty cycle are you seeing at redline?
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I am seeing about 70% maximum duty at 8400 RPM. Fuel pressures are 36 psi at idle, 46 psi atmospheric, and max fuel pressure is about 54 psi. I am running the stock fuel pump.
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c. Could the injectors or OE fuel rail be insufficient.
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The rail should be fine and the injectors are more than adequate as long as they work.
Send me a few of your logs and your map if you've got it and I'll take a look for you. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
Sonny
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Sonny Van Hook ([email protected])
2000 JRSC'd Civic Si @ 6psi (Powered by Hondata)
1999 Tonykart/Honda 125cc Shifter (in the works)
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Sonny,
Could you explain how you diagnosed that one of your RC's was not performing right?
Thanks,
Bill
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Thanks Sonny, I will send you some recordings ASAP.
As far as the o2 reading on the datalogs it starts in the 90% range and as I move up into the gears drops into the 80%-70% and when I start to climb 3rd and into fourth it gets real scary dropping off into the 60%-50% (and I have seen lower) but I let off when I see this happening to avoid destruction http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/frown.gif
How did you know you had a bad injector?
Maybe I'll try swapping my Venom 380's in and adjust the multiplier and see if it helps.
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Turismo: When you say percent, I'm assuming you're talking about 02 voltage, right?
2kbill: It's a long story, actually. When I initially installed my system, I soldered and shrink tubed the new RC clips into the wiring harness. However, I did not wire-loom them (stupid http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/redface.gif). After a couple of weeks, a pin-sized hole developed in the shrink tubing on the wire that fires the #4 injector. This resulted in a code 16 (fuel injectors) because the #4 wire was arcing (shorting) to the intake manifold.
I didn't want to take any chances, so I pulled the injectors out and send them into RC. One of them came back bad, but I'm not sure if it was the #4 injector. Jason (the webmaster at ClubSi) had a similar problem with a set of brand new RC injectors. I had a rough, stinky idle and that was a clue. RC replaced the injector at no cost and everything seems to be working ok, but I want to replace them with something OEM Honda, Toyota, or Mitsubishi. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
Sonny
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Sonny Van Hook ([email protected])
2000 JRSC'd Civic Si @ 6psi (Powered by Hondata)
1999 Tonykart/Honda 125cc Shifter (in the works)
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Ok,
I am having problems with my Hondata unit in that I am leaning WAAAAY out on top in the higher gears, and nothing I seem to do is helping http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/frown.gif .
When I first hooked it up it seemed fine but shortly after I discovered low boost at high RPM due to a slipping belt (tightened it) and a drop of like 40F ambient temps and now the problem is very apparent.
I have a 4B from Tom Payne with a map for a 9:1 JRSC GSR @ 9psi that he compensated for the leaning out on a 10:1 motor. It doesn't do it.
In fact I've tried EVERYTHING imaginable to cure it, including trying many different ROm's with large increases in fuel in the needed areas and only see higher duty cycles and durations, but no better A/F readings. Changed fuel pumps from OE to Walbro GS342 and no diff. (pressure does not drop on either pump) , I changed fuel the fuel filter, nothing.
I about frickin give up, datalogging shows nothing consistent or obvious.
A couple questions:
a. What fuel pressures are you guys running (JIM?? Sonny? Any one with FI & 440's? Anyone with Tom Paynes Map? )
b. What injector DURATION & Duty cycle are you seeing at redline?
c. Could the injectors or OE fuel rail be insufficient.
Thank you.
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First of all..do *NOT* rely on your autometer POS a/f gauge...Put your car on a dyno and tune it there.
You can add fuel where necessary by looking at a dyno chart...that's the best way.
BTW, did you get a password to modify Tom Payn's map? The map was for a lower compression jrsc gsr, which is wayyyyy too lean for regular jsrc gsr. He refuse to give me the password to modify his map...
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It's powered by GASOLINE damnit!!!
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He actually sent me a modified version with some fuel enrichment already done and different multiplier to get me in the "right direction" , so this should be a safer, but not dyno-tuned map. He wouldn't release the original password to me either.
I am using the A/F on the J&S monitor, but also the actual reading the Hondata is getting from the ECU. And I've never seen it go lean like this either, especially only when I'm going up in the gears. As in the mixture looks pretty good in 2nd, starts to lean around 7000 in 3rd, and is too lean from the shift into 4th upward.
I don't get it.
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Sonny:
Yes I meant voltage on the o2 reading (doh) , and since last posting have tried the Venoms while changing the injector calculation and still get lean on top, even if I add 10% on top which.
I dont want to try higher unless
I hook the RRR back up to increase pressure because I'm close to maxing out the injectors, if that isn't the problem already.
It's about the only thing left.
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OK, So maybe not the ONLY thing left.
I put the Cartech on to see if it would help getting more fuel forced in through the same maps and have now noticed what may have been obvious all along...
Tried it at first with boost fuel pressure set to 70psi and still leaned, 80psi STILL leaned out and worse!
Well then I checked out my EGT temp and was DROPPING under boost.
So I set the max fuel pressure to 60 and saw it was still much lower then it used to be under any sort of load.
In fact in closed loop it seems to run around 13000F and under boost now it is only going to around 14000F and a little higher on some runs (before I've been letting off due to A/F reading) but before on a hard run it would go off the 16000F max of the Autometer EGT.
So can having EXTREME rich conditions cause A/F readings to go lean? (possibly like when you completely let off the throttle? ) or can an o2 sensor get this whacked where it seems to work fine but not at max load?
Damn I need to hit a dyno!
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If you're buying stuffs from Tom to get his map to use it as a base to modify, this DON"T DO IT because you can't do crap with it anyways...why? because you don't get the password to make any modification. Yes, I bought the stuffs from him, yes I bought it because I wanted to get his map to modify it...yes, it was wayyy to lean (14:1 a/f ratio), yes, he sent me another "modified" map but all he did was changing the multiplier, which was still wayyyy to lean and detonating everywhere. Anyways, you better off just ask around for a map from other Hondata user and modify it to fit your set up from there...just my to cents (from experience).
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It's powered by GASOLINE damnit!!!
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What duty cycle are you seeing, depending on your FP there is a chance they are getting close to their max flow.
When I dynoed a few weeks ago I had to add lots of fuel to my top end to get the A/F right.
I will also testify that the Tom Payne ROM on RW's car when way lean at the top end. What a joke not being able to get the PW. Doesnt give you much to work with if you cant see your ROM.
Another guys I know was going lean on the top end and thought it was his injectors, after putting the stock ones back in a testing a whole lot of stuff, it turned out he ran fine with a custom program.
I am runnning 42psi static and a 1:1 rate rise. Perfect idle, strong, smooth pull right through the rev range.
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If they can't dazzle you with brilliance, they baffle you with bullshit.
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Turismo,
I did E-mail you the password (314500), because after randomwalk101 dyno'd his, and found it to be lean, I was concerned about your map. I also found out that most of you are quite proficient at hacking passwords (randomwalk101) and have decided that they are a waste.
Also, if you guys ever have a problem or question, I will always be here to help.
I am sure that you guys can understand that I have worked hard on tuning some of these combinations. If I just give the maps away, any shop in the country can use them as their own.
To get to the point of this discussion...
The reason that your EGT's are low and you are reading A/F # that are "Lean" is that when engines get too rich, they start to misfire. When engines misfire, the O2 content goes up, since the engine did not burn it. The EGT's are low since it is pouring fuel through the engine making it look cold. You may even notice that the engine coughs or is jerky where it is "lean" by the O2 reading. Make a hard 4th gear run and shut the car off and coast to the side of the road. You will see when you pull a plug that it is very rich. You need to get to a dyno or go back to my original map and adjust the mixture using a good O2 meter.
Call me later today and we can talk more about how it is running.
Thanks,
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Tom Payn
Payn Technologies, Inc.
(248) 362-0283
[This message has been edited by Payntech (edited October 08, 2001).]
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Thanks Tom.
I will call you later.
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Well, I guess this doesn't really matter now, but with the datalogger you should be able to reverse engineer any map. Just drive around a bit at different loads and rpms, then map the rpm/load points to the injector times and ignition timing you see on the datalog.
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DirtyLude
Toronto Prelude Club
