Hello, and pedal question

Hello folks, this is my first time on this forum, although some of you may have seen my name around a few other places. I am a beginner, bought my first kit about three years ago at 55. So, I'm eccentric! I aspire to play in a swing/mainstream jazz band, and have already played a few times in public despite my rawness. I have just aquired a good teacher, and that leads to my question. I own three pedals, an Aging Axis, Iron Cobra and a Pearl 101. My teacher says these are all unsuitable for my style of playing and should look for something with more finesse. But which one? She who must be obeyed, my wonderful supportive partner said "that one" when looking at pictures in MD mag. Nothing less than the DW 9000. Not only that but a long board like Joe Morello. Now it is very difficult for me to test a range of pedals, because the shops around here are small and have little stock, so I am reliant on the advice of friends and forums. I must admit that I am not happy with either of my pedals, nor any other I have tried which includes the Pearl Eliminator, Gibralta, and a few others I can't recall. I have not tried a DW, but I did find a Pacific copy of a 5000 which seemed not too bad. I liked the feel of a low end Yamaha I tried a few weeks ago, but it had little adjustment so I found it unatractive. Is my lovely lady correct? Is the DW9000 longboard the way to go? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks

PS she also hinted that I will soon need another drumset - I like being under the thumb!

RoH

firstly, don't count out a pedal that has little to know adjustments, more things to adjust can become a pain in the but. that being said, the 9000 is indeed a very nice pedal, very smooth, but very expensive.

i second that. the 9000 is the best and smoothest pedal ive played and i love it.

to me, good equipment is stuff you dont have to worry about. i totally forget about my pedals and then i suddenly look down and go "oh yeah. i have DW pedals now!" they are great.

it wasnt like that with my pearls.... [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]

Hi , first i think you have to precise what you mean about longboard , first you refer to Morello , in his video he use real longboard , then you talk about DW9000 longboard , as i know there is no DW9000 with Real longboard , to clarify look thoses 2 pictures of axis pedal : http://www.axispercussion.com/images/Mvc-001f.jpg , the pedal you see on left side it's a longboard , the pedal on right side is not a longboad ( a longboard is made in 1 piece while other are made in 2 pieces , even if some footboad made in 2 pieces can be longer then others made in 2 pieces )

Then about DW9000 compare to the one you have i understand , i had a Iron Cobra and after a while i feel that i need something more smoth ( specialy for double stroke ) then i tested DW 9000 and i Loved it and buy it , now that i have both pedal at home i do a simple test , put my finger on the footboard at the "sweet spot" and do a stroke on bass drum and test the pressure i have on my finger when i try to hit a second time just after , on the Iron Cobra there is a pressure who don't let me hit a second time just after , i have to wait a while until this pressure disappear , with the DW9000 it feel like there is not pressure at all !!

So i guess for Jazz it's that kind of smoothest you need [img]wink.gif[/img]

I had to tap in...first post here. I am in my 50's and just started playing drums. I have always loved music (jazz/ big band) and after ALL these years of wondering, hoping, desiring, I finally bought myself a drum kit after I purchased one for my grandson?funny how those feelings I had as a kid never went away. I?m not sure if the kid will take to the instrument, but I went out and found a decent teacher, started taking weekly lessons, and so far, I love it. It has been very difficult however.
I am about to retire in a year or so and would love to play jazz music. I grew up listening to all the greats, at least greats to me.
What drew me to this site was the maturity of the members. It is hard to find a forum that doesn?t consume itself in the vernacular, discussing all the new drummers and then spending a lot of time debating who?s the fastest, etc. Mind you, I could care less about all of that?I did the same thing in my 20?s, but outside of Vic Firth?s website, I haven?t found a discussion forum that has been attractive outside of this site. I?m sure they are out there.
I fell onto this site by pure accident. I started taking lessons (here in Indiana) and saw a poster of Vinnie Colaiuta in the drum room. I then did a search on this unknown drummer ( I figured if he was in the teacher?s drum room, he must be influential for something right?), and that led me to the drummer of Sting. I?ve heard of Sting (don?t live in a cultural cave [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ) and that led me Ten Summoner's Tales which I had on my shelf. I pulled it, and there he was. WOW! I was impressed and did more research. I saw he played on this video, Buddy Rich Memorial and bought it. I was now fascinated by him and the other two drummers, Steve Gadd and Dave Weckl. Mr. Gadd?s drumming was more of what I could relate to; the other guys were in another dimension to me. I couldn?t really believe what Mr. Colaiuta was doing on the drums?it seemed so beyond what is possible, like watching a show on great human accomplishments more than drum playing. I did another search on all three and came across Steve?s webpage. That led me to the forum and now I am making my first post.

I really like what Steve has put together here and hope I can ask a few questions. I know you seasoned drummers must not like simplistic questions, and my drum teacher is good for that, but at times I would like to ask or possibly comment to get more than one opinion. As I?ve read almost two hundred posts over the past year here I have come to very much respect the vast knowledge and experience portrayed. There is quite a mix of personalities that makes it interesting and very little editing by the moderators which I also respect. I tired to get into another forum and was told that I would be moderated frequently. I couldn't understand this unless I was simply being an idiot over many posts. I also love the fact that we hear from drummers representing other continents as well. Very exciting!

OK?just wanted to say hi. Thanks!

Welcome to HODHB, you guy[s]...

Quote:

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I know you seasoned drummers must not like simplistic questions

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">On the contrary, the guys in here tend to "give back"...& are very helpful with insights...many being very good players, both semi-pro & pro, & also pro teachers/instructors.

The only time it becomes an issue is when trolling smart-alecs start w a seemingly innocent & naieve question, & then keep asking questions until it becomes painfully obvious that they are being wise-guys...seeing how long it takes us to "become wise" to the tomfoolery.
But we're generally pretty patient in here.

Beginners & novices' question are perfectly normal & fine. Hey, 'we've all been there.'

To quote a common cliche made by my [& MANY others] grade-school teacher always said, "the only 'stupid' question is an unasked one"... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 31, 2004 12:09 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

Well thanks there FuseU1. Your posts have always been entertaining, informative and positive. I am trying to get my thoughts together about this jazz playing thing and my teacher has had me working on my hands and very basic patterns from GL Stone's book (he said it was a good starting book) and we have been using this for hand development as well as taking patterns to the kit. Coming from an engineering background, I really like the ?math? part of drumming a lot. I have listened to music all my life and am in no way qualified to discuss drummers from a musical aspect, but as a fan of music, I really enjoy several, but in truth, I usually don?t think about one particular instrument (which is why I never entered these discussion boards previously) but I listen to the music. Then, if a drummer stands out to me I will seek his name (usually a male). One of my favorite of all has been Shelly Manne. His work with Stan Kenton, Benny Goodman and Shorty Rogers are some of my favorite listens. I don?t see his name come up a lot, but I have always loved his playing and feel. In the crop of young drummers (at least to me) I have been a devoted fan of Jeff "Tain" Watts. He seems to have combined a traditional feel and a contemporary expansion to the art of drumming. Again, it is his musical feel that impresses me so much. I really enjoy Jeff a lot. I have learned so much from Modern Drummers CD of past issues. What a resource!

Actually, you sound a lot smarter than you're letting on... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Sounds like you're on the ball & hip to what's going on...that's smarts...& "experience." [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

Shelly was a great drummer for his style, genre, & time, no denying that.

AFA you being into the math aspect [& in drumming]...guys like Vinnie, Virgil Donati, & Weckl are gonna be right up you alley. ;c)

[Edit:] oh, & BTW...there are parts of me that are "the perennial novice"...I'm still learning, too...always learning...in some aspects, as if i were beginning fresh again...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 31, 2004 12:08 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

In Process,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm sure
you will find what you are looking
for, here, at HOD. There are drum-
mers for all styles, it seems and
with real knowledge and experience.

Shelley Manne is great. He did so
much work! Have you heard Duffy
Jackson - one of my favorite big
band drummers? He's teaching in
Florida and still doing clubs
every now and then.

ROH,

Not forgetting the line of your thread,
I wanted to ask you if you were play-
ing heel-up or heel down.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 30, 2004 11:59 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Well, I second Randy's advice.
Don't count out your pedals un-
less you have thoroughly invest-
igated and understood them.

Tell me. Which Axis pedal do you
have? I need to know this before
I go on with any more advice.

I just bought a second Axis-A
Longboard, with Twin attachment.

The DW9K is a fine pedal but it
was not for me, which is why it
is important to keep in mind that
when it comes down to it, you will
have to make a very personal dec-
ision, in the end, as usual.

You should check all the related
threads, here, using the SEARCH
feature. I admit bringing up the
issue more than once.

Also, what six foot do you have
and what exactly are you not lik-
ing (or you teacher) about the
pedals you have?

[img]wink.gif[/img]

Let's chat about it.

I can talk about what you can
get out of adjustment features
from the Axis-A, Iron-Cobra, DW5K,
DW9K and Pearl Eliminators, for
starters.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ July 30, 2004 12:38 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 30, 2004 12:40 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Hey Peter,
I am playing heel-up and then heel down when I start my exercises. I start slow, and like it says in the Stone introduction, I take each exercise 20 times before going to the next. I try to set a goal by playing as many numbered exercises as I can within a time period set for practice(1-10), playing all 20x each. Then I try to find a tempo to play all together without stop afterwards.
I bought a cheap drum machine for this purpose, nothing fancy. I set it to about 75 or so and if it?s too fast, I slow it down until I can make it through all (1-10) without stop, focusing on accuracy of each note played. I try to go more heel-up as I get faster. I have a difficult time staying balanced with heel-up at slower tempos.
I am going to get some type of recording device, maybe a mini-disc player to hear what I actually sound like, or what someone else would hear. I also try to play familiar exercises with different dynamics--hitting hard of soft, accenting every fourth note (not sure if that's how you say it). I will put a CD on and try to just keep time, playing a basic beat. This is so fun for me. I pretend I am playing in the band. I really feel like a kid and even if I never actually play in a jazz combo, I am satisfied to do what I am doing at this stage of my development. I am having so much fun with this. My wife thinks I am having some type of change. I tell her the drums are better than a younger woman! She laughs.

Duffy?s work with Basie, Artie Shaw and Stan Getz come to mind. He reminded me of a John Candy type fellow?large and jolly. His personality seemed to transcend into his playing. I love all that stuff, though not real popular today, it always will remain meaningful to me. On almost all long drives, I have big band music blaring loud.

That's great, IP.

Tell me, now, a little bit more
about that 'problem' you have with
your pedal.

Which Axis was it that you have?

What exactly do you want from your
pedal?

What does the teacher say about the
pedal that is a detriment?

I'll do my best to help.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Thanks for all this input, folks! I have an old Axis pedal, probably fron the 80's, but I'm not sure. I have a problem with the angle of the footboard, it is too steep for me. The Pearl 101 is ok except for the very small footplate, I have large feet and prefer to play shoeless so it feels a bit odd. The Iron Cobra is a good, strong pedal with a nice big footplate and is the best of the three, for me anyway. I am into swing and mainstream jazz but I am prepared to have a go at anything except real heavy rock stuff. My teacher has pointed out my natural propensity towards swing, and he says he hears pretty strong blues and funk (that was a surprise!) in my playing. I will have a need to play pretty fast and intricate bass drum at varying dynamics to be able to play the sort of music I hear in my head so I will need a responsive pedal. I play mainly heel down but that is changing. The idea of a longboard comes from a statement I read somewhere that Joe Morello recomends longboards to his students, and he is about the fastest foot in the business. I know a longboard kit is available for the Axis, but I'm not prepared to risk the money on something I feel uncomfortable with anyway because of the footplate angle. I have never even seen a longboard, and the best stocked shop in my area has never ever sold one, so I can't find out for myself. Hence my post to you good people. Perhaps it's like everything else, personal taste.
My teachers recommendation for a different pedal came after him spending time on his hands and knees observing my foot action, and he is very experienced in this field. However, I am using the Pearl right now because it is harder to control than the IC, in an attempt to train my foot, but I do rotate the pedals so as not to get too used to any one of them. Who knows, I might even get to like one of them! A long time jazz player friend of mine has just bought a Pearl eliminater and claims it's the best he has ever used, and that's a lot of pedals over a lot of years. When I buy I new one, if I ever need to, it will be with the next thirty years in mind, so I will not choose lightly. Please keep the info coming!

A bit off topic, but here is an idea of what my teacher is doing to me.
He has put me on doubles, which is killing my hands but after only one week at about an hour a day has made a big difference. What I do is set the 'gnome for around 60 and warm up by doing quarters, thats two per hand, of course. Real slow but make me aware of the time. Then after a few minutes I play eighths, whizzing along at 60 with the click still at 60. Then I drop back to quarters, back to eighths, then sixteenths. I repeat this pattern for around 15 mins, then up the click a couple of notches and do it all again. Using this method, in less than a week I have improved my speed to 230 or so on a good day, that's with the clock set at 115 and going from quarters to eighths to sixteenths. A side benefit is that I am able to go double and half time without losing tempo.
The other exercises he has me doing is the first two pages of LH comp figures from the John Riley Art of Bop book on the bass drum. AAAAHR! But, after a few days I can do heel up, which I just couldn't do before. Also my foot has freed up enormously in this few days. I do up to an hour of this a day, until my foot won't go anymore. Doing a cross stick on the four on the snare is a real challenge with this. Of course swing ride and 2 & 4 on the hats goes with this. The third challenge, which I haven't done a lot of yet, is to do a simple funk ostinato for three bars and then do a series of doubles around the kits including the cymbals and with the bass foot joining in the doubles only on the cymbals. Quite challenging. The improvement in my playing after only three days of this was unbelievable, BUT it is hard work. I do the hands only stuff on a pad.

In Process, there is hope for us OP (old phart) beginners, it just takes a bit longer! And yes, this is a good forum. Have you tried Cymbalholics? http://www.chadanderson.com It's down at present but it's good.

Thanks all, RoH

The newer Axis-A Longboards have
what is called a VDL (Variable
Drive Lever). This is a kind of
Universal Cam design. They are
also low to the ground. These
are high-end, starting at $200,
unless you get them used.

The new DW9K has something like
it, though I do not think it as
radical as it needs to be. Still,
it is a pedal that you have to
check out. These are high-end.

The DW5K is a fine pedal but its
radical cam may not be what you
wnat. You have to try it before
you discard the idea. Many play-
ers swear by it. I like it. I
just like other pedals more. This
pedal can be found on the used
market for not too much.

The Eliminators have multiple
cams and now, with the purple
and yellow, the widest range of
the least expensive pedals. The
footboard may not be long enougn
for you, though Pearl is consid-
ering a longboard design. Expect
to pay around $130 for this and
get the purple and yellow cams.

The Iron Cobra is a sturdy ped-
al and with a decent cam but not
the most versatile.

The Gatzen Pedal is due out at
the end of this or next year. If
you can wait, you might want to
try this pedal. It looks great.
This pedal is a DW innovation.
It works on the principle of
bow-flex. Like I said - radical!

[img]eek.gif[/img]

Check out the related threads on
these, if you can. Move slow on
your decision. However, if $200
is too much to spend for a pedal,
you have little choice but to go
with the Eliminator, in my opin
ion. For the money, I think it
the best.

Hope the best,

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by RoH:
I have never even seen a longboard

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did you saw the pic of a longboard compare to non longboard in my post above ? [img]eek.gif[/img]

Peter C, Thanks very much for your input, very valuable. I intend to really take my time over this, I have so much to learn!

Donu, I do know what a longboard is, I've seen plenty of pictures.

I am being picky, I am a beginner, and you should see how I drive the local music shop up the wall! I have troubles accepting second best. Perhaps I'm a snob, maybe I want what's best for me. Who cares [img]wink.gif[/img]

It all comes down to personal preferance in the end, although quality is quality, what good is a nice feeling pedal today if it falls apart in a year? Erskoman wrote in one of his books that at the time he was usinge a cheap Yamaha pedal and it was wonderful, and I too was impressed with one I tried. Next week I get to try a Premier, not sure which one, but probably the latest and greatest. It's built like a tank, I know that much!

Thanks again everyone, good stuff!