Ok, so i haven't seen him in clinic yet... 14 hours and counting. I was just getting the topic ready so i won't have to think of a heading once my mind has been blown [img]tongue.gif[/img]
...Tune in later...
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Ok, so i haven't seen him in clinic yet... 14 hours and counting. I was just getting the topic ready so i won't have to think of a heading once my mind has been blown [img]tongue.gif[/img]
...Tune in later...
Hey Matricks! You are coming in from Seattle to see it? Right on! I'll be there. My girlfriend will have a pink shirt that says "I'm With The Drummer" and I will be wearing a vintage looking-shirt with a drum kit on it [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I'll also be the one who asks Lang what it was like to play with FALCO! Heheheh. This will rock.
[img]smile.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hahaha [img]cool.gif[/img]Quote:
Thomas Lang owns all y'all
But can he *schwing*?!
"Don't start nuthin' & there won't BE nuthin'"... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
A great technician w solid time at what he does, for sure.
Hi guys,
If you see Thomas on this tour tell him Mark Pusey says HI!!! I was with him last week, he had a cold so hopefully he'll be better by the time you guys get to see him...
Quite honestly, whether it's the 88 clinics he's done so far on this tour or just inhuman strength, he's far better than he was even on his own DVD. In the last six months his playing has rocketed... Honestly, I'm a Virg fan, but if it were a compition (and there obviously isn't!!!) for speed, accuracy, inventiveness etc. it'd be over pretty quickly. What's also great is that he makes it clear none of it matters, it's just for clinics and fun. He is a MUSICIAN!!!
He really is on top form...
Enjoy...
MP
..."leave it ALONE, Dij..." [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Do I have too!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] I really DIG Thomas too. He is a BAD dude for sure. We all have our takes on this stuff. In the end we do not drum to see who is more technically advanced that is for sure. It is quite interesting to hear what other GREAT drummer's think though. Mike Mangini has a recent opinion of who he think's more than anyone is on the technical cusp as of late(pushing physical and creative boundaries farther)so to speak. When one of these Giant's decide to speak and share an opinion it does peak interest. I hope to see Thomas in the near future. He is Awesome!
By the way Fuse how do you apply the little square picture thingy(you have the snare drum with the hands) as you have under your name? I know I should know but I do not.
Dig
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 06, 2004 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>
I've seen some of his vid over Derek's place. He's pretty sick, but like Fuse said, "Can he swing?" I'd really like to see him in some more interesting, varied music settings (like a five piece kit with brushes).
The clinic in Orange County I caught had a "heckler" (teacher trying to prove a point) that asked the EXACT same question regarding brushes.
So he broke some out and played some killer brush swing. Felt amazing; everyone was duly impressed for sure. I was definitely surprised.
I'm sure if you ask him to demonstrate something at NAMM or a clinic, he'll do it and you can hear and judge for yourself.
I've seen clips of Thomas playing with artists such as when he toured with Geri Halliwell (former Spice Girl) and several known European singers. Then Thomas is a different drummer, and can swing.
Ever since Thomas is developping pedals for Sonor (about four years), we have seen him perform clinics demonstrating his technical skills. Leaving the "musician" thing behind for a while, I believe that Thomas is taking advantage of the Sonor demo/Technical skills ride, while the timing is right for this.
But, I'm sure, in a couple of years, when this novelty wears off, we will see him in another light, playing music with musicians of diverse styles, and I am sure we will hear him "SWING".
There are just some drummers who can "do it all".
I am about to see one in 2 hours [img]smile.gif[/img]
P.S. Buddy Rich had a great quote that went something like this: "There's no such thing as a rock drummer, a jazz drummer, a funk drummer. If you are a real drummer, you can play it all!"
[img]smile.gif[/img]
Bought his DVD but have not watched it yet. Looked a t a bit of it and put it away. I leave Thurs for 6 weeks on the road and will have plenty of time to view then. Just wanted to wait so I had something new to watch on the road.
Have fun and watch them feet [img]graemlins/chat.gif[/img]
When I saw him he was 2 side snares and a snare on a pedal. I wonder if he'll try that out again.
The extras on the dvd Disc one are about the best parts of dvd!!
Chris... sorry buddy, i didn't read about how to spot you out until now, which is AFTER the clinic. I left early this morning and didn't look on here, it would have been cool to hang with you there. Oh, and small world: my buddy Mike Cota, here in Seattle, said he knows you. I called him on the phone before the clinic, to rub it in that i went and he had to work. He says he knows you and you mentioned me but didn't know my real name. 'It's a small world afterall...'
Anyways, bummer that i didn't read this sooner or i could have caught you, that would have been very cool. Oh, where can i get some of those "i'm with the drummer" shirts???
You may have seen, or heard me... I was the one who asked Thomas the "hair" question.
Anyways, my brain is fried, i will give a review tomorrow when i recover!
-Ryan
P.S. Thomas does own all y'all... and ME too!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
...not if Virgil's reading this! [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 07, 2004 02:01 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
matricks! hahaha, it is a small world! get this: I am searching ebay for some snare drums when I come across a 6x13" dw edge in ebony satin oil finish with brass hardware (my entire kit is ebony satin oil, and my 5x13" snare has brass hardware). Turns out that Mike is the guy selling this snare, and I met him when his band opened for Porcupine Tree in Seattle, almost 2 years ago! We have kept in touch on and off ever since that show, and the day before the clinic he called me to talk about the snare drum and catch up. I mentioned that I knew of a guy (you) that was driving in just for the clinic, and turns out he knows you too (you are a "lefty", right?) [img]smile.gif[/img]
Anyways, about the clinic! My gf and I laughed our asses off at that question, that was classic! "...and what kind of hair product are you using in your DVD, cause it looks like you got a nice firm hold". I liked his answer too, "ummm, I didn't use any. I think it was mostly sweat". Man, what a crazy clinic. We managed to get a couple guys to move over so we could have front row seats (we were sitting front left, directly infront of the video screen). There was some totally insane guy sitting on the steps beside us who would constantly mumble things to himself and even called Thomas a "wanker" once when he told the audience he could not demonstrate a new thing he was working on since he did not have the right setup for it. I wanted to have the guy kicked out, but he did prove to be very entertaining... esp when he told Thomas to try his multi-pedal techniques while "driving down the road". He did not mean it in a sadistic way though... i think.
So, about Thomas... man, it was an intense overload to the senses. He was still getting over a cold and was not happy with his own playing though the audience was more than impressed. Into the firt song (Jam, by Micheal Jackson!?!?), he bashed one of his filter chinas (thin!) so hard that it popped halfway inside out, and remained that way for the rest of the clinic (did you notice that, matricks?)...
Thomas pulled off some of the most physically amazing things I have ever seen. Forget typical ostinatos - he did an ostinato between his right foot, left foot AND left hand, while he soloed over it with his single right hand. Amazing.
He also performed a very intricate ostinato over an orchestrated 4-part hi-hat pattern which he soloed over with both hands. After the first set of performing, there was a very lengthy Q&A period, complete with demonstrations etc. One guy had the balls to ask "Who is faster, you or Virgil?", in which Thomas replied with a smirk "I am". Heheheh. And, of course, the hair question topped it off! I wanted to ask him why he was playing to an MJ track and also what it was like to play with Falco, but didn't get the chance.
I could go on for pages, let me just say that I have seen some of the best drummers in the world host clinics and major drum fests, and this was among the very best / most entertaining. Thank god he didn't throw his sweat soaked t-shirt into the audience like Virgil once did. Thomas had a bit more class and style to his teaching and playing than most. If you get the chance to see him, don't miss it for anything. I have a drummer friend here who had to miss the clinic due to "work", and is even considering driving to Edmonton to catch him. It would be well worth the 14 hour drive!
P.S. My only complaints about the clinic were that although Thomas spoke of speed and control, he had nothing to say about actual musicality. And in his solos, as soon as he kicked into a groove that you could move or tap your foot to, he launched into something else 4 bars after. Another thing, he contradicted himself many times in explaining why he uses traditional grip. Last, he did not have enough air or space in his solos, everything was a fast flurry or jumble of notes that flew by at 100mph... if only Thomas had a bit more musicality, he would be the ultimate drummer.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 07, 2004 05:08 PM: Message edited by: CLWarunki ]</font>
Great [& funny!] review, thx.
#2 question to NOT ask at a drum clinic [that would show your IQ, or lack thereof]:<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [Unless, of course, done in obvious jest]Quote:
"Who is faster, you or Virgil?"
[#1 ? not to ask: "Did you learn anything from Portnoy/Lars/Lombardo?"] ;cP
VERy few are worth a "14 hour drive" in my opin...well, MAYBE Vinnie...then again, no...[that's a LOT of miles/hrs for anyone who isnt a student out for summer, & even then, man!] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
14 hours of driving one way or otherwise almost qualifies as a fanatical obsessive-compulsive disorder [or "stalking!," as it were]!!
"ROAD TRIP!" ;cP
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 09, 2004 09:36 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
Good review!
Hey Chris, tell your friend to see how much plane tickets are... i bet they are cheap and worth it for him instead of the long way (14 hour drive, wow). I used to fly to Winnipeg ALL THE TIME when i dated a girl there. From Van to Winnipeg and back was VERY cheap. Edmonton would be dirt cheap from Vancouver, i would think.
As far as me travelling up there for Lang. Yeah, that was well worth my drive up there!!! Me and a guitar playin' buddy of mine drove up there, got lost in Surrey, had to ask a 'Newfie' or 'Newfy' (however you spell it... a chick from Newfoundland) for directions... i couldn't understand her and got totally lost trying to follow the directions she gave us. I've spent alot of time in Canada and still can't understand those people's accents who are from out east. Ok, enough ranting [img]wink.gif[/img]
Ok, first, Thomas was, of course, killin'. Second, what a nice guy! Not wound up tight, funny, cracking jokes, etc... The one thing that i really took away from there was the efficiency of practice he talked about. He mentioned that since he got asked all the time how much he practiced, that he would find out for sure so he could put a number to it. Therefore, he went back and totalled up ALL his practice logs (something his first teacher made him do at age 5 and has done ever since!). He said that if you divided the total of hours by how long he's been drumming in days, that it would be LESS THAN ONE HOUR A DAY. Yeah... he said that his secret is being focused and totally efficient. Not 'playing around when you practice, and not practicing while you play'. Then he demonstrated 'nooding' while you practice... kinda hit me close to home when i think of how i have been guilty of it! He answered all the questions really well... the Virgil one was funny: 'Who's better: you or Virgil'... Thomas: 'I AM!' with a smirk (of course). Chris, you may have had a wacko there (i was in the middle so i didn't see it) but NOTHING like the one at the Bozzio clinic i went to, haha. At the Bozzio, this one guy raises his hand and starts talking for about 3 minutes on how he (not bozzio, he is talking about himself) is the best drummer in the world because his teacher told him. Oh, and i almost forgot! Ah... the Marco clinic! Chris, when you get a chance, ask Mike Cota about this one! The clinic was held at a bar and during Marco's solo, patrons were actually playing pool... umm, unusual to say the least. Then this drunk guy with a cane and a fake leg (who was there for the clinic) starts yelling and getting all wacky. During Marco's speaking part he had to stop because some guy at the clinic and the drunk guy were about to get into it. The sober guy told him if he didn't get out that he would shove the guy's cane down his throat... he left [img]wink.gif[/img] So yeah, clinics... crazy places, who would've thought?
Ok back to Thomas. Basically, every question he was asked, was covered in his DVD's... that is a credit to his DVD and not a knock to the clinic. This DVD was so comprehensive that, basically, all the questions from the audience are right there on it.
I just watched part of his DVD today, and yes, his playing HAS gotten better... i really did notice. If you watch the 2003 Meinl solo and see him now, you can see improved tightness AND better continuity. I really didn't think it could get tighter, but i was wrong... it DOES! His playing was VERY dense, not alot of time to catch your breath. I am not complaining, if it was someone who could KINDA do it then it would get old but he has enough tricks in the bag that he can pull it off and need no excuses, ram the notes right down your throat and make you like it [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I'll list the quesions, ones i can remember, if anyone wants to know his answers, i can post them (it would take too much time to write the answers on here along with the questions!)
How much do you practice?
What shoes are you wearing?
How did you develope your feet (doubles)?
Can you explain your tuning, esp. bass drum?
What are you working on (technically) now?
Can you explain why you use traditional grip?
Hi-hat foot pedal orchestration?
What advice would you give to someone about developing a practical/balanced practice routine?
In your DVD, what product did you use in your hair to get such a firm hold? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Who's faster, you or Virgil?
Can you explain your cross-sticking?
Who are your influences then and now?
What/who are you checking out now?
What inspires you in drumming and in life?
How has your new family changed your life as a drummer (i.e. practice/professionally)?
What is your method of developing endurance?
That is all i remember...
So, yeah, overall, one of the best clinics i have been to, and a great turnout. I would say over 300+, easy. Don't miss him if you get the chance [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
P.S. Chris, next time you are down in Sea-town, hit up Mike and I and we can hang to make up for the Lang clinic!
P.P.S. With the exception of maybe a Virgil... Thomas Lang DOES own all y'all! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
And me too [img]wink.gif[/img]
P.P.P.S. Yes, I AM the lefty [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Ah yes, and thank you for diggin' the hair joke, i DO aim to please!
Sweat is not a good "hair firmer" [altho it's a great retort from Thomas]...try Aqua Net, or Pantene pump-spray...at least that's what i hear from a girl who's half-sister's aunt's cousin's dog frequents the RRockitt forums... [img]cool.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 08, 2004 02:30 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
Thanks for the review guys...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree 100%... It left me dry when I saw him in Toronto a while back. His backbeat was killin though. He was not communicating musically in his solos and that "to me" is real significant. Just like what happens after a Roller Coaster ride... Adrenaline rush... [img]eek.gif[/img] It only lasts for a short while then.... what...Quote:
Last, he did not have enough air or space in his solos, everything was a fast flurry or jumble of notes that flew by at 100mph... if only Thomas had a bit more musicality, he would be the ultimate drummer.
I am not doubting Thomas can be musical if he wants to, and playing pop rock won't convince me of that either. But he sure does not choose to display that aspect in his clinic and I think he should, for the sake of the young lesser-learned drummers.
Uncle Dazz [img]wink.gif[/img] has said it so many times on this forum... Making music with the drums... That's what will help pay the bills in the long run... For Music sake!!! Addressing that issue would definitely bring more overall credibility to those pyrotechnical drummers. But unfortunately, they seldom do...
Big difference when I saw Vinnie in clinic in 1998... Well he was performing alongside Waldman on piano and Carpenter on bass... That's another story... Did he bring his chops?? BIG TIME!! Did he make music while using them?? YOU BETCHA!!!
Forgot to mention that Santana's percussionists, Raul Rekow and Karl Perazzo, performed prior to Lang taking the stage that evening I attended in Toronto. They ended the clinic jamming together, so that gave Thomas the opportunity to display his Latin vocabulary. So again I hear people say that Thomas can be musical in various contexts, that's fine as I am open minded, but he sure does not have Latin down the way he should as a musician of that caliber. And that's okay too, never too late to get workin in a given style... Spending a Week End taking lessons with Alex Acuna would be beneficial to him and all of us for that matter... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Beat Hit, I was wondering about his latin/jazz abilities and I was going to ask him but didn't want to sound like a smart-ass. He definatly seems like he is all about the (Prog)Rock and Fusion. What the hell is with that Michael Jackson backing track!? I wonder if Thomas has his permission to use that!?
matricks, we will for sure meet up, trade 4's, drink beers, play grunge like the good 'ol days, whatever it is you guys do in Seattle when I come down again! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
You need don't a flannel shirt to enter the city limits anymore, BUT they DO make you pledge allegiance Dave Grohl and Nirvana. I am a resident of Seattle so i don't have to take the oath... All Canadians do, however.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sound like a smart-ass... I think NOT! You just wanna hear how he interprets jazz and/or latin, nothing wrong in asking that. It all depends as to why you're asking... To put him on the spot or to just simply hear how he makes it sound in his own individuality. One is to offend the other is to learn from.Quote:
I was wondering about his latin/jazz abilities and I was going to ask him but didn't want to sound like a smart-ass.
I see nothing wrong asking Virgil the same question in a clinic. That's what Clinics are all about. Again, it all depends where you're coming from and how you're asking it.
Me I'd ask: "I'd be curious to hear you play with only the basics. IE: one bass-drum pedal, one hi-hat and snare, no toms nor other cymbals. Just to hear/see what you'll come up with."
I am somehow confident that I wouldn't be disappointed. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Towards the end of his 'older' clinics, like the MDF 97 vid, he [VD] used to have just a kick & sn [& maybe HH?] out front & to the side, back facing the audience, so he could show what he can do...mostly dbl kick ostinato stuff, but burnin' nevertheless...I'd like to see him w just 2/3 cym, 2 toms [or none], HH, single kick, & sn also...I'm sure he wouldnt dissappoint w just that, AW. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 10, 2004 02:00 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
Funny you guys mention the small kit thing, cause I went to a huge drum fest a few years back with Chambers, Bozzio, Portnoy, Simon Phillips and Tom Brechlein (spelling?)... at the end they all same out for a grand finally and played simultaniously... then things got wacky as they started playing "musical chairs" and switching kits one by one! EVERYONE was in anticipation of Bozzio to get down to Tom's little Yamaha kit (very basic setup), and when he finally did, you could hear the audience chuckle and even bozzio himself started laughing, cause he was so bewildered, believe it or not! It was hilarious to see Chambers on Portnoy's kit... same thing! It was quite a fiasco, I wish I had pictures of that one!
[img]tongue.gif[/img]
Going to Lang's clinic here in Toronto on Wednesday...should be stellar...after watching his DVD, I'm really looking forward to seeing him live.
Just because someone had great technique and some "common sense" exercises doesn't mean they can play. And just because someone can throw in the kitchen sink while playing jazz ride pattern or playing 'killer' brushes doesn't mean they swing.
Thomas Lang may be the most unmusical drummer out of the drummers who get press that I've ever seen. The exercises in his video are boring and simulate running on a treadmill. You can teach a monkey to do that. Alan Dawson had better exercises using the same patterns but applying them to music compisitions and jazz standards.
If you want to learn how to play with bad taste and no feel what so ever check out the first song on the DVD. You'd never hear a pro session drummer like Vinnie, or Russ Miller play like that. YUCK....
Also, SWING?? Who ever said Lang can SWING meant if you tied a wrope around him and hung him from a tree. First of all what IS swinging? Do you even know? The language of swing is a deep tradition and hardly anyone that is mentioned on this board has it. Have respect for the guys that make that command that music today like Tain, Victor Lewis, Lewis Nash, Smitty Smith, Bill Stewart, and more. If you think these guys who make a living from blowing bullshit chops in front of ejaculating drum hobby-ists at clinics are creative, check out some of the above names, MAKING MUSIC, over a FORM! knowing the harmonic changes and relating to them in solo. Do you even know what that is?
Vinnie does...that's why he creams over Tain Watts. Not because of the chops.....
Okay I'm calm now. HAHA.... But really folks, sometimes I come in here, and I feel like music is just going over everyone's head. An innovative idea on the drums like " playing an open hi hat solo with two hats one being a remote hat"( from Lang's DVD) means nothing unless you apply it to song and form. And for those DRUMMERS who aren't musicians, by open I mean FORM wise. The solos played on that DVD are pointless and have no meaning. There's no canvas. Just free open hand anf foot patterns. That's not music.
I hope we start talking about more music and less drum athletics. And my opinion on Lang's groove is it feels as stiff as a board. Playing to click directly on it doesn't make a pocket. Playing around it and meeting on the downbeat does. Like..hmmm..Vinnie, Jeff Porcaro, Shawn Pelton, Jim Keltner. Ummm You know guys...MUSICIANS!
Brilliant Rob. Well put my friend.
I saw that DVD and picked up one or two good chop exercises.
Over all I'm with you. I'd rather listen to Jimmy Cobb swing on Kind Blue than Virgil and Thomas both wanking together on a clinic stage. Not to say that Virgil and Thomas are not great drummers, just not great musicians(in my opinion). Drummers that do tour after tour, play on many CDs, and have something individual to say within the music are musicians. That's why Vinnie Colaiuta is brilliant. He does it all really well and always plays music, even when he overplays. Everytime I hear a Vinnie clone they've copped the Chaffee groupings and the hand technique, but not the feel or the musicality. That's why they don't have gigs.
I'd rather hear Shawn Pelton groove his butt off on the opening theme to SNL, or Steve Jordan play 2 and 4 with Keith Richards.
Don't get down on the room. There are pros in here as well.
You just don't see us blabbing everyday because we're busy playing instead of talking.
thanks SDK I'm glad you have ears. Digi, you're right. But I thought I was in a room where we can talk music on a high level to make a comparison. Picasso, Van Gogh, even Jackson Pollack.
Elvin, Dejohnette, Erskine. Ya know?
These clinic drummers are like paint by numbers in comparison. Maybe I shouldn't compare. We're not talking with non musicians. But the reality is that non musicians love great music and not the jibberish drumming. I'm done with this, I had to get it out. have fun practicing chops, while the rest of us get gigs.
read lang's modern drummer interview....these clinics he is doing are only "icing". his day job is being a top session guy....he showed me some of the records he had just recorded.....quite a cross-section.
hes doing these clinics to promote the hudson dvd and his signature products. like dave weckl is contacted to do a certain amount of clinics per year.
dont forget these guys get paid for these clinics....some are good money....it is there job.
Wow,
I can only say that I'm sorry you haven't yet had the oppertunity to see Thomas play music yet.
I have been so lucky. Thomas has taken me along to some of his gigs, the last of which was a party for every pop artist on the label 19 management (the people who do American Idol et al..) Now, love it or hate it, I'm sure we all by now realise the calibre of muscian it takes to hold those gigs together.
I sat behind Thomas' stool on the last gig with a pair of phones on, (listening to his mix of band and click) and saw the most breathtaking musican in him. No chops, no frills, just groove and the song in his mind. I'll always remember a last-minute re-arrangement of a tune Thomas did when the band realised they had to play for an artist to exit the stage. The small passage he came up with had form, character, paid homage to the original song, and grooooooved!!!
Within seconds, the band were again confident, and the artist knew know better. Job well done, and a total total pro. I only wish that all people could see this side of him. I know that all this 'industry' attention is simply for fun, honestly. The fact that he stretches the art is simply extra curicular...
You'd be a fool to discount Thomas' musical ability. Please re-watch the DVD and notice at the beginning of it how he emphasasises the fact that the "Sterile" excercises on his DVD are simply to make things easier and overall the aim is to make music... Maybe you missed that part???
MP
There happen to be ALOT of great musicians who have no interest in jazz, fusion or funk etc. My point is is that one style of music or one realm of performing is not SUPERIOR! Of course it is superior to those who like THAT way better. But that is SUBJECTIVE! And I agree with the others the point of instructional dvd's is to give you the TOOLS to make whatever music YOU LIKE! And there happen to be MANY guy's making more money than we will ever know doing ONE gig in one style of music.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 11, 2004 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>
We all could take a lesson in replying to posts from Peter C...
"There happen to be ALOT of great musicians who have no interest in jazz, fusion or funk etc."
They might be good at what they do, but they're certainly not "great." For instance, Tommy Lee is a good rock drummer, but he's not a great drummer just because he can play rock well. In order to be "great," I think you also have to be well-rounded, like any professional should be.
So you cannot be a Great cook if you just cook French or Chinese? Or you cannot be a great engineer if you just focus on Civil engineering?
There is a difference between being a great well rounded drummer OR guitar player and being a great rock guitarist(Eddie V. or a Steve Vai) or a great Jazz drummer(Elvin Jones,Max Roach etc.)
just to name a few.
Dig
OK, look. This has long passed the point of becoming absurd.
"DUDES!"
A football team consists of many "stylistically specific" positions...no one on the team plays every position at once...otherwise, you'd only need one guy on the team. And similarly, in a band ensemble.
Some cats in music do INDEED cover many diff styles very well AW...some are specialists in 1 particular. Within that particular style, it doesnt make them any less convincing. Altho it IS a little odd to me that some of these guys may not swing like the best, it's relatively pointless to belittle them that fact.
The orig topic was simply commenting on Lang's technical prowess within his "genre" & one of his clinics, that's ALL. In a slightly humorous way. Even the topic title was [half] in jest.
What's up w all these folks who are insistent on pointing out how someone like Virg [or Lang] cannot swing? I personally have never heard him trying to prove himself to the naysayers on a strictly swing gig...prog/"art"-rock & fusion, yes...he is not trying to make a name for himself on jazziz.com's top 10 list of all-time swing players! So get over it already! SYI/OTV & PX ARE NOT SWING...It's NOT rocket science here, guys!
But not one swing nazi can ever say he cannot kick a** at what he does...THAT would be ludicrous. "Fan-boy?!" No. Stating the obvious? Absolutely. No delusions there. And it's not because it's Virgil either. If it were Joe Blow from Kokomo who happens to be an accomplished player at ANY or all style, I'd still be saying the SAME thing.
This is all devicive, divisional, opinionated bullsh** to me. Like Catholicism, Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterianism...it's all supposed to be the christian faith for crying out loud. Isnt there only ONE & the SAME bible for these folks?! Once people get their own self-serving BS ideologies out of the way, it reads THE SAME FOR ALL OF THEM. And the King Jms hasnt really changed in OVER 2000 YEARS [except by those who want to change it w their own ideologies - that includes many pulpits across the world!!]. Yet some jackamo will read something different than the next guy, & IT'S THE SAME WRITTEN PAGE! It's like the Hard L & R's national conventions...[I'm NOT talking about the answer to the ?, "what is swing" here, either!]
And I LOVE swing...true, authentic, tradition swing, to those who would question... [img]wink.gif[/img] It is INDEED a rich heritage. [OK, i'll mention names - Elvin, Philly Jo, Cobb, Art, Max, Haynes [there are many others], & on to Tain, Deej, Hamilton, Stewart, etc etc...what about Al Foster? He can swing, but he gets accused/"labeled" as being contemporary.
I also dig the he** outve the way Tony, Vinnie & Weckl play it [contemporarily], too!
"The language of swing is a deep tradition" - TRUE.
"...and hardly anyone that is mentioned on this board has it. Have respect for the guys that make that command that music today like Tain, Victor Lewis, Lewis Nash, Smitty Smith, Bill Stewart, and more. If you think these guys who make a living from blowing bullshit chops in front of ejaculating drum hobby-ists at clinics are creative, check out some of the above names, MAKING MUSIC, over a FORM! knowing the harmonic changes and relating to them in solo. Do you even know what that is?"
Altho you are right in what you said in & of itself, esp at the end there, that's still a pretty harsh tone, as was most of your post. Since youre taking it upon yourself to bring an unrequired attitude in here, & make this into more than this topic was directly intended to be, I'll go ahead & bring it back.
First of all, youre amiss here: for one, those guys you mentioned HAVE been spoken of & talked up/highly respected in here. ESP TAIN, STEWART...& Smitty & Nash. & ERSKO for another. And that VINNIE guy...NOoooo, we've NEVER talked up his musicality...& he "cant swing," At least by the "purist, traditionalist, or old-school" standards. Please.
Stylistic nazi-snobbery is unattractive. In ANY style. Total waste of time. The Negativity Factor. Much like responding to this topic. I know i do my share of typing [b4 it gets to that.] So TH what. It's 2004 for God's sake - that way of thinking is neanderathal at best. It went out w shag carpeting! And nobody's dissin' swing in here! Get your head out of the sand! Think outside "the box!" Be positive in your postings! Even when you are pointing out a seeming "deficiency." Delivery, attitude, & tone is 99% of the sales pitch!
Likewise, when some knucklehead will say something swings when it does not, there's always gonna be some knucklehead who has to point out what doesnt swing...ESP when it's not written or played to be swing.
Again - if you are a swing-snob & you are listening to Virg or Lang for it, you are indeed a knucklehead. & Virg & Lang could CARE LESS about your opin anyway, as they raise the f'n bar for all of us WITHIN THEIR STYLISTIC EXPERTISE. I shouldnt care enough to have waste the time to make this point either. Then why do it you ask? Because likewise, as some folk arent knowledgeable or experienced enough yet to understand the nature of swing, some people may be just a little too self-righteous.
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This isnt a Philly Jo post...it's a Thomas Lang post!
Weckl may not swing a la purist trad, but you certainly cant say that the guy cannot bring it if he wanted to lay down a musical solo...over the kicks/hits or otherwise. I've heard him start solos for a while w VERY sparse/spacey, musically well-placed notes...better than a lot of folks. And he can do it all day long if he wants, w/OUT all the "BS, masterbatory chops." And then he can bring the chops in to boot, too. He is capable of incredible phrasing, & often brings it.
And just because he puts out a lot of OTT suff that highlights the pinnacle of his ability, dont be so self-righteous as to say a guy like Virg CANT play a 'melodic or musically sparse or succint' solo over the hits [AOT 'blowing bullshit chops in front of ejaculating drum hobby-ists at clinics'], because he CAN! Why 'handcuff' the guy like that? Totally ridiculous. It simply IS what IT IS - but some peeps just cant seem to grasp the simplicity of that statement! And, guys like Vinnie, Weckl, & Virg can ALWAYS BACK DOWN the burners AOT someone who cant bring it.
There has to & is bound to be guys out there like VD & TL. Just as there was Elvin, Philly, Roy, Jimmy, Art, back to Max, & as ther is Tain, Deej, Stewart, & Hamilton...& say, Stv Jordan, who is a fine part & pocket player, & who can bring some if it's called for. Vega & Jeff P too.
Sometimes a specific type or piece of music may have a particular instrument at the forefront - or all of them. It's not worse than say Pelton or Jordan laying down a solid groovre...or Ersko or Abe Jr laying down a saucy one...just different. Another bag. Just because Weckl is doing his thing & Virg is doing his & both tend to bring it a lot ON THEIR OWN SOLO PROJECTS & THOSE THAT THEY ARE ASKED TO DO SO ON doesnt mean someone has to get all uptight & tightly wound about it, or threatened by it. No big deal! Let em be who they are, for Pete's sake! Theyve done plenty of "just pocket" & accompaniment music too. Weckl NOT musical when he brings his chops, or when he contemporarily swings?! I think not!! That cat is NOTHING BUT MUSICAL. I've never heard him play a f'n UNMUSICAL NOTE IN MY LIFE. EVEN WHEN HE'S BEING "BUSY" or BLOWIN' HIS CHOPS. And dont say it's "unmusical" because Weckl [or Virg] is "blowin' CHOPS [IN TIME]!!" That's just stupid talk. That may sound rude, but that's what it is. He can do BOTH [lay it solid & simple or rip your f'n head off]. He's an EXTREMELY musical player! Ersko & Anth Jackson wouldnt have raved about the guy to Chick if he wasnt!! Chick wouldve PASSED him OVER if he wasnt!! And he knows the galldarn melodic form too. "Yeah, he [whomever] is technically proficient, but he can't swing!" That's missing the WHOLE f'n point here, & REALLY annoying & closed-minded. Dont put music & players in a friggin box like private school uniforms [all the same]. Save that crap for socialism! What's all this lip service we hear about "tolerance?!"
Since when are we supposed to never "give the drummer some?" Or if we do, only swing players, over the form? Is it a crime for the drums to be at the forefront some of the time? Granted i agree that a solo within the form of a tune is the best way to approach it. But these guys can do it. Maybe not to your specifications, but there are plenty of people who dont mind. It's 2004. Miles & Coltrane were THERE. The big bands were THERE. THEY did IT. IT'S BEEN DONE. There's always going to be peeps who want to stay in a certain era or mindset - that's OK by me. And there may even still be an audience for it ;c). J/K But even Miles would ask you to your face why would you do it the SAME WAY IT'S ALEWAYS BEEN DONE [not talkig about 'not stayg w/in the form' here, just new & diff approaches & styles]. That's the beauty of music. ESP improvisatory, of which 'these guys we always mention' can also DO WELL.
If I had to listen to [pick a decade] swing every time I turned on the radio or player every day for an entire yr straight I'd pull my f'n hair out. Likewise, if i just listened to NOTHING buit pop or rock, I'd DO THE SAME. Classical, symph orch, blues, r&b, funk, soul, ska, reggae, calypso, latin, brazilian, african, even mid eastern...There's TOO MUCH going on OUT THERE for that.
Guys like VD, TL, MM's, are just exploring new & diff ways of approaching the instrument, within a specific stylistic genre. That's ALL. It in a nutshell. Being chopsy doesnt make it bad. So what that they sit down & think of endless ways to play the beats within a measure, or how many diff ways to play 'polyrythmically.' It's magnificent! - just as Elvin's swing is utterly magnificent! Ersko, Gadd, Vega, & Jeff's groove is utterly magnificent! Weckl soloing over the hits / form is magnificent! Vinnie busting his is magnificent! Altho I agree that in a piece of music it's not the point at all & shouldnt be, except in situations where called for. And those guys would agree w you ALSO. If everything & every stinkin' player on the planet played the SAME thing the SAME way it would be absurd. If every style of music NEVER called for the horn, gtr, drums, whatever to take a solo, then all you'd have is pop music as king...oh, wait a minute, it already IS. Sorry. ;c)
We need guys like Dazz. His approach to music is a mature one. But it doesnt somehow diminish in the wake of these other 2 types of guys. Dazz will always work. I dont think he worries that he wont work because he's not musically minded. There's other things in life to make one 'worry' about stuff like that.
Your preferred art form is not going to die because some kid of this moment in time is excited to get into the drums by Thomas f'n Lang. Or Virgil. These guys ARENT JAZZ SWING anyway. Theyre prog, "art," "epic" rock fusion. If your argument is w their STYLE, then that's another boring ballgame. Jazz didnt die because Elvis shook his a** on TV.
Jeez, even I wrote another bible here! Rant over.
It's NOT supposed to be a competition, people! Not even between STYLES.
Just diff flavors of ice cream; diff colors of the spectrum. You like what you like - & dont like what you dont...dont impose it on someone else. NOW do you get it? [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]
Bring it. ;cP
[& remember - i TOO am but an insignificant, disembodied 'voice' at the other end of the "ether-waves!"] ;c) :cp
I guess I may have blown any chances for the "Peter C Honorable HOD-HB Award" here.../;c/
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 12, 2004 03:03 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
When are we going to realize that what is musical to one is not to another. I listen to "Tain Watts" or Tony Williams or Allan Holdsworth and my wife who is not musically illiterate, she is quite knowledgable think's that what she is hearing is pointless meandering dribble, whether it is the overall tune or the drumming specifically, to her it is void of any soul. Now I tend to have the same response towards her music of choice. And I have to catch myself and realize we are wound differently and that is fine. For some clinic's are very musical and Bozzio or Minneman wanking! [img]wink.gif[/img] by themselves as some would say is the ticket. For some it is not.
I can spend all day trying to explain to people why certain jazz or fusion or R&B guy's are MUSICAL to me but it does not connect with them. Put on some folk-country-rock and they are in musical heaven and they can sure TELL YOU WHY! The tunes, the vocals, the drumming the guitar playing it all works for them. That is possibly why we have this GREAT urge to label music in general, because we all obviously find noticeable differences with music and those differences are what makes some music and the playing in general ear candy for them and it is utter garbage for others. And that happens whether it is flying solo on a stage by yourself, or performing with artists or making a vid. I am not saying that there is not objective point's to be made there is but much of it is subjective. I have said before we can scrutinize technique and do it fairly objectively to a great degree but when it comes to people making music than subjectivity comes into play in a very LARGE way.
Dig