Perfection

On another drum forum the topic of perfection and music was raised. A lot of drummer saw themselves as being 'perfectionists' (and they really didn't like it when I said this may be a bad thing...)

I personally have developed a technique where I don't try to play perfectly, but try NOT to play, or play at 50% and I often hand over the aesthetic responsiblity to someone else (like the producer or songwriter) and just play.

At a clinic of mine last week the same issue of perfection came up. Could this platonic concept really be the enemy of music?

I know there is some real knowledge on this forum so I would love to gather some of your views.

i am a total perfectionist.

i have been recording myself a lot over the last 2 years and continue to do so to all types of music as often as i can. this is a great learning tool.

If there is any mistake in the tune whether it be a small time fluctuation, missing a small stab, dropping a stick.....i do the tune all over again and get pissed. i like it to be perfect. "do it properly or not at all".

obviously there is a balance, like anything, being too perfect can leave it sterile. but i admire guys like lang, weckl, etc where it is just perfect. but of course watching buddy, or vinnie etc take risks is also great.

i guess it depends what you define as being perfect. i guess there is no such thing. but as far as mistakes go....there shouldnt be any.

Great topic!

I considered myself to be a perfectionist for a long time. Even when I was a very young kid, my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. observed what a perfectionist I was (and what a crabby, miserable kid I became when I fell short of perfection.)

In the last few years, I have absorbed a bit of perspective on "perfection." I really learned it in the professional and academic (and golfing) areas of my life, but I found it also applies to music.

Basically, what I realized was that "perfection" and "excellence" are not the same thing. Furthermore, excellence is not a checkpoint on the path to perfection. As you go from "terrible" to "bad" to "fair" to "good," you eventually hit a fork in the road: one path leads to "perfection" (or at least the perception of it) and the other leads to "excellence."

Being obsessed with perfection can be a real obstruction to progress.

One way to look at it is to consider the "best of the best" in a given area, and see if they are perfect. Barry Bonds doesn't hit a home run every time up, but he's arguably the best hitter in baseball today. Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament, but he was the undisputed best golfer in the world for seveal years. Microsoft Windows is by no means a "perfect" piece of software, but I'd say Bill Gates is pretty successful (in the corporate sense, anyway).

One of the best drumming tips I ever read was a story about Rod Morgenstein going to Freddie Gruber for a lesson. Freddie told him that, more so than anything else, he needed to quit worrying about everything being perfect and have some fun when he plays.

I struggled (and still struggle) with the same thing Louie described. Trying to record myself, and going through endless takes of the same tune because I could never get it quite right. Then, after about a day's worth of takes, I got sick of playing the same tune over and over, and I lost all expression and feel in my playing.

I think Louie also made a good point that being too perfect can lead to being totally sterile. A drum machine has perfect timing and consistency, but does it groove?

What I also realized was that if you spend too much time being focused on perfection, you miss out on a lot of other stuff. I'm not sure that Vinnie or Steve Gadd was 100% pleased with the way they played on every tune they ever recorded, but would they trade perfection for the chance to play on so many records with so many artists?

Sorry to get all philosophical, but letting go of 100% dedication to 100% perfection has removed an obstruction that has allowed me to improve my abilities in several things I want to do well.

I think a better term than "perfectionist" might be "satisfactionist". There's no single definition of perfect in art, how could you quantify that? Striving for satisfaction with your playing might be less frustrating, and possibly, more rewarding.

A bass player friend of mine told me once:
"If you're not making mistakes, you're not pushing yourself hard enough."

I would much rather listen to a drummer who pushes the limits and falls on his arse occasionally than one who plays the part "properly" and "perfectly".

As soon as an artist realizes that there is NO SUCH THING as perfect, then creating and performing becomes much more natural and expressive. If you strive for "perfection" then you will be like a dog chaising it's tail.

Thom Yorke (Radiohead) has a had a great lyric that stated: "The best you can is good enough". That's how I feel about perfectionism, in a phrase!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 18, 2004 07:48 PM: Message edited by: CLWarunki ]</font>

then i think my goal is not perfection but to be the best I can be. its the silly mistakes that piss me off, not mistakes because im going for something hard.

There is really not much that i can add to this subject... it changes so much from person to person.
I have a unique view on it. I have obsessive-compulsive disorder... and no, i don't jump over cracks in the street or any of that! [img]tongue.gif[/img] I used to have a terrible time with anything i did (still kinda do). In basketball, for example: going 8-10 shooting from the field wasn't good enough because what about those 2 misses?! I used to practice my jumper for HOURS, and i mean hours... 6, 7, 8 hours a day. I lost credit for my whole Sophmore year of high school because i would skip it to practice. Now, i developed parts of my game to the point that they were on a level close to the highest. So, what is hold up from me making those NBA paychecks? Well, besides from being a 5'11" white guy, i neglected areas in my game in which i lost focus on due to my narrow view of what perfect was and what it took to get there. Some of my game was at 98% while some was at 25%... those things i was 25% at are what cost me, and the things that i excelled at didn't make up for my deficiencies. It is a lesson that i am glad i learned then, so i can do what i love now, play music. The answer, to me, was to keep my drive to succeed, but to step back and redefine what was success was to me, what success is in the area i want to succeed in, and what it is in life in general. Step back, look from a different point of view and see different perspectives so that i can make sure all my hard work is truly taking me down the path that will lead me to where i want to go. It is easy to put the blinders on and go full steam toward what YOU think is the right way. It is hard to open yourself up to being wrong, possibly, and having to change your paradigm. And yet, better late than never. Perfection doesn't always equal success, nor does success always equal perfection. I think knowing that helps me to work on each separately. Spend time on perfecting what i personally want to acheive on the drums, but then also focusing on things that are more in the realm of "practicality". I could work every permutation of a pattern for weeks if i wanted to be nuts about it, or i could be mentally sane and do something i will actually use. It feels great to work something till you own it and i mean OWN IT. Working complex foot ostinatos may get me off as a perfectionistic drummer; but then there are the other things that i need to do as a realist. Like work through something the best i can at the moment and then LEAVE IT alone because the time spent working it to perfection doesn't justify the time i could be spending on something else, practical, that i need to get out of the way. Just my little diddy on the subject.

I too am 1 of those "P-peeps." In theory, anyway. [img]wink.gif[/img]

The advent of the drum machine [as it relates to composed & slickly produced pieces] has furthered the O/C-Disorder of the day...but I'm glad my playg still retains a modicum of human feelg & "looseness" [or is it "slop?!" [img]wink.gif[/img] ] regardless of how hard i am on myself...i empathize w ya, louie... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

There's only one Weckl, Marco, Lang, Mangini ... gee, that list can grow a bit longer...one of each, but many of "the same"...perfectionists. ;c)

Just remember [& i am starting to tell myself this more than ever now] - precise meter doesnt always = a great groovalicious feel...but perhaps it helps with the corporate-pop or math-rock paycheck gig... ;c)

Some incredible replies. ESP mja & matricks. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 19, 2004 04:10 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I agree with fuse... the drum machines don't help with the OCD and THAT is for sure! [img]confused.gif[/img]

Louie's post couldve well been mine...a few of the time[s] [img]wink.gif[/img]
But i feel i'm still workg at it too.

I've used a click or DM on many live gigs & some studio...practicing with them is a great learning tool...but they don't always have to be used in a live situation, esp fusion or world music...let it "breathe," man...

I think, just like the 80's excess rock guitar riffing, that even the overly-infatuated excessive use of them is eventually going to wane its course in live music & some recordgs, stylistically..it's going to get old, everything smack-precise on the beat all the time [if it hasnt already]...isnt this what some in here have bagged on DW, or say, the 2 "MMs," about?!] [img]wink.gif[/img] ...the "clinicality" & strict evenness of it all can become mundane-sounding to the ear after awhile...it's going to come 'round full circle...some things w them are a necessary evil, but some things need to breathe like a living soul...know what I mean?

I'm "over" the "over-use" of the DM...it's time to let a lot of music breathe again, people...I mean, even the high-level studio scenario often has the producers trying to take the "machine" OUT of the machines theyre using & breathe human LIFE into it, ya know?! That "real-feel" thing...even down to trying to master the PROGRAMMING of it into it! Ha! "Why dontcha just hire a REAL drummer, jerky!" [img]tongue.gif[/img]

...Tain, Ersk, Gadd, Hakim, Novak, Kennedy, Chambers, or Husband "dont need no f'n DM"...they ARE human "DMs"...

There's nothing better than a great drummer who can play all day long w a DM/click - playing w/OUT one...[you listening, DW?! You is already a bad mofro; now let's hear how bad you can really be]... J/K [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 20, 2004 12:27 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I believe that it depends on what type of gig you have to justify being a perfectionist. If you are working 90% of the time in the studio recording for singers of different styles or hired to drum with different bands that are not yours, then you would have to be as perfect as they want you to be.

But, there is nothing like playing with musicians who exchange the same feelings on most "live" music. Then the idea is not perfection, but it"s the grooving and playing from the heart that surpasses being perfect. Gigging in clubs, outdoor festivals, etc gives you a chance of being yourself much more. There is more room to try new things, make some mistakes, and even get the chance to correct these mistakes as the set goes on.

Of course, making yourself a better musician needs a certain dose of perfection. For many working drummers, trying to be too perfect opens up doors to having less fun. And isn't having fun part of the whole picture ?

When you see a drummer who is a model of perfection, tell yourself that this same drummer is often a minority, but can also be a model for others. When you see guys like Gadd, Katch?, Vinnie, Weckl, Erskine, and others play, these guys have mastered being perfect for years.

So, the bottom line to me, is not letting perfection get in the way of having fun, grooving and playing from the heart.

Groovissiom

That's basically most of what i was trying to say...well said, groovis. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

I try to play as perfectly as I can - always. Perfect can mean many things. To me it means refining what I'm going for and being able to repeat it the same way easily. I always want good solid time and a deep groove.

By striving to be better than we are, and continuing to challenge ourselves to be better by striving for perfection, we continue to improve and hone our skills. When I make mistakes, I never get upset by them or get angry. They are a natural and inevitable part of progress. I note what went wrong and try and do it better again, but I don't attach any particular importance to a flub. The brain chemicals released with displays of frustration and anger interfere with mnemonic programming. Stress is the enemy of progress and learning. Stay loose, pay attention but don't worry.

Brad

I will tell you one of the BEST practice tools i have EVER used is Reason 2.5
Writing out parts on it via MIDI and then playing along with it. You can alter the type of quantizing you want, or you can quantize certain notes and leave others, or quantize them only to, say, 25% accuracy for a more human feel. You can even write your own schematic for custom quantize-ment. Quantizing from 1/2 notes all the way to 32nd triplets and down to 64ths and to a "true shuffle"... WONDERFUL practice tool. I only brought this up because we are on the subject of studio stuff and DM's. It is great because you can work on being "perfect" but can alter how perfect the tracks you are playing along with are. Like grooving perfectly with a bass line and click, but the bass line is quantized to 32nd triplet feel and only to 35%... that, to me, is great because you get to practice (in the comfort of your own home) making something that isn't mathematically perfect, perfectly musical and perfectly so damn grooving that even the most perfectly un-grooving-ist ass in the world can't help but throw down and shake it to perfection. Or something like that...

...So there...

...Take that...

...People...

I think the drum machine has changed the face of drumming drastically. Everyone (myself included) has become aware of 'the grid' which machines us to create their beats. All those quantized 'feels' in music software are really just different grids.

When I play in the studio now I always end up LOOKING at the music and everytime I play off from the grid I can see it before my eyes.

I am not sure this is a healthy state of affairs for music. Elsewhere drummers have discussed the lack of real drum legends to have emerged in the last five years or so. The guys who have (Marco, Lang, Virgil etc) seem to play in a very 'perfect' way (as opposed to Bonham, Blakey, Elvin etc)

Is this perhaps the concept of perfection being taken too far in music?

...even better said, Brad... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by CLWarunki:
As soon as an artist realizes that there is NO SUCH THING as perfect, then creating and performing becomes much more natural and expressive.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Beautifully put, Chris!

For one thing, I think that we can strive for perfection without being obsessed with it. That's what I always try to do. Playing with total precision is cool, but it's not where my FOCUS is musically when I'm playing--my focus is on where I am in the music and trying to bring something fresh and exciting in terms of my ideas. That's where some players come up short, in my opinion--with their ideas.

Second, being a perfectionist isn't necessarily a problem (I certainly call myself one!) as much as where we focus our efforts to be perfect. Like Brad said, perfection is a pretty blanket concept (notice I used the word "precision" above instead). We should take care not to define it for ourselves solely in terms of machine-like rhythmic accuracy but also in the ability to come up with new & different ideas, phrasing, expression, joy...


-Tom

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 20, 2004 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Tom Hipskind ]</font>

[ah-] HA!
..."So THERE...take THAT...peoples"... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 20, 2004 04:21 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>