Reruns!

In my last topic,I was talking about Steve Smith and how he had "evolved".One thing I have noticed about Smith is that you are going to get the same drum solo night after night.Same licks,same tricks,etc..

I was talking to Randy the other day about that.I have watched alot of drummers over the years and I will go on record and say this.OF ALL THE DRUMMERS I HAVE EVER SEEN,THERE HAS BEEN ONE WHO DOES NOT REPEAT HIMSELF WHENEVER HE PLAYS.THAT MAN IN VINNIE COLAIUTA!!!

Even Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa and everybody since then has had the "reruns".You pick a drummer from anytime period and I will say
"reruns"!

It's worse today than ever.Guys like Lang and Virgil.Great,Yes!! Don't get me wrong,it's not about that.It's about repeating yourself over and over again.There is one drummer that does not repeat himself.

Vinnie Colaiuta- 'nuf said!


"I don't feel good,but i have good feel!"

Neil Peart is so guilty of the "repeat"... Great observation. You also have to take into consideration, that Vinnie is not a solo act like Virgil or Lang... Although Vinnie has done clinics, he is not a solo act by any means. With that being said, Vinnie by far has the deepest bag of lick ideas that I have ever heard. When he does solo, it is always catered to the feel of the music at that particular moment, not a premeditated or structured movement, which we see with Steve Smith, Virgil, Lang, etc....

Mark, nice to see you on the board!

vinnie repeats licks too.

shedder, of course Vinnie repeats licks - everyone does from time to time. I think the point is that he does this the least out of the other big name guys. But, as mentioned this is because he had the deepest bag of tricks to pull from.

Do you guys know if Vinnie ever studied with Freddy Gruber? I was wondering about this the other day.

I know he studied with Richard Wilson; I don't think he studied with Freddie. He doesn't play like it, that's for sure.

yeah vinnie is the man!

thats a very good point that you've got there, we should try and see if we can find anyone else who has a really deep bag or tricks...

i think the reason that some many drummers repeat themselves is because the have 5 or 6 licks..which they can play the hell out of and then they just repeat those licks using different variations etc...like the thomas lang dvd, he had a lot of exercises but after a while the basic rythmic ideas were the same as in previous chapters but played different with a different phrasing or with different orchestrations etc...

The worse thing in the world for music is to have your bag of trix-lix to 'fall back' on.

We ALL have 'em. The thing to do is, FORGET them, & play in the moment w/out any preconception as to what to play, save for the context of the genre or style of tune.

The best players do it this way. They all have their 'bag,' but leave it for the solo clinic trail & not in the music. [Unless it is a parts oriented, like say a pop tune where the song has specific things that are integral to it's pre-written format because it is part of the identifying features of the tune. Rush & DT are like this. NP's drumparts are written solely w the specific rock tune in mind. Not a bad thing. Just not what you want for the more 'loose,' improvisatory music.] Just another 'head' [mindset], or 'bag,' really. It's good to be able to do BOTH.

Shedder is correct - VC does have little things in his arsenal that you can recognize from time to time...& i can hear the Tony in him ENAT, but he has also taken from TW [& many other notables] & made it his OWN...that is norm for everyone, really. Not a bad thing at all. It's just that he just switches it up a little bit all the time...& rarely IF EVER is waiting to throw a 'standard, bagged lick' at you anymore. The guy is a DEEP well of improvisatory ideas from which to draw, which he now instictively pulls up in the moment at will. [Weckl too FTM, AWA many others we hold in such high regard around here. [img]wink.gif[/img] ]

...[But he CAN pistol whip ya to death w his lick & synchopations/accents arsenal too, if'n he wants to...] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 21, 2004 04:52 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I think we are all saying the exact same thing in one way or another...

I can think of a hundred other guys I would bag on about reruns b4 i'd hit SS on it...JMHO...everyone has things in "their bag" that come out & are recognizable from time to time...this is what often contributes to our own "uniqueness"...when i saw SS w Vital Info, & the power went off 4 or 5 times, he did a diff beeyatchin solo each time...it seems what you are really trying to say is that you prefer VC's apprach to SS's...cool...personally, i hear & understand somewhat the criticisms you guys are making, but i can think of a lot of other guys that are deserving of ragging b4 a cat like SS...really. He's a cat who really throws himself out there over the fire so to speak, so naturally this lines him up to be stacked against other players, & to be criticised...but I go w matricks on this one...AWA Elvin's "don't judge something against yours or someone/-thing elses standard, but by it's own merits." ;c) I dont think anyone who ever played w him thought he did a bad job...Gambale must like it, & he also plays w WRECKL. SS's been doing this longer than a lot of us, & had huge success at it early on, while he was still yet evolving, even tho he was still a really good player even back then, & was setting certain trends & standards, & w a resume to prove it...since we were "playing w our own poop." ;c)
While one of my all-time faves is also VC, I dont find it unenjoyable at all to listen to Mr Smith...he holds on fond place in my heart from way back, if even just for prestige & posterity's sake, let alone "chops" & such... ;c)

=========================

Nice story ["Owned by Big bro hehe"] LOL

OK, i have one too. Not a jazz, "world," or fusion music situation, but nevertheless...

I was workg in this country/showtune/oldies band w this egocentric, greedy, manipulative, control-freak frontman [is there any other kind?! J/K - & those are his good points [img]wink.gif[/img] ]...oh, i forgot, "pervayer of the BS" & "gregarious," aka "mouthy." A real "used car-salesman / TV evangelist / politician" kind of guy. The bassist got sick of his BS, so we're lookg for another bassist right b4 a 2+1/2 mo long tour.

The existing gtrist & keybst [very hip & jazz/world/fusion oriented] decide to put modern technology to good use...the keybst will play LH bass on keys, & so, while the keybst solos, the gtrst has a Digitech MIDI sound module unit & gtr pickup, so he switches a bass sound on to play simultaneously as he strums rhythm underneath the keys if it's a keys solo [not many "blue" or "outside" notes in this material [img]wink.gif[/img] ]...[I wont even get into how the frontman tried to rip them financially, in compensating them for this, even tho they were saving him one band members' entire salary PLUS extra hotel room - at his price, it was a small fortune!] ):c/

Then, this keybst leaves because of basically the same, & the frontguy hires another new guy, who's a great reader; he's very classically influenced, but he has trouble improvising on things as simple as a standard pentatonic progression [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [not that he doesnt have the ability / mind / chops for it!] [img]confused.gif[/img] His mind would wander... He has to work everything out & have a "set" plan for solos & such. We try to help "hip him out" to concepts such as are indicative to jazz playg, like improvising & changing up chordal motifs & such [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thinking.gif[/img] ...to little avail... ;c)

So the new keybst goes to do his same solo this 1 partic night [which incidentally he is dedicating to some younger gal in the audience], & the same gtrst has his MIDI rig...which he switches to a piano sound. During the guys' "NP" composed-type piano solo, the gtrst starts plucking "outside" notes...you shoulda seen the new keybst's face on stage...[& been in the bandroom afterwards]...;c)

PS - oh yeah...VC is still da man...&...Tain for prez... ;cP

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 22, 2004 01:48 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

A pretty funny Story. A pretty Famous danish Double Bass Player, Chris Minh doky, was touring with bigbrother; Niels Lang Doky and a couple of their Cats. Well when Doky Solo's you can allways hear it is him, but this time Niels Doky, got enough of it. Assumeable he's been playing the same solo at every gig, Niels Played every note of his Solo simutaniously as Chris Minh was doing his. Everyone was Laughing, pretty funny.

Owned by Big bro hehe.

Freddie Gruber should study with Vinnie. [img]redface.gif[/img]

SS,IMHO, is one of the best impersonators out there. He plays all the hip stuff from other drummers. He does it well. He ain't no slouch, but his playing seems very contrived. Kinda like a greatest hits of everyone else. Another drummer destroyed by the "Trickster Guru" Gruber(anyone read Alan Watts?) [img]graemlins/chat.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 05:00 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]</font>

There was a kb player who used to play with Zappa and all the 70's fusion greats, Alan Zavod.

On one of the YCDTOSA discs, Frank mimics Zavod's VOLCANO SOLO, where he starts low and mashes the keys into one huge crescendo.

It is pretty funny. Frank talks about it in the liner notes.

Thats cool, BR. I dug Zavod a lot aft 1st hearing him w Ponty.

Quote:

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Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
Another drummer destroyed by the "Trickster Guru" Gruber (anyone read Alan Watts?)
Freddie Gruber should study with Vinnie.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL.
I would prob also add, "& even[study] w Weckl." Or even NP, FTM... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Points well-noted about SS, but still; i thought Vital Info 1 [self-titled], 2 [Orion], Global Beat, Fiafiaga had some pretty fine drumming moments in there. I also dug Vitalive a lot, even tho SS does some overplayg in there [img]wink.gif[/img] . But that doesnt bother me much. I'm not going to over-analyze it too much. I've done plenty of that most my life. ;cP

I also thought Tony MacAlpine's 1st album Edge of Insanity was a cool listen [for an 80s neo-classically influenced rock/"metal shred" album], also w Andy West fr the Dregs. Altho the rock-fusion-style drumg on there may have long since been improved upon by the likes of Virg, it still holds up. & Mac is very melodic in his solos on there, within that genre.

Maybe it's his feel that some guys have in question [besides the 'thought-out' approach to licks & technq]...very diff than say VC, DW, or DC's. But i've heard him play very musical, even if it's as you say - when he's not being self-conscious of posture, posterity, or licks [img]wink.gif[/img] [not my words!]

OK, i do have a special place in the ole [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the Stever, but i'm outta here b4 i get accused of as taking a cruise on the "SS Fanboy"... [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Peasche.

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"Vinnie Roolz, Weckl is da man, Virgil's scary, & Tain for Prez..." - [me, sometime the other day]...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 02:01 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I don’t think it would be in Vinnie’s approach to the drums to go to Freddie (I remember to have read somewhere that Vinnie considers he has somewhat of a "street" approach to playing the drums). Or maybe I don’t want him to be Gruberized; cause, is it just me me (and FT maybe), but I feel it sucked an "edge" out of the playing of guys like Dave, S. Smith and Neil. Maybe they feel better in an "ergonomic" way but a little spark seemed to have disappeared.

Here’s how I perceive Vinnie. I don’t feel like he’s a guy who practices technique anymore (like Weckl or S. Smith). I think he develops himself by playing music. He has big ears and his mind is so creative and fast that he can come up with fresh ideas most of the time. Maybe that’s the secret.
Yes, he did his share of shedding to develop hand/foot technique, interdependance and rhythmitic vocabulary in his development years but I feel he concentrated on playing music afterwards.

Does anybody here intimate with Vinnie could correct me if I’m wrong?

I pretty much agree.

But I think it was the other way around...FT was [half] [img]wink.gif[/img] jesting about "FG should study w Vinnie," AOT the other way around. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Maybe it would "street-out" FG! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The whole thing w Weckl [as relates to FG] was, he was experiencing muscular, tendon, & BACK/NECK pain/freezes/pulls AARO his approach & his positioning of each the items in the kit. Esp the ride cymbal way up high to the R a la the 80s fusion guys [Vinnie too] - it looks "really cool" for a live audience [visible hand & arm motion] but seems to cause problems w the cental & upper back muscles & neck after long periods of time. Hence the drop in their RCs by VC & DW, for one.

As someone who uses both acou & E drumkits, i can say that the two feel drastically diff, to me anyway. Ddrum being the best of the E's. The mesh & 'hard' cym pads of other E kits seem, like Randy also has said, to "deconstruct" your acou kit technq & 'feel'...going from 1 to the other, i have found this to be somewhat true...when doing this [switching], it seems that when you get back to the acou aft a while on the E's, my body tends at first to automatically physiologically reject using the 'rebound/bounce-back' techjnq that i've "learned" thus far on the acou kit ["programmed myself"], which is so important...i have to consciously force myself to relax & let the stick do it's thing at first coming back to, a la Weckl, etc, for a little while... [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] It's DEF a 'feel' thing...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 03:18 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

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Freddie Gruber should study with Vinnie.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hahaha.....Good one!

Re: Freddie...

What initially sparked my interest in the whole Freddie Gruber thing was hearing Steve Smith play "Nutville" on the first "Burning for Buddy" disc. I thought that was an absolutely inspired performance, so I figured there must be something to this "secret Gruber technique." I thought that was the key to being able to groove like Steve Gadd and have the physical freedom of Buddy Rich.

I think the "old" Steve Smith and Dave Weckl were much more expressive, but they seemed to have "good days" and "bad days," meaning that sometimes they sounded like they were trying "too" hard to "force" things to happen. Nowadays, they don't ever seem to have those bad days...they are always "letting" things happen naturally...so that's the upside of their studies with Freddie. On the other hand, they seem to be completely focused on technique, rather than expressing themselves, which IMHO, sort of prevents them from having those over-the-top expressive performances.

I agree the new SS sounds like he's just cycling through a small bag of tricks. However, if you check out the Vital Info discs "Fiafiaga," "Easier Done than Said," and "Ray of Hope," you'll hear a much more expressive Steve...much more depth of ideas, and less emphasis on the "speed-swinging" chops.

I think Dennis Chambers said it best..."If people would just play what's in their heart, we wouldn't need teachers like Freddie Gruber." (or "Grupert," as he says)

Re: Vinnie: To Gruber or Not To Gruber...

In that clinic bootleg, he mentions at the beginning that his technique is centered around accents and rebounds and that he uses a lot of wrist in his playing because he thinks that gives you a smoother sound. He also said something about "embracing the rebound."

So, what he's saying is basically consistent with what Freddie teaches, but Vinnie's interpretation of that "style" seems to have turned out much differently than Smith's or Weckl's.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 03:21 PM: Message edited by: mja61 ]</font>

Good post.
Except:

Quote:

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On the other hand, they seem to be completely focused on technique, rather than expressing themselves, which IMHO, sort of prevents them from having those over-the-top expressive performances.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Weckl doesnt fall into this category [img]wink.gif[/img] JMHO
Am I saying he's beyond it, necessarily?
No...er, whoops - i meant, YES. Emphatically. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

... but I need my bag of tricks...

There was a time whenever I listened to gadd, that he always seemed to come up with something new, just when I thought I'd heard everything.
Of course he repeats licks, BUT, always does something to make it sound fresh or different. It's repetition though that characterises each drummer and gives them their identity. We all recognise certain drummers just from the way they play or a lick they do. Certainly, the most important thing to me is, if a drummer is repeating licks and tricks for technical sake only, that can get dull. If, like steve gadd or vinnie, they make it musical, or it has some groove or time to it, then, even with repeats, it'll still move me.